Upgrading from Synergy to reference...

[Sick Mother]

Someone please help me!

I currently have the Synergy 3s up front with S-2s in the rear. My preamp is a H/K AVR 235 and amp is a Parasound A52 (125w/ch). My sub is an M&K 350 THX. I live in a townhouse (don't tell me, I already know it sucks for what we here all do) where the fronts are about 7 feet apart and are placed in a room 22 feet deep and 8 feet tall. I sit about 18 feet from them. I have a 3-pane wide sliding glass door on one of the long sides of the room, and the entire room is carpeted. There is a good chance I will be able to sell my fronts (maybe with the center) in the near future, which would help me purchase some RF-83s. If not, I could possibly put them to use as my rear channels. Some of my questions are: will I have noticeable/any timbre issues using F-3s as rears? At 7 feet apart, would the 83s be too close? ( know it COULD work, but would it sound "not so bueno"?) Is the Parasound A52 enough to really let the 83s (and hopefully RC-64) come alive? Would the S-2s become totally useless at that point? And possibly most importantly, are 83s entirely too much speaker in a townhouse?

Maybe I hit my head thinking I wouldn't get the upgrade bug in the future with the new reference line, but that's what my hope is.

My use is probably 95% HT, 5% music (although I greatly enjoy 2 channel).

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. I know hearing the 83s would help a great deal, but the room I listen to them in and my townhouse are greatly different. Besides, I have yet to really hear anything truly bad about them.

Thanks!

John

[tommyboy]

I don't believe in the whole "too much speaker for a certain room" theory. I go by get the most speaker you can afford. Are you going to be living in that town house forever? The only down fall I see to buying 83's in a town house is your neighbors. Those speakers are going to truly rock, and your neighbors may not like that too much. You have to look at it like this also. Speakers are probably going to be the "component" that you don't upgrade very often. Receivers, pre/pro's, dvd players, etc will eventually have to be upgraded due to new technologies, or what have you.

I can't say that the S2's won't sound good. Surely, you'll probably have to upgrade them eventually. But for now, they should sound OK with 83's. You'll maybe need to re-calibrate them to accomodate the 83's though. I've never heard any setup with towers as surrounds with my own ears. Why dont' you do this. (If you can afford to) Buy the 83's. Hook the F3's up as surrounds, and see how it sounds. If it doesn't sound that great, sell the F3's like you said. Remember, that if it sounds good to you, that's all that really matters.

As far as the Parasound pushing them adequately, I would say probably not. But for the time being, it should be ALRIGHT. It's all about upgrading later, right? I say get the new setup, and save up and get a power amp later to push the 83's/ RC64. Obviously those speakers are a lot better than my synergy setup, but when I upgraded my receiver from one that pushes 80w p/c, to one that pushes 150 w p/c, it was like night and day difference. If it was me in your situation, here's what I would do. (just my personal opinion speaking here) The F3's are VERY effieicient speakers. I would get a power amp now, and put off the ref's for later. (outlaw audio makes some great stuff at an upbelievable price range) You will probably be greatly surprised at how much better they will sound with a good amp behind them. I was truly ready to upgrade my speakers, but then got that new receiver. Now I'm content keeping them (for a few more years anyway) I hope this helps you at least a little, and sorry about the long post.

[tommyboy]

Hey, I just noticed in your system profile, it says you have S1's as rears. If you made a mistake in your post, and these are the surrounds you have, they probably won't sound very good with 83's.

[germerikan]

I agree with Tommyboy,

go with the reciever upgrade first, IMO if you do the speaker upgrade you probably will not hear that much more of a difference to the F3's. With a good reciever behind them F3's are very good speakers and later you could still decide if you even need the reference speakers.

But yet again it is only my oppinion.

[Sick Mother]

Guys, thanks for the help thus far.

I'm a bit confused. Do you think I should upgrade the speakers or pre-amp first? Am I really going to notice THAT much a difference between a new one and my current one? More difference than rf-83s and F-3s? Correct me if I am wrong, but I was always under the impression the single biggest contributor to sound (other than maybe the room itself) are the speakers. I have read here in the forum to spend about half your budget on speakers. Currently, I am not even close to that with the synergy setup. lol

I feel (maybe wrongly) my amp is a fairly high-quality amp, while my speakers are only fair (at least by Klipsch and forum standards). If I am going to upgrade now, I want to put that money where it will make the most difference, and I am THINKING new speakers will do that. What do you guys think?

