How do Tubes sound?

[colterphoto1]

I'm confused... What amp were the tubes tested against? The HK 430 on the Khorns? Cuz the HK 430 is selling for $35-75 bucks on Ebay and I would hope most anything tested against it would shine. Was the goodness heard due to 'tubes'? Or was the goodness heard due to merely a higher quality amp? I don't care if it is "twin powered" or not, it's still an old amp at a $50 price point. If it was such a gem/great sounding amp, would it really be selling for $40 bucks? I can't imagine.

True, it's an older receiver advertised at only 20 wpc, but the 'twin powered' is what it's all about Meagain. What that means is massive power supplies, sadly missing from many modern day receivers. All I know is they have been highly recommended here and years ago by AndyHDBRbuilder. And they have BALLS, which to me is a robust sound with plenty of dynamics. Perhaps the prices have come down, a year ago you couldn't touch any of the HK-X30 units for less than $100.

Next time I get a trial run though, I'll match tubes up against my old Yamaha RXV2400, a $999 retail receiver.

Now back to talk about the SOUND of tubes. Let's let equiment wait for another thread....

M

[oldbuckster]

"You can lead a Horse to water, but you can't make it drink".......Buy one less pair of speakers, and buy a Scott, or Dynaco. or whatever.......

[jt1stcav]

..."I don't know how well I can explain the tube sound...to my ears switching to valves was a revelation. I'm not dissing SS (I loved my transistorized Macs and Carvers), but there seems to be a certain air or presence to the overall soundstage that wasn't as noticable when transistors were driving my loudspeakers. Call it coloration or warmth, but my brain seems to enjoy the sonic characteristics tubes provide (even more so when you're tube-rolling and altering the flavor-of-the-day even more). Are tubes more neutral? More realistic? I don't think so...just different, in a way that's pleasing to me (remember, MaxG switched from tubes back to SS, so anything's possible with both topologies)."

It's kinda hard for me to put into words the actual "sound" of tubes other than what I had already described earlier. But it wasn't subtle for me...that "sound" jumped out at me and slapped me in the face! Sorta like hearing horns for the first time after years of listening to conventional cones 'n' domes; their in-your-face presentation with well recorded albums literally transformed an ordinary recording into a live experience IMO! Just like when I upgraded my Stanton cartridge to a high-output Sumiko Blue Point MC...wow, my Dire Straits "Brothers In Arms" LP came alive with 3-dimensionality moreso than I have ever experienced before!

That's about the way it was for me upon hearing tubes in my system for the very first time, and that from my entry-level AMC tube preamp controlling my big Mac! Imagine my joy upon receiving my 300B SET stereo amp and 6SN7 SRPP linestage pre...even if they are inexpensive homebrew components made in Hong Kong, they revealed more openness and clarity to my ears than I can recall with all my SS Carver and McIntosh gear (which still sounded excellent to me; live and robust with my Magnepans...just needed over 300 watts per side to do it). I just wanna reiterate that in no uncertain terms am I dissing "high-quality" SS components; they produce the same level of excellence in capturing a recorded musical event and transforming that event to a live performance in your listening room. The difference IMO with a tube output stage seems to add a bit more liveliness and air to that same performance, along with midrange "warmth" (for lack of a better term) that to me really stands out and takes notice.

That's about as best as I can describe the benefits of valves and their sound...FWIW!

PS - glad you're considering the ST-70, Michael. Should be an interesting transformation in sound to your present system.

[meagain]

Gosh - I never got any big bang out of switching like that. I don't get it. (Course, you're referring to SET).

Going to my Tube CDP was pretty intense though. But I believe my old CDP was crapola.

[lwhaples]

Michael, Email sent looking for your addy. Just remembered it's going to Craig. Never mind the email.[:$] Just need to get some tape to finish it up for shipping.

Larry

[HarryO]

I don't think you can get the full benefit without doing the A-B side to side comparisons. In my case it was the same AMC amp vs a pair of Crown PS400s monoblocked through a Crown IC150. I built my own speakers (Cornwall type) and used quick change dual banana connectors. I ran the same music I was familiar with through the Crowns (which I love dearly) and then through the AMC and back to the Crowns. The Crowns came out of the 6' rack, the rack was put into storage, and Now the tubers have taken over the living room and bedroom. It really started with a little 6BQ5 LaFayette 14 wpc integrated that sounded so good I had to buy more and bigger tubers. I loved the LaFayette. Give me tubes!!! If necessary I'll take SS if I have to.I can still enjoy quality music through both.

