Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 11, 2007 Mallette, Hope you plan trip to Austin soon. Would love to hear the Beatles. On DBX, I knew I was only using NR, but have always wanted to get an expander. Which unit do you have, or were you referring to that had all of those features? Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Travis I had a DBX expander a while back sold it, if you ever get one be really carefull not to over do it. As you can blow your tweeters in a heartbeat. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 12, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2007 Larry, you only need shim if you have metal and plastic. As you know, 7" mostly plastic. I think what you are talking about is the "cross-talk when you play a pre-recorded tape and you are in the blank portion before the music starts to play on side two you can hear,faintly, side two playing in reverse. If this occurs on every precorded tape you have your heads may or may not be out of allignment. I would try recording a tape, on side one I would leave a 2 min. space before you start recording on side one. Record about 5 mins worth of music. On side two I would record someting on the last three mins of tape. Flip in over and play side one, you should hear NOTHING for the first two minutes, in otherwords Track 1 and 3 are in play and they should not be picking anything up from tracks 2 and 4, if they are you will hear music in reverse. This assumes a blank tape. If you are taping over an old tape this does not eliminate the possibility that your erase head is not erasing throughly enough. If you hear nothing during the blank space on side one, you flip it and start 5 mins from the end of side two, you should not hear anything for the first two minutes and then the music will start again with three mins left. If you have nothing in the spaces that are blank your heads are in great alignment. If it is only on a pre-recorded tapes that you hear this then it might be the equipment that it was recorded on or it could be fixed with shims. I am attaching a photo with a metal real on the botton with a plastic reel on top, you can see that plastic is more then twice as thick as metal. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 12, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2007 This view shows a metal reel on bottom, a plastic reel in the middle, and on the very top a shim which is hard to see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 12, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2007 Here is a photo of a shim on the spindle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I think what you are talking about is the "cross-talk when you play a pre-recorded tape and you are in the blank portion before the music starts to play on side two you can hear,faintly, side two playing in reverse. If this occurs on every precorded tape you have your heads may or may not be out of allignment. If it is only on a pre-recorded tapes that you hear this then it might be the equipment that it was recorded on or it could be fixed with shims.Thanks, Travis. No, I'm talking about reverse-channel spillover that is heard throughout some but not all of my pre-recorded tapes and it's very distracting. I've recorded very little with my A-700 and I am pretty sure there's no spillover on those tapes. I wasn't aware of the shims. Pre-recordeds were recorded on high-speed duplicators and I think they could get out of alignment. The Revox has good tape guides, so I wouldn't have expected that reel thickness can throw off the tape alignment. Fine photos as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Do any of you guys have any pre-recorded tapes for 2 track recorded at 3 3/4 speed? Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 12, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2007 I think what you are talking about is the "cross-talk when you play a pre-recorded tape and you are in the blank portion before the music starts to play on side two you can hear,faintly, side two playing in reverse. If this occurs on every precorded tape you have your heads may or may not be out of allignment. If it is only on a pre-recorded tapes that you hear this then it might be the equipment that it was recorded on or it could be fixed with shims.Thanks, Travis. No, I'm talking about reverse-channel spillover that is heard throughout some but not all of my pre-recorded tapes and it's very distracting. I've recorded very little with my A-700 and I am pretty sure there's no spillover on those tapes. I wasn't aware of the shims. Pre-recordeds were recorded on high-speed duplicators and I think they could get out of alignment. The Revox has good tape guides, so I wouldn't have expected that reel thickness can throw off the tape alignment. Fine photos as usual. Yeah, it drives me nuts too Larry. If it is just on some pre-recorded tapes and not all of them, then it is in fact those terrible 3.75 Ips tapes that they made at 40 or 60 Ips. They do get way out of alignment. If you are getting reverse-channel spilover just on prerecorded then it is just crappy recording. However, on higher quality tapes, from the 60's at 7.5 Ips, especially an Ampex pre-recorded, there should be no spilover. The Revox guides are the best in the business, and I don't think shims are going to help you. What shims to is take the pressure off the tapes guides. While they will guide the tape through fine, if there is too much pressure on the side of the tape it will cause the tape to bow which lifts it off the head (either record or playback) and there is a hugh drop in the S/N ratio. On machines without as precise guides as a Revox, they can fix, to some extent, reverse-channel spilover (RCP). The long and the short of it is that I have several lower quality tapes where RCP is quite noticable, but the older high quality tapes have no RCP whatsoever. I would say there is only a problems if you have RCP on every pre-recorded tape you own, that shold not be. If you have a photo of your Revox I would love to see it. