bodcaw boy Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Hey Roy , Could you help me out with a network for my Klipsch Acoustimass System ? "I asked Trey , but he never got back to me ." you need to aim the two middle ones..... have a blessed day, roy delgado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 As you know, Dean, I've encouraged you in these threads to buy Jubilees, especially when you were going to buy just the bass bins. They would be the perfect vehicle for you to tinker around with the top, with almost endless possibilities to feed your ravenous hunger for continually having something different. Knowing your aesthetic sense, my main concern was that you covered up whatever horn you ended up with. I'm a little surprised that you're buying into the 402 spiel whole hog. You do seem to be quite an amazing expert on these things considering you haven't heard them. But why let that little matter get in your way? have a blessed day, roy delgado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 After Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 I forgot you were in Hope last year. So, you heard these. I was told grown men were weeping and woman were fainting. Must of been the heat. Dean It was pretty hot in Hope. LOL I will say this... Truthfully, it did not sound like a PA type speaker, your safe, so relax. Hearing "only one" it is tough to call if it was fantastic or not... It was great and did not suck..... But I really would have to hear a pair and I am being honest here, too, to give you or anyone else a real opinion. Simply stated, it is different. And not like a k horn sound. Huge sound? Yes, of course. You could walk around the room and it filled it up with music no problem. Dynamic.. yes of course. Vocals sounded like you were there, and effortlessly played back too. I just wish there were two of them to give you my real opinion. The Hope Listening- Demo room next to the lab was not that big, but the older comfy couches sat pretty low too. (No leggs LOL) I have heard in the Heritage line or own currently Klipschorns, Belles, La Scalas, Cornwalls, and Heresey speakers. (I think that covers all of them too. LOL) Seriously, this is just a different beast. I have sung in bands that used the MCM system too. THAT is a PA monster.. This jubilee is NOT that kind of set up! I have been on stage with other Klipsch gear it is all different for sure. Even the bass in a K horn is very different and DOES require some luck in having a good room and seal to hear it "as it was intended IMO" to be heard in as well. So here you are with this beast on the way too. Again, I applaud you for giving it a go. If you need help unpacking it, and I can make it over on that day, I would love the drive over to help move it up into place. Your not that far away from Indy for sure. Even, if you do like head banger music! Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Personally I think they look really cool. If I had some i'd probably sit & stare. Any idea how they would sound in a 17 x 19 cathedral ceiling room? Jubilees would sound awful in your room - at least I think that's what I'm supposed to say? The flat power response would totally ruin the room acoustics you've been fighting... [6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Jubilees would sound awful(ly, and utterly fantastic) in your room - at least I think that's what I'm supposed to say? The flat power response would totally ruin the room acoustics you've been fighting... [] hehehehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Ohh. Ok Roy...where is the Jub with the drone. I would love to hear it.....Of course if it doesn't ever see the light of day....it would just be teasing me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Ohh. Ok Roy...where is the Jub with the drone. I would love to hear it.....Of course if it doesn't ever see the light of day....it would just be teasing me. Roy, How does the drone work? Why was it not utilized in the cinema jubilee? What would you say was the difference in sound with t drone and without drone in the jubilees you and Paul were working on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 A drone is just a passive radiator. It's best just to think of it as another way of porting. It's primarily used as a way of extending LF response, usually about a 1/2 octave lower in conjuction with the driver it's working with. My experience with them over the years in other speakers is that systems that use them tend to sound boomy and a little sloppy. If the Jubilee had ended up using this system, I absolutely would not have bought a pair without first hearing them. I've always strongly preferred acoustic suspension designs over ported and passive radiator designs, and horn loaded bass is the only thing I've heard that sounds as good to me. From: http://www.caraudiomag.com/technical/0206cae_audio_speakers_basics/ Passive Radiator Harry Olson first described passive radiators (PRs) in his patent Loudspeaker and Method of Propagating Sound that was issued back in 1935. Except for an article by Olson in 1954, very little was published about PRs until Nomura and Kitamura in their IEEE paper in October 1973, and Small's JAES paper