Thanks again!

John

[jacksonbart]

Always speakers first, they make the biggest difference along with the room

[Catharsis147]

Speakers first in my opinion. The RF-83's will SMOKE the F-3 in every respect. My RB-75's are only eight feet apart and I am more than happy with my setup. It may not be the same for you, but experimenting is where it is all about for placement. Move those F-3's to the back, get the RC-64 and wait on your next amp. That is what I would do.

[germerikan]

I feel (maybe wrongly) my amp is a fairly high-quality amp, while my speakers are only fair (at least by Klipsch and forum standards). If I am going to upgrade now, I want to put that money where it will make the most difference, and I am THINKING new speakers will do that. What do you guys think?

Thanks again!

John

I am probably going to get smoked for this next comment but as Johnny said in the fantastic 4 "Flame on"

Yes the RF-83's are going to "smoke" the F-3's with the proper amp, but if you keep your amp and dish out over double (or more) for the RF-83's you won't hear much of a difference, then you buy another Amp and the games begin. OTOH my wife who wants nothing to do with the building of our stereo did a head to head comparison between the F-3's and RF-52's (I wanted the 52's because they were reference and in my price class but not my wifes [:$] I did not even look at the F-3 because of what I had seen on this forum) and we actually liked how the F-3's sounded better, and the RF-52' also costed more (about 150 euro a piece). It is your money but please keep your mind open that right now without upgrading anything you do not only have "fair" speakers by Klipsch standards they are a speaker with reference quality at a lower price, the forum is another thing but I am not going to open that can of worms. I have the F-3 (yes I have said it and will not hide my head in shame) and it was a very big difference to my last speakers, hell they are worlds apart. At the moment I am upgrading my reciever and could demo some at the apartment and bielieve it or not they sound even better with clean solid power.

Hear the combinations that you can and if possible head to head with the speakers that you have now and I don't think you will be dissapointed with them. In the end it is your money and taste.

Fire retardent suit on, let the games begin.[*-)] is this going to hurt????

[InVeNtOr]

if i read correctly, you have a separates, and the amp you are running is 125 watts per channel?

the speakers are the wisest choice and the best place to spend the money. as of right now, (with your current electronics) if you change over to the 83's you may hear a little difference. (i am entirely guessing here, i am not in your living room of course...). once you pay for them and then save up money a better pre/pro will be available and much cheaper then buying one today. also i would strongly recommend upgrading your amp to at least 200 wpc because you don't want to take a chance and have clipping on your new speakers.

all in all no matter what you buy TODAY, you may or may not hear a difference. the difference will come when you have the nice new pre/pro, 200 wpc or 250 wpc amp, and those new shiny 83's. if you can get the 83's on a deal or something like that, get them. electroncis come and go, great speakers last a lifetime!

heres another little tid bit....if you think it will sound better it will. your ears are all that matters.

[xdetroitx]

Don't hesitate...put on your shoes and go buy the 83s. I have auditioned the 83s next to my 82s and there is a world of difference on a yamaha 110wpc receiver. I have also auditioned the 82s next to the f-3s and there is a difference. But, not only are the 83s not in the same class....they are not even in the same school. You will notice lot's of difference. You can find a used two-channel amp for $300 to push the 83s if you are that worried.

[InVeNtOr]

another thing i recemmend is getting the expencive speakers first, and then buy cheaper electronics so you can hear the speakers. save enough to get an amp to run them and you should have a much better system.

[Catharsis147]

I RESPECTFULLY disagree. I would say the RF-83's are going to smoke the F-3's in almost any condition, even regardless of most amps (though a parasound amp is no slouch LOL). Admittedly, I do not own the RF-83's I only auditioned them, but my hypothesis comes from owning reference stuff like the RC-25 and the RB-35's and then jumping to the -7 lineup with the same receiver I have now (which outputs like 75 watts a channel). There is a WORLD of difference between the Rb-35's and the RB-75's (plus the RC-7), enough to justify the upgrade even if I could go back. I would say most people (though not all) would be able to spot the difference between the two sets of speakers pretty easily (okay, I can anyway). I am sure there are Heritage folks who would say the same about reference stuff.