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 12, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2007 Do any of you guys have any pre-recorded tapes for 2 track recorded at 3 3/4 speed? Jay No, but I have a few at 7.5 ips, which most of them were back then (the late 50's). They go for big money now, they are of superior quality recording wise. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Tip from the old days: If you are VERY anal about crosstalk, store your tapes tails out. This was standard practice in the broadcast industry. Crosstalk forms at a rate highest immediately after recording, then at a decreasing rate. Tapes at all quality levels, including Grandmaster 476, are susceptible to crosstalk in my experience, though the thinner (1 mil, if I recall correctly) tapes are much more susceptible. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 12, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2007 Tip from the old days: If you are VERY anal about crosstalk, store your tapes tails out. This was standard practice in the broadcast industry. Crosstalk forms at a rate highest immediately after recording, then at a decreasing rate. Tapes at all quality levels, including Grandmaster 476, are susceptible to crosstalk in my experience, though the thinner (1 mil, if I recall correctly) tapes are much more susceptible. Dave That is a good point, but what you are talking about has mainly to do with print through where the recording on one layer of tape imparts itself on an adjacent layer of tape. Rewinding the tape (tales in) is not as uniform a wind and is much tighter which was documented in Ampex White papers as resulting in higher print through. Leaving the tapes, tales out, from a normal play leaves a very uniform wind and less tape tension. Ampex also did papers on print through as a function of time, the longer the time the more print through. 457 is the 1 mil Ampex 3600 feet, and 457 is the 1.5 mil, 2400 feet. Unfortunately, what Larry was talking about won't be cured with tails in or tails out, the prerecorded tape was recording at very high speed and was misaligned and so track 2 bleeds over a bit onto track 1 and so on, resulting in you being able to hear the other side of the tape being played in reverse during quiet passages of the side you are playing. You do bring up a great point, you should never store a tape that has been rewound or fast-forwared to the end. Regardless of what side it is on, you want a nice uniform wind for storage purposes. Air, humidity, and other harmful things have a much tougher time reaching the recorded area of a tape if it is wound in a nice even uniform manner. You can instantly spot a tape that has been fast forwarded or rewound by all of the uneven portions of tapes sticking out. There areas usually buckle and become quite brittle if left in this condition for any lenght of time. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Hey Travis, Do you have any of those R2R tapes you may want to part with? Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 23, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 23, 2008 Hey Travis, Do you have any of those R2R tapes you may want to part with? Jay Which tapes? New, prerecorded, the Tape Project Tapes? I bought up all of the Quantagy 456 I could find, I have 100's of pancakes, and also a lot of GP9 (3M 996). If you need blank I might be willing to part with some if you need it, but new is easy to get again. The Tape Project Tapes are just coming in, 2 track 15 IPS and they are 200 a tape if you buy a subscription, and my first tapes are coming in, which is the blues and jazz, so I don't think I will be wanting to part with those anytime soon, if ever. As far as prerecorded tapes from the 50's, 60's and 70's I am up to about 400 now. I am trying to collect every one of the Rolling Stone Top 500 Albums of All Time List in prerecorded tape. About 300 on that list were available in PR tape. The other day I got together about 30 prerecorded tapes that were either duplicates or stuff I was not interested in that I had aquired as part of larger collections. I was going to send them to a lady I know in California to sell on ebay for me. I think there is a Doors in there and a very valuable Zeppelin III. If you are interested I can send you a list. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Travis email sent thanks. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 24, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 24, 2008 As far as prerecorded tapes from the 50's, 60's and 70's I am up to about 400 now. I am trying to collect every one of the Rolling Stone Top 500 Albums of All Time List in prerecorded tape. About 300 on that list were available in PR tape. Travis Interesting hobby there! On average, how do these PR tapes compare to other sources of that material? Mark, Now that is a very good question. If you read all of the hype, there should be no high-end left in a recording that is over 20 years old. However, if tapes are stored properly, according the the Ampex white papers, there should be no problems in frequency response even after 50 years. So they have to have been stored properly, that is about 70, no more then 20% humidity, vert. and not after being rewound or fast forwarded. That is, played normally with a nice ticgh even pack. The Ampex, Capitol, Columbia, Magtec 7.5 IPS 4 track tapes are consistently better then the vinyl. These were recorded with Ampex equipment in double time and then 4X slaves, and were second generation from the mix down master. They are at least one generation better then an LP, a duplicate of the master was sent to the tape duplicating faciliity, that was run at 15 IPS, the slaves at same speed. Later they went to 30 IPS which was 4X speed duplication. This was no problem, as the industry started out at 30IPS, guides, tape tolerence, etc. was all good at this speed. Most of the 3.75 IPS that was recorded by Ampex, Capitol, RCA, Columbia is also quite good and for the most part equal to or exceeds the vinyl counterpart. The big problem is with Columbia House Record Club tapes. These tapes are easy to spot, they all Cat. numbers that begin with 1R1 or 1RC1. These tapes were available in the latter 