Question for Bodcaw Boy (Roy)

[sfogg]

Roy,

"actually it not that bad to add eq although remember that the horn is
basically another 12 db/octave high pass filter and so you would have
add quite a bit and of course"

That
12dB/octave rolloff is on top of the drivers rolloff... correct? In
other words for a driver in a sealed enclosure inside a horn would you
end up with roughly a forth order rolloff if they both popped out at the same time? If so I'd assume 6th order rolloff
for a 'droned' horn?

Thanks,

Shawn

[bodcaw boy]

good question shawn,

if the filters have the same corner frequency (and no, that is not how often you get sent to the corner, deano!), then the slopes are additive. you have 12 db highpass for a sealed system; 12 db highpass for a horn cutoff freq; then if you vent the horn, you have another 12 db highpass; so in total 36 db/octave. so simplistically, you have quite a steep cutoff......

and oh on the top end you would have a mass rolloff, 6 db low pass and an inductance rolloff, another 6 db low pass for 12 db/octave low pass....

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[mas]

oh mas mas mas......(which in spanish means "more"......how appropriate),

the specs are for comparison. believe it or not, and hold on to your britches........(we have polar data, ease data, ease programs and we help the cinema guys layout auditoriums with these...) and we only supply them to those that actually use the products....sorry more, er i mean mas.

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

ps at least i didn't have to pull out the dictionary this time.......next year's resolution.....i promise to use 1/3 less words.....i promise to use 1/3 less words.....i promise to use 1/3 less words.....tap tap tap (heels).......

I wondered why, when we called to inquire as to how one who had spent the silly $5K for the toy version of EASE (+ AURA & EARS) might obtain files for use with the full version of EASE, we were told there were none.

I guess when we called and asked that we didn't use enough words! Or maybe the problem was that we used English!

As if the files would be of use to those who don't use the programs! As I could see how the various programs and measurement tools have so many other uses other than...hmmm...gee, what other uses DO TEF, SMAART, EASRA and EASE have?

Corporate engineering simply outdid themselves in either not knowing, or of acting amazingly as if they did not know what they were as they stated that the resources were not available!

A truly exemplary performance. It was so realistic!

Pass on my apology for positing such a complicated question. Maybe a picture will help...Or a note from my mom...[][]

[Coytee]

Soooooooooo, is that you on the right?

[8-|]

[bodcaw boy]

oh mas mas mas......(which in spanish means "more"......how appropriate),

the specs are for comparison. believe it or not, and hold on to your britches........(we have polar data, ease data, ease programs and we help the cinema guys layout auditoriums with these...) and we only supply them to those that actually use the products....sorry more, er i mean mas.

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

ps at least i didn't have to pull out the dictionary this time.......next year's resolution.....i promise to use 1/3 less words.....i promise to use 1/3 less words.....i promise to use 1/3 less words.....tap tap tap (heels).......

I wondered why, when we called to inquire as to how one who had spent the silly $5K for the toy version of EASE (+ AURA & EARS) might obtain files for use with the full version of EASE, we were told there were none.

I guess when we called and asked that we didn't use enough words! Or maybe the problem was that we used English!

As if the files would be of use to those who don't use the programs! As I could see how the various programs and measurement tools have so many other uses other than...hmmm...gee, what other uses DO TEF, SMAART, EASRA and EASE have?

Corporate engineering simply outdid themselves in either not knowing, or of acting amazingly as if they did not know what they were as they stated that the resources were not available!

A truly exemplary performance. It was so realistic!

Pass on my apology for positing such a complicated question. Maybe a picture will help...Or a note from my mom...[][]

tsk, tsk, tsk,

i need a note from your mom so she can see how you are acting, young man!!

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[mas]

oh mas mas mas......(which in spanish means "more"......how appropriate),

the specs are for comparison. believe it or not, and hold on to

your britches........(we have polar data, ease data, ease programs and

we help the cinema guys layout auditoriums with these...) and we only

supply them to those that actually use the products....sorry more, er i

mean mas.

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

ps at least i didn't have to pull out the dictionary this time.......

Cute.

