Colin Posted December 6, 2001 Share Posted December 6, 2001 I too am honored to be thought of as being in the same league as Randy and mobile. I clearly am not. I will admit to be a tweaking audiophile. The equipment and movies hold as much allure for me as the music does. I will not admit to stirring up trouble on the AA forums. I try to be helpful. Most of the time I agree with almost all the things that Randy, Ray, Mike and mobile have to say. I only point out areas where I do not agree, not to annoy, but to add another, different view point. Remember, there is no democracy without dissent! Therefore, mobile ... Although they have a bump about 100 Hz, my big old horns roll off quickly at about 40 Hz - just where many acoustic instruments, including the piano, have some of their lowest notes. It may be the inability of the parallel feed 2A3 Paramours to push around the impedance of the woofer, or the same weaknesses that most moderately priced full range speakers have in the sub-bass area, but nonetheless, tube driven Cornwalls do need solid state sub-woofer reinforcement in the lowest movie and music octaves for the optimum listening pleasure. This may be problematic on rumble and "wow" prone LPs, (dig) but it is delightful on CDs and cable movies. ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing This message has been edited by Colin on 12-06-2001 at 01:25 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 6, 2001 Share Posted December 6, 2001 Well, I just prefer all out dissent... No messing around. In fact, if I cant think of something antagonistic to add, I hang back, waiting for something else to come my way; it makes my day much like a Sonny Rollins break in Blue 7 or Hendrix in Bold As Love... Heh... Indeed. Well, if I must admit, I am about as bad as they come tweak wise as well, I just have learned to not focus on it too much. I at one time had all cables elevated, with speaker cable on phone line ceramic insulators and all power cords kept at a distance from the IC and Speaker wire. In addition, all the plugs were inserted with the proper polarity after testing. All components were on either some version of tip toe or puck. I made a Michael Green imitation threaded stand that made the TNT Flexi look Flexi. All my CDs have green ink around the edges. I clean all my vinyl on my VPI 16.5 record vacuum. I never turn off my equipment unless I am not listening for a few days so it all stays warm and stable. The Rega Planet NEVER gets turned off, even when out of town. If I am listening to the Linn, I will leave it on all weekend. All my monitors have lead and sand filled stands with the wire kept away from the metal. I position my speakers with tape marked on the floor after I get the toe in and distance correct, this done with a tape measure and level. My Linn has a separate stand that is level, rigid, yet light. I put deadening materials to dampen the chassis on certain pieces...a california river bed rock with sorbathane bits is on my Creek Passive. My Cary has no top so as to keep the interaction to a minimum. I clean my IC and speaker cable connections once a month. I dont listen to any music for 10 minutes while warming up the tubes if I do turn them off. The Cary preamp NEVER gets totally turned off, only on standby. I dont touch any of the glass on the tubes with my bare hands keeping oils of the glass. I use different tubes for differnt types of music or mood. etc etc etc Yet I have somehow learned not to actually focus on these things, still leaving the music as the main focal point. After years of messing with it, it all starts to become second nature.... or just used to the disease. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 6, 2001 Share Posted December 6, 2001 you sir, are a man after my own heart, we both take something so simple that it is sold to the average American dude off the street by the millions and analyse it and make it so technical that it is no longer just another form of amusing entertainment, but isw now a full blown hobby - says the man in the process of dampening his walls and isolating his cables ... ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 Indeed. By the way, the room is probably one of the most important parts of the sonic picture and placement makes a huge difference. The Cornwall is the first speaker I have ever had actually in the corners of the room (about 15 inches out), however. For monitors and non-horns, you want them OUT from the front and side walls to promote proper imaging and less wall interaction. By the way, the wire dressing, ie speaker cable elevation, IC organization and separation, and power cord isolation (from all other wires) really does pay off in that last little bit of magic you wring from your system. I would seriously recommend this to all that have honed their system to the point where these things are really discernable. Addressing wire layout really brings some dividends although this is hard to even write within a forum that believes that wire makes little to