Though amps can certainly make a big difference in sound, I think the jump from the F-3 to the RF-83 in the long run is the better choice if you have the budget for them, especially for the most noticable difference in your system. This, by the way, does NOT mean the F-3 is a bad speaker by any stretch of the imagination, it is more a testament to how good the RF-83's really are.

Does that count as flaming? Maybe it does, but I hope not..........

[Sick Mother]

Guys, great feedback so far and greatly appreciated.

In all, I'm a bit surprised in the discussion about upgrading the amp now. I guess I figured a Parasound Halo amp is one of the strongest points in my system at the moment, regardless of the 125wpc rating. I have always been under the impression Parasound watts are "better" watts than most other amps. (Maybe its just more conservative. Who knows?) My thoughts are: upgrade the speakers now, and the reciever/pre-amp later when prices come down and the new decoders are available for DTS-HD, etc.

This might sound like a dumb question, but will there be a noticeable difference between the F-3 and RF-83 at moderate volumes or mainly at higher ones? I obviously can't go psycho on the volume much in a townhouse.

Last, are there any good recommendations on TV stands that can hold an RC-64? Its such a monster, and with my arrangment, I would like to leave it below the TV for the time being.

Thanks!

John

[InVeNtOr]

i have the ksf c-5 and i had to build my own. i have the plans in the Arch. section. i'll be taking pics of my apartemtent living room ht and posting them in the "show me yours" section.

theres some inexpencive ways to build one. a guy on here uses plain boards and long threaded bolts.

[germerikan]

Though amps can certainly make a big difference in sound, I think the jump from the F-3 to the RF-83 in the long run is the better choice if you have the budget for them, especially for the most noticable difference in your system. This, by the way, does NOT mean the F-3 is a bad speaker by any stretch of the imagination, it is more a testament to how good the RF-83's really are.

Does that count as flaming? Maybe it does, but I hope not..........

[][]

No it is a very factual statement you stated your point without slamming (actually I thought one of the reference guys would be foaming at the mouth and screaming blastphemy []). All in all I think it comes down to how much can be spent for the best equipment at this point in time. And you are correct in the statement in Heritage > Reference > Synergy the higher you go in the chain the "better" the speaker and the more expensive it is. I beilieve this shows how happy everyone is with their own Klipsch product, whatever you decide it has to work for you and be in your budget.

Have fun finding out what is best for you!!!!!

Randy

[shane_0_mac]

I would upgrade the speakers. Your amp is a very good amp. I myself prefer the the 7 series to the 83/64 combo. You could find used RF-7 and RC-7 get the speaker upgrade you want and not spend a mint. I have $1200.00 in my RB-75 RC-7 combo and could not be happier.

[jamesV]

Guys, great feedback so far and greatly appreciated.

In all, I'm a bit surprised in the discussion about upgrading the amp now. I guess I figured a Parasound Halo amp is one of the strongest points in my system at the moment, regardless of the 125wpc rating. I have always been under the impression Parasound watts are "better" watts than most other amps. (Maybe its just more conservative. Who knows?) My thoughts are: upgrade the speakers now, and the reciever/pre-amp later when prices come down and the new decoders are available for DTS-HD, etc.

This might sound like a dumb question, but will there be a noticeable difference between the F-3 and RF-83 at moderate volumes or mainly at higher ones? I obviously can't go psycho on the volume much in a townhouse.

Last, are there any good recommendations on TV stands that can hold an RC-64? Its such a monster, and with my arrangment, I would like to leave it below the TV for the time being.

Thanks!

John

Well I can say that I had a Sony receiver rated at 110 wpc, I then upgraded to a Outlaw 7100. That made a big difference, then I got a Outlaw 750. Now the difference between the 7100, 100 wpc, and the 750, 165 wpc, is BIG. The volume is not the same at any level, even the low end has more to it.