in October 1974. Since then, passive radiator systems have had a relatively mild impact in the home audio market, while the car audio market failed to embrace it. However, two car audio manufacturers, Boston Acoustics and Earthquake, have recently initiated a movement towards the use of PRs in the automotive industry, taking from their experience in home audio. So what are passive radiators, what do they do, how do they work, and what are the positive and negatives? Passive radiators are often deceiving as they commonly look like a conventional subwoofer. However, these certainly are not subwoofers. While they look like and even appear to move like a normal subwoofer from the outside of a speaker system, what is behind them tells a different story. Passive radiators lack a key ingredient that assures they are not a woofer: the motor structure. In other words, they have no voice coil, magnet, top plate, t-yoke, tinsel leads or terminals. PR's are essentially an unpowered driver, therefore they must be mated with a powered woofer in an otherwise sealed enclosure. Passive radiators systems are referred as a variation of a ported enclosure. While they are mathematically identical, PR's use a diaphragm to take the place of the port. A PR is essentially made of two parts: a "weighted diaphragm" and a "spring". The weight of the diaphragm is a critical element the design and must be correct for the part to function properly. By changing the weight of the diaphragm, the resonance frequency will change, thus effecting the tuning of the enclosure. The spring is a combination of the stiffness of the suspension materials, and the air trapped within the cabinet. This too can change the tuning of the enclosure, much the same as the enclosure volume of a vented box changes its response. PRs are tuned, by the mass loading, to resonate at a frequency below the active woofer's linear response range. A passive radiator has a useful range about a 1/4 octave above and below its resonance. However, the typical roll off is a fairly steep 18 dB/octave. The combined response of the woofer and passive radiator should produce about a half an octave bass extension at low frequencies that add up to the level produced by the woofer on its own at higher frequencies, if the PR is tuned properly. In other words, a small amount of low frequency bass that the system would normally have difficulty reproducing now exists. In a passive radiator system, both the cone of the active woofer and PR could move in phase with each other, or any combination of opposite motions, up to 180 degrees out of phase. Keeping both cones exactly in phase would be ideal in order to reinforce the output of the woofer, but as physics would have it, this sort of resonant system is not exactly possible. One of the advantages of this type of system is that as the frequency being reproduced nears the resonance frequency of the PR, the excursion of the woofer decreases, thus taking the burden away from the woofer when producing the lower octaves. This is why it is common to see passive radiators larger in diameter than the active woofer in the system, as the woofer does not need to have the low frequency extension it would need in other enclosure designs. Also, this occurrence can allow the smaller diameter woofer to better its response at the upper and mid bass regions. As with the good, always comes the bad, for passive radiators are not perfect. As mentioned prior, passive radiators can reproduce tones up to 180 degrees out of phase of the woofer. Depending on the frequency generated and the positioning of the passive to that of the active woofer, the frequency response could have small amounts of cancellation. So long as the overall phase response does not contain any sudden changes or discontinuities, the human ear/brain should not detect this. However, when the phase response changes rapidly over a small range, it can be noticeable, as some people are more sensitive to this than others. Another inherent problem is the fairly sharp roll off of the PR. The frequencies below the passive radiator's tuning will roll off very rapidly. In addition, the air in the speaker box no longer acts like a spring to control and restore the motion of the PR and especially the woofer below the resonance of the PR. Much like a woofer in a vented enclosure, power handling of the woofer can be limited below the tuning frequency. This, in effect, could damage both the active woofer and the passive radiator. Passive radiators can be challenging to design. Most radiators now days have adjustable weight setups on the cone that make for easier tuning to the enclosure. However, picking the correct woofer, one with a low QTS (0.2 to 0.4), and designing a suitable enclosure are equally important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 A drone is just a passive radiator. It's best just to think of it as another way of porting. It's primarily used as a way of extending LF response, usually about a 1/2 octave lower in conjuction with the driver it's working with. My experience with them over the years in other speakers is that systems that use them tend to sound boomy and a little sloppy. If the Jubilee had ended up using this