I haven't heard anyone dissin' SS here, just true converts to a new and warm glowing world.

HarryO

[jt1stcav]

I was just saying I personally wasn't dissin' SS amps; I wasn't claiming that others on this thread were for no one has.[]

And I was referring to all tube components in general, either PP, SET, SEP, OTL, et al, and not just my 300B SET system. In the past I've auditioned my bro's EL34, 6V6, KT88/6550 PP amps, and a '60s Magnavox 2 to 3 watt per side 6BQ5 SEP console amp thru my system before buying my 300B setup. To me they all stood out as being spectacular sounding (especially that li'l Maggie with the Cornwalls), and I could easily live with any one of 'em today...I don't fall into the SET camp because it's what I own right now, and I've never gotten into that SET vs PP debate because I also love all tube gear. Like Harry said, "give me tubes!"[Y]

[HarryO]

JT,

I had a pair of the ASL AV20s and the Hong Kong amps sound fantastic with the right tubes. I've got the Sheng Ya/Vincent tube HDCD player and I love it. Seems the Chinese have "caught on to a good thing".

HarryO

[jt1stcav]

Gosh - I never got any big bang out of switching like that. I don't get it. (Course, you're referring to SET).

Going to my Tube CDP was pretty intense though. But I believe my old CDP was crapola.

Seems to me you do get it, Lisa. When you upgraded your old crapola disc player to your tube CD player...that's the big bang I was referring to (no matter how we describe it, it is an intense difference we hear).

Our ears are all different and none of us hear exactly alike. What was a revelation to me might have been more subtle to you. Regardless, we both did hear a difference that we liked more when tubes were added to the mix, so in the final scheme of things, it's all good.

[jt1stcav]

I had a pair of the ASL AV20s and the Hong Kong amps sound fantastic with the right tubes. I've got the Sheng Ya/Vincent tube HDCD player and I love it. Seems the Chinese have "caught on to a good thing".

I agree, the Chinese are improving their R&D and their latest designs are quite striking. I haven't been in the market lately, but I also believe their prices have increased some over the years as well. I always thought ASL and Shanling were among some of their better manufacturers, and now there are other brands from China I've never heard of before that are virtually on par with some of the best tube components ever made throughout the audio world. Personally, I don't really care where a tube amp is made, just as long as it's a great design that's both reliable and fantastic sounding. My bro's latest PP 6L6/5881 power amp from J. Sound Lab is made in Israel, and it's a solid performer that's well built, aesthetically pleasing, and great sounding!

The stock Chinese military tubes that came with both my amp and preamp were somewhat thin and lifeless sounding to me; of course they weren't broken in yet when I replaced them. When I immediately upgraded to all NOS RCA and Mullard, I became a believer in tube-rolling! Now the brand new tubes being built today are sounding very nice to my ears...the Shuguang 300BC graphite anode tubes are sweet, and so too are the latest Electro Harmonix 300B-EH output tubes I'm enjoying right now, and these are the more affordable, entry-level 300Bs. I'd love to try the TOTL Emission Labs and KR Audio 300Bs. Maybe someday...

[Groomlakearea51]

On a lighter note: It's raining; bad storms coming through; can't go outside with the kids; so sittin' here and been thinking (again) about maybe a tube amp. My son, Michael (aged 8) comes in and asks what I'm doing; told him I'm reading about tube amps. He looks real serious, gets a big grin for a second and heads out to the garage. 'Bout 10 minutes later, comes in and says, "Dad, we've got a present for you!". So was dragged out to the kitchen....[] Oh well, I guess tubes are a matter of "taste", but I think the moral of this story is maybe, "You can have your tubes and eat them too...."

[jacksonbart]

I bet those taste better with mustard and go louder without distortion than most tube amps.

[HarryO]

JT,

PM sent to you.