Klipsch claimed not to have them. They did not simply refuse them.

It is something to make a claim, and another thing to actually do it. I think it has something to do with another word: "integrity".

Sometimes words mean things. Other times they are simply noise and air.

A dictionary might help.

[mas]

BTW, here is an example of how a company presents their specs; of course some of their customers aren't totally confused by them and a few actually know what specs are used for. You don't even have to know the secret handshake.

ftp://ftp.eaw.com/

ftp://ftp.eaw.com/Loudspeaker_Product_Info/

(Home page: http://www.eaw.com/ )

And
while I do not expect anyone who does not use a tool such as EASE to be
intimate with it, the attachment is an EAW PDF that accompanies their
data for importation into EASE. Others may get a very small idea of a
little of what they may be used for. (EASE is a Large acoustical space
modeling system that allows you to accuretely model a space - think
importing an AutoCad room/auditorium drawing, specifying room surfaces,
reflective and absorptive coefficients, speaker data and predicting the
acoustical performance and anomalies of the space. You can also listen
to the before and after states with the EARS module at any spot in the
space.)

But be very
careful. Such data may result in your better understanding the actual
performance of the speakers in a space and in conjunction with other speakers (as opposed to your assuming their
behavior) and thus can be both very confusing and very, very dangerous (sic). It will soon become very apparent why the availability of such data must be very carefully controlled! NOT!

You might be interested in taking a look at some powerful tools for acoustical modeling.

For data regarding EASE, AURA and EARS: http://www.renkus-heinz.com/ease/index.html

For an interactive tour of the products' capabilities: http://www.renkus-heinz.com/ease/ease_intro/intro_about_ease.html

For tutorials regarding EASE : http://www.renkus-heinz.com/support/software-support/ease_support/tutorials/tutorials.html

DSAClusterDLLInstructions.pdf

[Parrot]

mas,

I think what the Bad Cowboy is trying to say is that unless you are willing to buy a theaterful of Klipsch cinema speakers, he's not going to supply you with the info.

Also, keep in mind what Dean said back on page 10:

If you email Roy and act stupid (like you don't know anything), he
tells you all kinds of cool stuff. If you email him and act like you
know a thing or two -- he clams up and doesn't tell you anything. I act
real stupid, so I have lots of cool emails.

[mas]

So you buy it and then they will provide the data! ROFLMAO!

Or you buy the speakers and then an acoustical consultant designer can see if they would be an optimal match for a particular application.

Right!

That is the most @ss backwards strategic marketing plan yet encountered!

Give us the money for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and we just might tell you what it can do. ...Especially if you act stupid. LOL!

Here's a better answer. Why should any consultants and designers spec them when there are plenty of companies who not only specialize in state of the art commercial product lines, but who are also more than willing to not only provide data, but to provide value added services that help consultants to spec and recommend their products?

No wonder they are running EAW, Renkus Heinz and Community* out of business! NOT!

* (and others. But subjecting you to Meyer is not a nice thing to do to a friend!)

[edwinr]

mas, it's easy to post in a way that could be misinterpreted, particularly if someone's in a rush or busy at work. I think Roy is a riot. He's also a right pain in the a... Cute doesn't enter into it! [:|]

[Parrot]

Here's a better answer. Why should any consultants and designers spec them when there are plenty of companies who not only specialize in state of the art commercial product lines, but who are also more than willing to not only provide data, but to provide value added services that help consultants to spec and recommend their products?

No wonder they are running EAW, Renkus Heinz and Community* out of business! NOT!

* (and others. But subjecting you to Meyer is not a nice thing to do to a friend!)

But Klipsch has already sold six pairs of the speakers. They must be doing something right that you're not giving them credit for.

[mas]

I think that some of you are missing the point I was making in my original post that Roy is hassling me about.

It is fine for Roy to give me a hard time here on the forum. That doesn't bother me at all.

The point that is being missed is that Klipsch corporate engineering, when seriously queried about the availability of data, specifically for use by legitimate consultants for the use in room design in conjunction with recommending the integration of a sound system for the purposes of designing an integrated sound system with acoustical proof of performance standards using an industry standard program such as EASE, did not simply refuse the data. They denied that the data existed. That is an historical fact!