no difference. Also, if you notice, when you change connections and move wire, it sometimes takes up to an hour or more (depending) for the system to snap back into focus. It's almost like the difference when your amps finally are totally warmed up and really sounding there best. Suddenly, it all comes into place. Which brings me to a very important point that I havent seen mentioned in this place. Leaving the equipment on. If you have an all solid state system, I would recommend NEVER turning your gear off, unless it uses a motor. When I had my SS amps, they did not get turned off for 9 years except when out of town for over a week, moving, or during a bad electrical storm. The most stress on equipment comes when the power is turned ON! Ever notice when a light bulb blows? Indeed. On turn on. Once a piece of gear reaches stasis, leaving it on is actually VERY good for it. But most of all, the sound is FAR better. The CD player should NEVER be turned off as this is one of the devices that really takes close to 24 hours sometimes to sound its best. The ONLY things I ever turned off were my Linn turntable (even then I would leave it on a few days if doing a lot of listening), and my Nakamichi tape decks, which use a motor that sometimes runs continuously. Some NAKS dont (most NAKS have three separate motors). As for tube equipment, it gets a bit more tricky. If you are doing a lot of listening, I would go ahead and leave my amps on, sometimes for several days at a time or more. If, on the other hand, you know you wont be listening for awhile, it is good to turn them off. Remember, the LAST thing you want to do with a tube component is turn it off and on all the time. This puts tremendous stress on the tubes. Although, tube rectification goes a long way in helping this as it does not allow the blast of power to hit the tubes all at once since the rectifier tubes allow for a slow warmup. As for my preamp, it has a separate standby so it is on all the time. My 6SN7 and 5692 tubes have lasted for up to 10 years (NOS RCA and CBS 5692 and 5691). For those worried about power consumption and energy conservation, you have to take this into account, perhaps by conserving more elsewhere. But as I told Mike Lindsey in a separate mail, leaving your equipment on is actually one of the best things for IT and the sound, especially for solid state gear. At the radio station where I worked, we NEVER turned the amps off...EVER. For years and years. Problems? Not a one. One NAD integrated in the control room went from 1982 to 1996 without ever being turned off except when the power went out!! Not one blip.... the little swine ran like a top! For all I know, it still is on as I type... kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-07-2001 at 09:24 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 Mobile, They have been on ever since you told me. I will also try some of your other suggestions as well... Thanks a lot, Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 I have heard of most of these little tweaks that you mention, in fact one of the reasons that I am isolating my power cords is because one of the big differences between your $3 black cable and high end cords is that they have better isolation, my point on the speaker wires (at another topic) was that many wires do not have the exact same line levels at the same frequencies and although we all know that some human ears can discern a 3 dB difference in level, according to the $sensible Sound and Tom Nousine, tests show that some ears can discern a 1 dB difference in level at some frequencies, so differences in things like speaker wires and amps might simply be the accurate perception of a difference in minute levels - I believe that many tweaks are audible, and even though they may make a "different difference", they are usually so economical that it makes sense to go ahead and use them, but my question, mobile, is have you ever seen a tweak that you didn't like? ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 Have I ever seen a tweak that I didn't like? hmmmm.... OF COURSE. Plenty. I could rip off a list of a dozen or more that I found degrade the sound in my experience, and some that would work in one system and be absolutely useless in others! I have pretty much given up on Navcom pucks under any equipment as I think it slows the system down. I used to use them under CD Players and tube equipment depending. I like them on neither. I find that bearings or good cones work far better under amps, this even compounded with a sand base underneath. I have also found air bladders work very well under tube amps although I hate the look. Dampening cabinets and adding sand can be TOO MUCH of a good thing. You don't want to deaden the sound and remove some of the life. Sometimes this is VERY easy to do with speakers. I am going to be very cautious when dampening my horn drivers with my CW even though most recommend multiple layers. I have seen this backfire. Ditto with too much deadening weight on a component and