HarryO

[aviserated]

JT,

I had a pair of the ASL AV20s and the Hong Kong amps sound fantastic with the right tubes. I've got the Sheng Ya/Vincent tube HDCD player and I love it. Seems the Chinese have "caught on to a good thing".

HarryO

Yea...my ASL amp sounds wonderful with my Grand Pianos but not with my Fortes. The Fortes really shine with my solid state B&K system (loudness button and tone controls).

The main drawback with tubes is weak bass. I have to put my speakers very close to the wall to here deeper bass.

[dtel]

Meagain it don't quite work like that, that $35 - $70 HK is not in the same class as most of the amps in that price range. They sound much better, I use a HK 930 from forum member Arfanbark and it sounds better than an amp costing at least twice what it is worth. IMO

Not all old amps, just some of them, just like all old tube amps don't sound the same. Just how they were made i guess ?

[HarryO]

I've found just the opposite. I have ALWAYS found deeper and strongly driven bass with the tubes. Maybe I haven't used any that didn't match up properly. Have you tried different tubes (good tubes USA, W GERMANY, ENGLAND etc) in it. I've found the original tubes seem lacking but once the right tubes are fitted they sound super.

HarryO

[HarryO]

JT,

I just sent you another PM

HarryO

[stormin]

I've found just the opposite. I have ALWAYS found deeper and strongly driven bass with the tubes.

Now thats interesting. You use the word "strongly" instead of "stronger". Was that intentional? Wise play of words. Because you dont seriously think that a tube amp is going to out drive a big crown,qsc,krell pushing a 15 or 18 inch woofer do ya. Geesh man those things will suck the life out of ya[]

[HarryO]

I seriously KNOW, not think. I'm very familiar with Crown. I've been running the big tranny SS since Aug 74 when I went to twin DC300s, IC150, 700series R2R, Nak cassette, Soundcraftsmen Eq, and 4 ESS Heil Rock Monitors I bought from Sound Pro at 116th and Keystone on the north side of Indy. I retired a tired old Sansui 1000 tube receiver. I still have Crown DC300s and PS400s here now. I just pulled the 400s and put in tubes again less than 2 months ago. I'm running the Crites Eminence K-33 cast frame 400w replacements in my speakers. I just sold EV 700 Patricians with the 18" in them. YES, the tubes kicked harder than the SS. I have a pair of Krell 200w amps here now. Ultra clean sound but I most definitely find them lacking in power and "thump" They would NOT drive my Carver Amazing Silvers with 3 12" woofs and the 48" ribbons. An old Kenwood Kr-6050 SS actually drove them much harder. I can get more bass especially at lower volumes with the tubes. The big SS amps can be turned up louder, and that is what it takes to get them to drive as hard, but I'm not trying to fill an auditorium either.

I use both tube and SS. They get A-B comparisons almost daily. The tubes definitely drive harder with what I HAVE HERE. I won't stereotype SS vs Tube as a whole, Just What I AM LISTENING TO HERE. Klipsch Heritage, Altec Valencias, Altec 604b, 604g, 416s, 515s, Jensen tri-ax gold frames, EV, OHM Walsh 1, and a few others. I "play" with this stuff for a second income as well as a hobby and get the opportunity to hear loads of gear. JMHO though.

Please let me say it again, I like solid state. I just love tubes. I'm not trying to argue or talk anyone into anything else or sell anything at all.

Enjoy the music in any form YOU like.

HarryO

[oldbuckster]

I've found just the opposite. I have ALWAYS found deeper and strongly driven bass with the tubes.

Now thats interesting. You use the word "strongly" instead of "stronger". Was that intentional? Wise play of words. Because you dont seriously think that a tube amp is going to out drive a big crown,qsc,krell pushing a 15 or 18 inch woofer do ya. Geesh man those things will suck the life out of ya[]

YUP, I'll put up my 299-D at 40 watts total against your Crowns or whatever, your the one that will be surprised..............Really !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I find the big difference in tubes is LESS POWER, MORE BANG............you need mega watts SS to produce the same level Bass response.....We can write all we want, there is only one way to prove the point.............Go listen to tubes.........Hearing is believing...........Besides, how can we write about what tubes sound like anyway, think about that question.............Buy some and find out how they sound..........................EH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!