I really don't care what tricks one can pull on the forum to get them.

The irony is that up until the mid 1990's, engineers from Klipsch were routinely involved at SynAudCon and the 2nd Loudspeaker Design Seminar of 1991 in Atlanta hosted by Don Davis, Don Keele and Gene Patronis, etc.. I will admit that I do not know if they were involved at the 3rd LDS of 1996, as by then the attendance had grown from a select industry few (~150) to a crowd of well over 1000+ that packed Sound Check in Nashville.

And the irony is that the focus assumed, among other things, the use of TDS testing and precisely the data that was requested for very legitimate purposes. If they had offered it on condition of a non-disclosure agreement, although totally ludicrous, that would have even been easily done. But let me repeat this once more: Klipsch corporate engineering literally denied that the data existed. Something that I know for a fact was not true regarding, at least, the previously existing Heritage models as we had (personally) discussed aspects of it in 1991 at 2nd LDS as 'we' were playing with tri-amping and using active crossovers to align the acoustical centers of the LaScala.

[mas]

Here's a better answer. Why should any consultants and designers spec them when there are plenty of companies who not only specialize in state of the art commercial product lines, but who are also more than willing to not only provide data, but to provide value added services that help consultants to spec and recommend their products?

No wonder they are running EAW, Renkus Heinz and Community* out of business! NOT!

But Klipsch has already sold six pairs of the speakers. They must be doing something right that you're not giving them credit for.

SIX!?

I am referring to all of the commercial line. Not to home sales of a particular speaker!

And 6 pairs! That's not a business! That's a hobby!

At that rate they cannot even pay for the staff and overhead of the company! If that were the sole measure of success, the IRS would not even recognize them as a legitimate business.

ROFLMAO.

Gee, they must have hired the head of FORD marketing!

You folks are completely missing what I am talking about.

If they do not want too publish all of the specs in a a brochure or make them available to every Tom, Dick and Sally, while I perosonally do not see a problem, that is indeed their choice,

But these more detailed specs have not been made available to legitimate consultants who would like to use them to bid on contracts where the design of a system for an existing room or church or a new 'room' is involved. Some may express the willingness to do so, or the option that they could, the fact is that they have not been.

My point is that this dissemination of data is not only necessary for increased success in the commercial market niches, but it is critical for the designers as well. As this data is being made increasingly available to anyone who has the tools necessary to use it.

Consultants are not limited to any particular brand. Instead it is in their interest to use the tool that best suits the application.

And Klipsch is significantly hurting them self by limiting this data from being disseminated to those who could substantially help them in a symbiotic win-win relationship.

[edwinr]

The 6 pairs refer to Roy's home version of a commercial product. I didn't think they were advertised nor promoted except by inference in this forum.

In relation to your following statement:

"The point that is being missed is that Klipsch corporate engineering, when seriously queried about the availability of data, specifically for use by legitimate consultants for the use in room design in conjunction with recommending the integration of a sound system for the purposes of designing an integrated sound system with acoustical proof of performance standards using an industry standard program such as EASE, did not simply refuse the data. They denied that the data existed. That is an historical fact!"

I can't dispute your claim. I wasn't there. But just a point. You mentioned 'Klipsch Corporate Engineering' and 'they'. Obviously you spoke with an individual who has failed or refused to give you this information. I guess that's their right. Regardless of how people think about it...

[mas]

I spoke with several persons on several occasions. And several others did as well.

And you are correct! They do not have to provide ANYTHING to anyone!

And consultants don't have to use their systems either. And most are not!

That's one hell of a business model. Literally.

BTW, Not only do I love the 402 horn lens, I am silly enough to accept the commercial version as the home version! [] Heck, just stick some veneer on the face of that thing and call it the home version. Or sell them with a 'paperwork kit' included in order to facilitate dumping that problem spouse.[]

[edwinr]

Hmmm. Your point is taken. [:^)] I guess from a corporate point of view Klipsch have made a decision that suits them.

[mas]

I spoke with several persons on several occasions. And several others did as well.