a speaker. Sometimes this can kill some of the magic even though it is usually advisable to a certain point. I have never found power conditioners to be free of negative traits on my system. While it does bring a blacker background at times, I have found most of them rob the system of some dynamics and life, many reeling in the sense of air a tad. I have found good things with conditioners but have found that having a dedicated line that is properly grounded with good outlets to be even more effective, that is, if you have good power to begin with. I certainly think that power amps should NEVER go on conditioners as I have never heard this work totally without some corruption. Different stands and tweaks work for different things as said above. The Linn Sondek LP-12 HATES a solid, heavy, mass, sturdy stand, sounding dead and losing its rhythmic bounce and timing. It much prefers a very rigid, yet light stand. On the other hand, the VPI HW19 likes a massive stand that is deadened and solid as a rock. I have to move my Linn LP-12 from my threaded rod stand as it sounded like a rotating pumpkin with a top hat. Speaker wires and ICs can be a godsend in one system and a ho-hum in another. As said on here time and time again, some wire is bad for certain equipment and better on others depending on impedance matching and amp construction. Then again, there are certain wires that seem to be pretty good on everything, like the Kimber 8TC and the Jon Risch designed DIYCable.com Twisted Cross Connect. Some wire seems to do better with CD players as well... I always thought my Transparent cable did well between the CD and preamp. Another device that I don't particularly like is tube dampers or rings. Once again, I feel they bring more harm then good. But as for cables, I would ALWAYS try to isolate your cables and route them in ways that made sense, keeping the wires apart as much as possible. The less interaction with other wire, the better. So as you see, Colin, I have MANY things that I have tried that do not work in all situations. Room treatment is a whole different can of worms that can be VERY rewarding and also VERY hard to nail down. One last note, speaker toe in and out does also vary with the type of speakers. Some horns actually liked to be crossed well in front of the listener's head so don't use one rule as steadfast. You can also tame things a bit with speaker positioning as you know. This requires much patience and experimentation. Of course, one might want to throw this to the wind and just sit back and enjoy the music without worrying about such matters...and to be honest, I wouldnt argue. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conductor Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 Just wondering. Are there any 12 step programs for tweak freaks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 Indeed. Step One: To hell with the system, pick out your recordings that make you want to air conduct and twirl about like a whirling dervish. Who needs isolation cones when you are going berserk to Guided by Voices, Pete Townshend, or Count Basie? Step Two: Find a good 60s American car with a cheap AM radio and remember what it was like to BLARE the 60s hits at top volume while hitting 80 on a backroad and coming near floating off the road into a bridge abutment in your Galaxy 500. Still, did you ever enjoy music as much? Step Three: Ditch all AudioFool gobbledegook and get a decent integrated, TT, and CD player (and your favorite speaker, of course). Throw your money you save into your collection and dont look back. I have done all these things at times during my long involvement with music. I recommend them highly. kh s y s t e m Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point Rega Planet Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Creek OBH-12 Passive Preamp Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks DIYCable Wire - Various 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico EICO HF-81 - btw, perfect Cornwall match ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL ProAc Mini-Towers EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner Sumo Aurora Tuner Nakamichi CR-7af>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-07-2001 at 12:32 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted December 8, 2001 Share Posted December 8, 2001 Mobile---Another good move is to get a good, low distortion mono rig, based on a single Cornwall say. Then you just listen to the music instead of depth, imaging, soundstage and all that. I've used several mono rigs and they can be quite enjoyable, they can really let you get into the performence. I like to listen to my Altec 605As while laying on the couch along the side wall. I'm hearing very little stereo and missing lots of the highs but the listening is nice. And your comments on listening to AM radio back in the 60s is on the money. "Satisfaction" was never better than the first time I heard it, over a car radio it was. I also liked listening to WLS through