system, I absolutely would not have bought a pair without first hearing them. I've always strongly preferred acoustic suspension designs over ported and passive radiator designs, and horn loaded bass is the only thing I've heard that sounds as good to me. From: http://www.caraudiomag.com/technical/0206cae_audio_speakers_basics/ Passive Radiator Harry Olson first described passive radiators (PRs) in his patent Loudspeaker and Method of Propagating Sound that was issued back in 1935. Except for an article by Olson in 1954, very little was published about PRs until Nomura and Kitamura in their IEEE paper in October 1973, and Small's JAES paper in October 1974. Since then, passive radiator systems have had a relatively mild impact in the home audio market, while the car audio market failed to embrace it. However, two car audio manufacturers, Boston Acoustics and Earthquake, have recently initiated a movement towards the use of PRs in the automotive industry, taking from their experience in home audio. So what are passive radiators, what do they do, how do they work, and what are the positive and negatives? Passive radiators are often deceiving as they commonly look like a conventional subwoofer. However, these certainly are not subwoofers. While they look like and even appear to move like a normal subwoofer from the outside of a speaker system, what is behind them tells a different story. Passive radiators lack a key ingredient that assures they are not a woofer: the motor structure. In other words, they have no voice coil, magnet, top plate, t-yoke, tinsel leads or terminals. PR's are essentially an unpowered driver, therefore they must be mated with a powered woofer in an otherwise sealed enclosure. Passive radiators systems are referred as a variation of a ported enclosure. While they are mathematically identical, PR's use a diaphragm to take the place of the port. A PR is essentially made of two parts: a "weighted diaphragm" and a "spring". The weight of the diaphragm is a critical element the design and must be correct for the part to function properly. By changing the weight of the diaphragm, the resonance frequency will change, thus effecting the tuning of the enclosure. The spring is a combination of the stiffness of the suspension materials, and the air trapped within the cabinet. This too can change the tuning of the enclosure, much the same as the enclosure volume of a vented box changes its response. PRs are tuned, by the mass loading, to resonate at a frequency below the active woofer's linear response range. A passive radiator has a useful range about a 1/4 octave above and below its resonance. However, the typical roll off is a fairly steep 18 dB/octave. The combined response of the woofer and passive radiator should produce about a half an octave bass extension at low frequencies that add up to the level produced by the woofer on its own at higher frequencies, if the PR is tuned properly. In other words, a small amount of low frequency bass that the system would normally have difficulty reproducing now exists. In a passive radiator system, both the cone of the active woofer and PR could move in phase with each other, or any combination of opposite motions, up to 180 degrees out of phase. Keeping both cones exactly in phase would be ideal in order to reinforce the output of the woofer, but as physics would have it, this sort of resonant system is not exactly possible. One of the advantages of this type of system is that as the frequency being reproduced nears the resonance frequency of the PR, the excursion of the woofer decreases, thus taking the burden away from the woofer when producing the lower octaves. This is why it is common to see passive radiators larger in diameter than the active woofer in the system, as the woofer does not need to have the low frequency extension it would need in other enclosure designs. Also, this occurrence can allow the smaller diameter woofer to better its response at the upper and mid bass regions. As with the good, always comes the bad, for passive radiators are not perfect. As mentioned prior, passive radiators can reproduce tones up to 180 degrees out of phase of the woofer. Depending on the frequency generated and the positioning of the passive to that of the active woofer, the frequency response could have small amounts of cancellation. So long as the overall phase response does not contain any sudden changes or discontinuities, the human ear/brain should not detect this. However, when the phase response changes rapidly over a small range, it can be noticeable, as some people are more sensitive to this than others. Another inherent problem is the fairly sharp roll off of the PR. The frequencies below the passive radiator's tuning will roll off very rapidly. In addition, the air in the speaker box no longer acts like a spring to control and restore the motion of the PR and especially the woofer below the resonance of the PR. Much like a woofer in a vented enclosure, power handling of the woofer can be limited below the tuning frequency. This, in effect, could damage both the active woofer and the passive radiator. Passive radiators can be challenging to design. Most radiators now days have adjustable