And you are correct! They do not have to provide ANYTHING to anyone!

And consultants don't have to use their systems either. And most are not!

That's one hell of a business model. Literally.

Perhaps some are misconstruing my purpose.

I want Klipsch to succeed! I love the product!

I know many who would like to spec the product in bids for rooms, both in the home theater design market as well as the larger scale commercial SR market ranging from auditoriums, churches, clubs, etc. But this market demands more than simply sticking boxes in a corner. Measurements, proof of performance and other criteria routinely demand the employment of testing, modeling and presentations and the subsequent proof of performance verification of which many here are simply not fully aware.

The tools I posted in the screen shot represent just a few of the prominent tools that constitute the NORM in the professional/commercial acoustical consultants' business space. And reliable data is just a small part of this process.

And ironically, successful installations like the ones to which I am referring can serve as one heck of a testimony to the quality of the product as well. Its great marketing! And it costs nothing as it is simply the residue of a successful application.

Look, this discussion is quickly moving into an area of which many are not familiar. And I could go much further. We could talk about the dearth of professional distributors and the inability to find any dealers who have seen any such product in the last 10 years. It is near impossible to even hear allot of the product, let along get information sufficient to spec it and be held accountable on a contractual basis for its performance.

My point is that I would like to see an increased partnering of Klipsch with the folks in the industry who could help them, and in turn, provide a greater assortment of tools that can make the consultants' task easier as well. Everyone wins and there is no downside...unless giving the speaker assemblers more to do is considered a problem!

And the single easiest way to do this is to provide quality specs sufficient for the consultants to use and to employ in conjunction with the tools!

Addendum:

Or, how's this for a compromise. Publish ALL of he detailed data (and I am referring to a complete data set with time domain and frequency domains) MINUS the frequency response. For that, simply spec 20Hz-20KHz + - 10 dB. Heck, or + - 20 dB! Sounds great for most, but its an utterly meaningless spec the way most use it. And just as the normal frequency response is not only worthless, I would hazard to say that it is the single most misunderstood piece of data that many routinely worship. So omit it, and the rest of the data will be Martian to most except for those who understand and have a use for it.

In this sense, to flip sides in the 'debate', the posted specs are quite adequate, as we do have the acoustical center offsets. But I need much more detailed polar and intensity plots!

But to return to the frequency response, I am guessing that this single spec (the freq response) may be why some inside Klipsch do not want to publish the specs. And if this is their concern, I UNDERSTAND completely and agree!!!!!!! The notion that it must be ruler flat is represents a complete and utter falsehood as well as the degree of ignorance in the marketplace.

I hope that this has caused the few reading this to open the eyes wide and declare me a heretic! And then I hope that these same folks will persist and ask why I say this and what it means!

But at this point, I will just recount what a good friend and one of the foremost authorities on horns and TEF taught me. ( BTW, he is a true gentleman whose name is identical with a very prominent comedic actor - anyone who wants to know, just call or PM me - but I am not going to speak for him in the public forum except by reference).

Before I could afford a TEF, we would call him to stop by and shoot (TEF) speakers we were prototyping. And after we would finish with the initial socializing and get down to business, his first question was always "So, are we buying or selling?"

His meaning was more specifically, "Are we trying to ascertain exactly what this thing is doing, or are we putting makeup on a pig?" And after receiving an amazing lesson every time he stopped by, I soon
became aware of just how useful/useless the frequency response is. Depending on the windowing and smoothing you could take the worst response and make it look like you had drawn it with a ruler. Or visa versa. And its done everyday in the market place. And folks would be amazed.

In this respect, Trey is ABSOLUTELY correct! Most haven't a clue and would simply elevate their ignorance to totally erroneous conclusions.

So, without going on too much longer, I do understand both sides. My intention is simply to plead the devil's advocate's position for the data to be easily available to those with a use for it without jumping through ridiculous hoops or having the state of affairs misrepresented. I would rather simply be told "No" than to be lied to.