the earphone on my little Zenith transitor radio at night--Beatles, Beach Boys, Motown, Stax--great listening. I reckon great music is the most important thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 8, 2001 Share Posted December 8, 2001 Tom, I agree on the mono sound per say but I have to admit, I have never actually set up a mono speaker as this was actually more inconvienent space-wise than your typical stereo set up with speakers to sides of rooom. But I actually listen to mono every day with my vintage EICO HFT-90 all tube mono FM tuner from the mid 50s. The uncompressed public stations (NPR and College stations) sound amazing through this vintage piece and I actually think mono is more enjoyable at times. I have the tuner hooked up to the mono input of my EICO HF-81 and the sound is excellent. I have a $650 Sumo Aurora Tuner that received accolades and I still think the vintage EICO HFT-90 is more musical(see link - not for sale). In addition, I have a large collection of 50s jazz that was recorded in mono as were some Beatles and other early rock bands. I think mono reproduction really CAN be some of the best sound. Still, I have not attempted to reproduce mono recordings from one speaker. I also agree with you 100% that it is ultimately the MUSIC that is the most important thing, and something that should overide the hobby aspect of the audio game. Having been immersed in both sides fairly heavily (played in many bands, ran an analog recording studio, and was an engineer/reviewer/DJ in a college radio station) I feel I can separate the hobby/audiogoon aspect, not letting it get too out of hand. Still, the equipment is facinating to me and I love anything that will get me closer to the music, making it feel less like a reproduction with nothing between me and the event. But sometimes, one misses the innocence of enjoying the music without giving the reproduction, per say, a second thought. There is something magical about a mono car radio with rolled off highs blasting Under My Thumb or Can't Explain within the cavity of a bench seat monster. Indeed, sometimes it just doesnt get any better, involvment wise...and this with horns, tube amps, dedicated wire, listening chair about as far away from the picture as humanly possible. And perhaps in some ways, that was when it all was the most pure... kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-08-2001 at 02:12 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 8, 2001 Share Posted December 8, 2001 thanks mobile,for all of that, I will stop my tweaking and go for a top down ride instead - I too am pleasantly surpised at how good my beat-up old mono Blaupunkt tube EL84 radio can sound... ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted December 13, 2001 Share Posted December 13, 2001 Gregorius, It is not the SET amp per se that doesn't have the power. I just received a pair of Welborne Labs Moondogs rated at 3.25wpc and at first listen they are simply awesome. Much more power than the Zen's I tried at the same wpc rating (IMHO, in my room with my equipment, YMMV). I have only listened for an hour so far but these babies are incredible. Talk about bass...whoever said SETs don't have bass should listen to the Moondogs with a pair of Khorns! ------------------ Ed W This message has been edited by edster00 on 12-13-2001 at 10:01 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 Ole Ed... Seems someone else within the confines of the Klipsch forum finally decided to taste ye olde 2A3 Moondogs(even if it is with the pool table). Glad you like them, Ed. Wait till you hear the midrange magic improve with the NOS RCA Black Plates and 6SN7/5692 options. Although the KR2A3 has nice extension, it is the least musical 2A3 I have heard, but IS very quiet and extended. Still, it is a very impressive tube in the low end via the Moondogs. In addition, you have the every expensive Black Gate cap in the power supply as well as the magical Jensen Copper Foil Oil caps. These coupling caps mate very well with horns and the Black Gate is wonders for the silence between notes. Well, someone else can finally tell the others within how magical a SET amp such as the Moondog can be... Just wait till you finish out the whole package. That amp has many personalities depending on tube selection. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 Mobile, You decide to sell your Moondogs yet? Yes folks, there is audible differences in wire, BELIEVE IT OR NOT! I leave my stuff turned off due to safety concerns. (Sh*tty Trailerhouse.) You ever posted this subject on AA?