I think that you will have a cleaner sound from the RF-83's at a lower volume then you would from the F-3's. Then it would just get better from there as the volume goes up. Do you have somewhere that you can listen to both at the same time with your own music? I really believe that this is the best test and no one can say one is better then the other if you can hear the difference for yourself.

As for TV stands I have this one. http://www.bushfurniture.com/bushindustries/bushfurniture/productdetail/productdetail4.jsp?id=VS11536A-03&id18=TV&id19=36

James

[xdetroitx]

Guys, great feedback so far and greatly appreciated.

In all, I'm a bit surprised in the discussion about upgrading the amp now. I guess I figured a Parasound Halo amp is one of the strongest points in my system at the moment, regardless of the 125wpc rating. I have always been under the impression Parasound watts are "better" watts than most other amps. (Maybe its just more conservative. Who knows?) My thoughts are: upgrade the speakers now, and the reciever/pre-amp later when prices come down and the new decoders are available for DTS-HD, etc.

This might sound like a dumb question, but will there be a noticeable difference between the F-3 and RF-83 at moderate volumes or mainly at higher ones? I obviously can't go psycho on the volume much in a townhouse.

Last, are there any good recommendations on TV stands that can hold an RC-64? Its such a monster, and with my arrangment, I would like to leave it below the TV for the time being.

Thanks!

John

Well I can say that I had a Sony receiver rated at 110 wpc, I then upgraded to a Outlaw 7100. That made a big difference, then I got a Outlaw 750. Now the difference between the 7100, 100 wpc, and the 750, 165 wpc, is BIG. The volume is not the same at any level, even the low end has more to it.

I think that you will have a cleaner sound from the RF-83's at a lower volume then you would from the F-3's. Then it would just get better from there as the volume goes up. Do you have somewhere that you can listen to both at the same time with your own music? I really believe that this is the best test and no one can say one is better then the other if you can hear the difference for yourself.

As for TV stands I have this one. http://www.bushfurniture.com/bushindustries/bushfurniture/productdetail/productdetail4.jsp?id=VS11536A-03&id18=TV&id19=36

James

That's a nice stand. It would look real nice flanked by some cherry rf-83s.

[jamesV]

Thanks, that's exactly what I have sitting next to them... []

James

[falcon20x]

Here is my 0.2 cents.

I have a pair of RF 83's as well as RF 3's, would hear a difference ? Of course you will.

How much of a difference? Well that depends what you are driving them with, and of course the amp will make a difference.

One thing I can say is the RF 83's show everything, CD's that you thought were good on your F3's might no sound as good on RF 83's.

Some of the music I used to listen on the rf 3's which I liked is almost like screaming for murder on the Rf 83's and it is only  due to the quality of the recording.

If you are going to use them mainly for wacthing TV or DVD you won't hear that much difference to be honnest. Something else I noticed was the bass, if set up properly you could almost turn the sub off and not notice it is off.

I don't think the RF 83's are as picky as the RF 7's but better gear you get better result you will get.( the RF 7's are known for needing high quality gear in order to reach there potential)

I initially Hooked up mine to a cheap yamaha receiver and they sounded pretty good but not that much better that the RF3's did, moving up to a HK 645 receiver did make a difference and I also listened to them with a top of the line Marantz and I tell you what I did not think it was the same speakers, the Marantz receiver made them come alive.

I will even go further, during a demo I was listening to the Rf 62 and the Rf 82, and I thought the 62 sounded way better then the 82, I almost walked away that was right before I swaped receivers and found out that the one they were using for the 82's was so far out calibration it was not even funny. All of this to say that you can get the best speakers, they will only sound as good as what you are using to drive them.

There is not doubt in my mind that you  are going to get what you pay for, you can't claim that a $ 400 speakers will sound as good as $2500 speakers and the same goes for the reciever.

If it was the case why would any one by the expensive one? Trying to make you beleive that the RB 75  sound as good as Rf 83's is..... well I stay polit but you get the idea.

If you get the rf 83 you will never look back, just forward wanting more and more, it is a vicious game.

The best thing you can do is to go demo them and compare them with other speakers in the same store if you can.