And currently Klipsch is cutting of their nose in spite of their face with market consultants. My complaints are not limited to myself. And many more simply don't even look anymore. And that's a shame! As my purpose is to simply cajole (or to figuratively pick them up and shake them! ;-) ) Klipsch into making more useful resources available, and if 'you folks at Klipsch' want more specific details (as I do not want to publicly quote others here), PM me.

But you won't garner more 'industry' support if you simply circle the wagons and cut off those who could expand market penetration.

[Coytee]

I hope that this has caused the few reading this to open the eyes wide and declare me a heretic! And then I hope that these same folks will persist and ask why I say this and what it means!

Ok Panties in a Sandy Wad Boy, (that's French for Heretic [] )

Why and what the dickens do you mean!!??

[]

[edwinr]

You've got a lot to say, mas. And who am I to question your right to say it. So I won't. This is a forum after all. I get your drift about the frequency response. In most cases this data is meaningless and bears little or no correlation to what a customer might expect to hear in their own home. But the reality is, if you only publish the other data you're speaking of, then this will further confuse customers who have been conditioned to accept the afore mentioned frequency responses with appropriate + or - db variations. So you're not a heretic by any means. In fact it never ceases to amaze me how many people refuse to audition equipment if their published specs don't match what the customer perceives to be 'flat' enough, or extended enough. But I'm afraid you're working against something that's been institutionalized for quite some time. Even in this forum, there are those (including myself) who talk about meaningless statistics with little or no understanding of the real worth of this figures. With regard to the rest of the data you would like access to... I don't know what to say to that. As I stated before, that's a corporate decision - but it seems as though access is available to some...

[mas]

Before anyone comments on the EASE formatted data, you might want to actually go take a look at it! (that was one reason the link was presented earlier!) There are no pictures and the data is not in a format that will make any sense to the average picture! It is a data file - essentially a spreadsheet. How many people do you know that read spreadsheets for pleasure and entertainment rather than use a graphical presentation to look for trends and relationships? I will stick my neck out and predict making these files available are not going to start a fad! And regular statisical programs will not make any sense of them!

So exactly what data is going to confuse the already confused? And you have just presented a great argument against sending folks to school. ...Assuming anyone is capable of decoding a spreadsheet with lists of numbers! And if they can do that, they don't need school. Simply hire them as master cryptologists.

The fact is, the only ones who are being alienated by not making the data available are the professionals who would potentially specify the equipment in installations. And if they do not understand the data, I don't think I would want my equipment associated with the project!

But why stop there. If you do not post pictures you will not potentially alienate those who do not like the aesthetics. And if you do not list a model name/number, you will not alienate those who do not like the name or those with a phobia for numbers, or numerologists who do not like the implications of the model number. And if you want to be sure not to alienate anyone, just don't market the product at all!

Seriously, take a few minutes and unzip one of the EAW EASE libraries.

The fact is, high end audio is not an expanding market. It is a contracting market. But high end custom home theater design is an expanding market. So are churches and other custom commercial environments. You can either co-opt those designing and specifying equipment for that market, or you can stick your head in the sand and wonder where the high end audio emporiums have gone.

I would love to see a SWOT/TOWS analysis that says that it makes sense to not support professional consultants who can actively specify equipment for use and to subsequently grow market share.

And while it apparently is for Klipsch, not releasing the data is NOT institutionalized in the industry! People may be shocked to know that even Bose is releasing their data formatted for use with EASE! In fact, the trend is exactly the opposite in firms that are actively growing and increasing their market penetration! And the fact is that companies who are publishing such data are growing and increasing market share and not scaring away customers.

You can either facilitate those who are in a position to assist in growing market presence, or you can actively discourage such participation as you sit by and wonder why your high-end market presence dwindles. That is, unless you simply want to move your strategic marketing model to marketing iPod accessories and theaters in a box.

The fact is that it is not a difficult thing to do to allow consultants to add another option to their arsenal of available resources.

Why do I have the suspicion that the latest apparent resurgence in new models of Heritage and commercial/pro equipment is merely the result of inertia remaining from an investment in time and resources of made 10-20 years ago. The shame is that without the support of designers, the inclusion of the high-end reference equipment also stands to suffer the same dwindling market share.