(Leaving gear on.) Curious to what debates that could stir up. Have you tried or receive your JR filter yet? Or were you getting one of these? THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 Not selling the Moondogs as my DIY exploits are not going to be coming to fruition anytime soon. I was only selling them to make some "all out" amps...and they would have to be some REALLY all out gear to better my current amps. As for the equipment on, what is the safety aspect you are referring to? You mean with old vintage tube amps or equipment in general? There is almost ZERO safety hazard with leaving SS equipment on 24 hours a day. Some feel a bit nervous leaving their vintage tube equipment on but as for modern SS amps, there is really no cause for concern. Actually, I have discussed this in the SET Asylum (Single Ended Triode Asylum) many times. Do a search in there and something should come up. As for the JR Power Source I hope to be getting one very soon. I do the website for www.DIYCable.com so I get sent a lot of their stuff for pictures. I have yet to hear the JR Power Source though but others have said it is excellent. I personally am not a big fan of power filters as you might have read but I do want to try the JR. I AM a big fan of the DIYCable wire as it has replaced all my previous choices. Kevin does a really nice job with the prepackaged wire and definitely has some top notch kits of all types. His wire does really well with the Cornwalls and 2A3 amps. I was just given it to get pics for the site and ended up using it as my own! Was really surprised how well it did. I recommend it highly (Superlative, Fat Ones, and Twisted Cross Connect Speaker Wire). kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 quote: Originally posted by mobile homeless: ...Which brings me to a very important point that I havent seen mentioned in this place. Leaving the equipment on... kh Mobile: This topic, and many others, have and do get discussed in this forum. These discussions just happened before you got here. Just a friendly reminder that there are now over 8000 members on this board, and you can't really stereotype us into one bunch. Some people here do think wire makes a difference while others don't. Some prefer SS, others prefer tubes. There are people here who are running SET amps. Some members use AVR receivers in multi-channel systems while others use separates in two-channel only. There are some who have thousands and thousands of dollars invested in their systems and there are those who only have Pro-Medias. We all have different tastes, viewpoints, preferences, budgets, and priorities. The one common thing we share is that we are all Klipsch fans. I am happy to learn that you are now part of this club. BTW: I have enjoyed reading your contributions to this forum. Keep up the good work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 Glad to hear that about the past contributions; obviously, it would be extremely short sighted to assume that things of this nature have not been discussed here in the past. Good point. Unfortunately, I wish more of these guys were around these days! Where's the cavalry? Heh.... Anyway, thanks for the response and point well-taken kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 Mobile... One other question, you don't leave your Moondogs on 24/7 do you? Inquiring minds want to know! ------------------ Ed W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 Ed, to be honest, and some might find this hard to believe, but I have had my 2A3 Moondogs on for the last three weeks because after a Sovtek to RCA JAN CRC VT95 (1944) Black Plate switch, along with the Cary for the passive, the sound suddenly got magical and has been that way ever since! So, to answer your questions, sometime I do leave them on for days at a time. Generally, I'll leave them on for a few days and then off overnight and half a day and then on a few days more. This cycles repeats. For those interested, here are what Ed's amps look like. My Moondogs have the nameplate on the long side allowing the tubes to face front - although I would still face the tubes front no matter where the plate was as it looks much better, hence it sounds better! Heh... My amps also have the MagneQuest DS-025 output transformers instead of Electraprint. One good thing to consider is that the Moondogs employ the Mullard GZ-37 rectifier which is an extremely nice sounding rectifier tube and also has one of the slowest warmup times at over 30 seconds or more, allowing the tubes to fully warm without a shock. It also happens to be one of the most beautiful tubes and is much better looking than a standard 5AR4/GZ-34. (BTW, you can substitute the 5AR4 for a slightly more extended bottom with a less magical midrange) To further answer your question, I think the Moondogs actually need an hour warmup to sound pretty good but in your case, they sometimes will keep improving in sound for up to a WEEK (!) since your Black Gate cap (a VERY $$$$ cap over $100) sometimes takes a LONG time to fully charge and sound its best. So once you get a good setup going, try leaving it on for awhile and see if you notice this. I have noticed that mine have sounded better after a day or two on. Try running them with your best active tube preamp and tell me how it does. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-14-2001 at 09:47 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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