70's until the very early 80's. The masters that were used to make these can vary a great deal, what generation, etc. More importantly, they were recorded on 60IPS machines, the equipment was just not good enough to support that kind of speed and so you have a major reduction in FR, in S/N ratio and channel seperation as well as print-through. They are hit and miss. The 2 track from the 50's were recorded on mylar, which is a good thing, it does not degenerate, and they are almost always far superior to the vinyl of that era. R2R in the 50's was for the super elite. A 2 track tape in 1958 went for about $17.00. I believe an LP might have been $2 if that. It was for the serious audiophile. The last 2 track tapes were made in about '59. I brought Kind of Blue to Larry Clare's last Strathmore affair, this was the 4 track, manufactured in 1960, it was played on Larry's Revox machine and everyone who heard it agreed it was the superior to the vinyl. In fact, a few people who heard it have either purchased r2r equipment or are in the process of doing so. The problem with R2R is that it is a headache, like with any vintage gear, but even more so. More so becasue there is a mechnical component to it on top of the electrical and depending on the machine, a lack of parts. But there is something to it because you look at what the great mastering people use, that some bands still insist on recording on tape. There are companies that do nothing but restore and keep Ampex equipment in tip top shape, that relap heads so that they can be reused. Tim de Paravinici of EAR Audio has made a lot of money building the preamps for this analog recording equipment and that would be my ultimate goal, his preamps on a very nice transport. The other problem is with the software, the tapes can sometimes be in bad shape. There are a few very good sellers on ebay and they stand behind what they sell, and are accurate in what they describe, so I have not really had a problem buying from them. Now here is the best part, the cost. It has been a great secret for me, but I would rather see more people get enjoyment out of it then hold back, but I have talked about this before here in this forum. As an example, about 2 years ago I bought a sealed copy of Kind of Blue for less then $150.00. A still sealed first pressing of KOB, stereo, just sold on ebay for $1,500. There is of course much, much more demand in vinyl then R2R and the prices are going to be way up. If you are more into the music then the collectability, R2R is the way to go in my opinion. The sound is equal or better, and it is way cheaper then the vinyl route. However, your children and other heirs will not reap as much benefit when it comes time to sell off your collection of tape then if you had bought all vinyl. Although, 10 years ago a KOB R2R might have been $25 or 50. Now the big current rave, that the verdict is still out on, is The Tape Project. My first tapes will be coming in soon. 15IPS 2 tracks, straight from the original stereo masters, Rollins' Sax Colosus, Evans' Waltz for Debby, we believe and hope that these will be the best versions of these masterpieces that have ever been made available to the public. They in fact should be, they are at least 1, and in some cases as many as 3 generations better then the original vinyl pressings. Mark, I am hoping someday to hear that you are going to be at a show close enough that we can set up my tape system with a Tape Project tape in your booth/suite as the source material for your Juicy Music equipment and then you can decide for yourself. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Given the insane prices for these PR tape it makes way more sense to me to purchase a good microphone and start hiring some musicians to come over and make some music. Then you will have a collection of 1st generation recordings of interest and will be supporting local talent. The variety of music available either in vintage or those new tapes seems rather limited to me (at least in my areas of interest). I happened onto what appears to be a very nice Teac X-1000 (someone's thrift store find I received in trade). I need to figure out how to use it. Is this a good one? Was looking for something to do with it. I am serious about the idea of recording one's own music, just to have interesting audiophile stuff to play back and enjoy. I looked at those Tape Project offerings, only a couple of which I might be interested in, and they are over $300 each! You know what kind of fantastic music you can get by hiring some local geniuses for the price of one PR tape, and have a nice little party with the machine running? Just tell them that you will not issue the material without a further "contract" for remuneration. Just for home use. There are some amazing microphones available quite reasonably these days. I see not point collecting a limited handful of titles for such insane money when there are so many talented musicians everywhere who would be thrilled to get $50 each to have some fun at a recording party. It would be a fun hobby too and you would learn some basics about recording, and even if you recorded primitively it would probably be great and real. Just an idea and my two cents. -? ? ? (©fini) c&s an afterthought: it just occurred to me that this idea lends itself more to the kind of music I like and the abundance of musicians in my area. Obviously this idea would not provide things like the complete Rolling Stones. There are a lot of bluegrass and jazz musicians around here and that is more like what I was thinking about. also, musicians might be paranoid that the recording might be exploited and they might not work such little money if a recording is being made....so there are some things to work out with this idea..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 also, musicians might be paranoid that the recording might be exploited and they might not work such little money if a recording is being made....so there are some things to work out with this idea..... Now you are on the right track. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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