weight setups on the cone that make for easier tuning to the enclosure. However, picking the correct woofer, one with a low QTS (0.2 to 0.4), and designing a suitable enclosure are equally important. Interesting thanks for posting. Not sure why I am so drawn to bass horns but I have always prefered them over everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Ohh. Ok Roy...where is the Jub with the drone. I would love to hear it.....Of course if it doesn't ever see the light of day....it would just be teasing me. testing went well.....works well like the patents says it should.....maybe some day i will be able to show you something....but for now........that's all i can say........sorry.....unless you got ribs...... have a blessed day, roy delgado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Ohh. Ok Roy...where is the Jub with the drone. I would love to hear it.....Of course if it doesn't ever see the light of day....it would just be teasing me. Roy, How does the drone work? Why was it not utilized in the cinema jubilee? What would you say was the difference in sound with t drone and without drone in the jubilees you and Paul were working on? very similar to way a vented system extends the bottom end vs a sealed system. we did alot of testing for the patent (i don't like to patent stuff that is never tested and not proven to work) and i found out quite a bit of the how sensitive the parameters for a combo system like this are (is that right?). when i showed the data to paul, he was intrigued and wanted to change the topic of the aes paper to this. i didn't want to; i wanted the paper to come out as it did and anyway, we didn't have any time for a rewrite. i told paul that we would do a followup......sadly, we ran out of time..... have a blessed day, roy delgado ps. i've probably said too much. can you guys keep a secret? not you trey....i know you can't.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Ohh. Ok Roy...where is the Jub with the drone. I would love to hear it.....Of course if it doesn't ever see the light of day....it would just be teasing me. Roy, How does the drone work? Why was it not utilized in the cinema jubilee? What would you say was the difference in sound with t drone and without drone in the jubilees you and Paul were working on? very similar to way a vented system extends the bottom end vs a sealed system. we did alot of testing for the patent (i don't like to patent stuff that is never tested and not proven to work) and i found out quite a bit of the how sensitive the parameters for a combo system like this are (is that right?). when i showed the data to paul, he was intrigued and wanted to change the topic of the aes paper to this. i didn't want to; i wanted the paper to come out as it did and anyway, we didn't have any time for a rewrite. i told paul that we would do a followup......sadly, we ran out of time..... have a blessed day, roy delgado ps. i've probably said too much. can you guys keep a secret? not you trey....i know you can't.... I can keep my dirty little mouth shut. I can bring ribs from Little Rick we have a couple great shacks in the hood : ) and no I am not beyond bribary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Ok Roy...That is enough tease for now. I'll wait to bring this up again when you are vulnerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 WHAT?? NO RIBS???? have a blessed day, roy delgado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 WHAT?? NO RIBS???? have a blessed day, roy delgado Welp. I'll get you some dinosaur ribs if you would answer my big question about a particular aspect of that drone project. I have a 12" drone here and a pair of K31's with the past idea to take on such a feat. I realize it would be tuning two twelve in drivers in a cabinet. Ported....."droned" into the middle of the horn. That isn't my hang-up. But...to be honest...I don't want to ask that one question as I'm afraid to know the answer (although....wise that the answer isn't given). Soo...again...I'll wait. I'll just take the teasing for now.......My back is currently hurting from projects. Gonna take on some smaller tasks and listen to the tunes for awhile. jc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 It's probably tough to build an argument that extending the response of a 50Hz horn by 1/2 an octave isn't a good thing. Roy might want to say it would have made the Jubilee a better LF horn but he's too chicken to say it out loud. I'm more curious about what the trade-off is. There's no free lunch, and you can forget about ribs -- you don't get something without losing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 I would think you would loose a little dB and the curve would drop after the tuning point. But....I would like it if only that compromise. The thing is...just curious...if the version right now (yours) could accomplish the same low end extension with EQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Something bad happens if you apply too much EQ to the lower end response of a folded horn, but right now I just can't remember what that is. Roy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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