POLL: Fun with bias/voltage meters? What is your wall voltage?

[meagain]

That wire on the outside is almost certainly 12 gauge so the interior wiring is 14 gauge meaning a 15 amp circuit. Another stupid thing to do - you are supposed to match the wiring. The 14 gauge is your limiting factor and just because someone spliced in 20 gauge doesn't mean you can place a 20amp fuse in the circuit. Yes, I understand. I'm sure the 12-10g is just at the outlet right where I see it. I'll try to confirm how the outlet was installed via my husband's memory of it. So I bought 15a fuses today. Type TL. I got some T just in case. I guess I'll put one in now and see if I blow fuses.

Bottom line is you have about 1440 watts you can place on that circuit before you violate code restrictions and jeopardize safety. OK, I wish I better understood what my HK AVR took. 59 idle, 940 max @ 7 channels. I only run 5-channels with TV so I've no clue where I'm at there. Taking guesses. If I'm up towards the edge of 1440, I have another circuit I could put some gear on that's really close by.

Craig just provided the wattage of those amps at idle. Add your pumps, your computer, the monitor, the HK, the lights, and anything else plugged into that circuit and see where you are at. Remember those numbers are at idle. Now, if you are running at the limits of that circuit, and you have pumps flipping on and off... you are going to have spikes and sudden current drops. I did learn something about the pump thing though. Pumps run 24/7 for 6-7 months of the year. When I feed the fish, I turn the pond off. When I clean the filter system I turn it off AND on. I'll make sure amps are turned off for these. Actually, the pumps being on lower my volts 1-1.5 so I actually think they've been helping in a weird way.

Two screw on caps. 4 wires each... you are wired with two wires - a hot and a neutral. No additional ground. Leading me back to my previous statement about the grounding. Additionally, depending on the size of the box these wires are in, you may have exceeded the box capacity. 8 conductors plus 2 clamps plus the wall outlet...11 conductors... that should be a 1.5 by 4 11/16 box or larger. To this one outlet in the other room, 2 wires go to outlet face. In the listening room, this one outlet has 4 wires to the plug face gadget. 2 black and 2 white. Wait... maybe it's one wire each and these wires are stripped in the middle to go under the screw? Hard to tell. There is a red wire inside the box and I can't tell what it's doing.

Does this sound ungrounded also?

[meagain]

What would be handy for us VRD customers is a handy dandy cross reference matrix that recommends a bias spec for a particular wall voltage to help maximize tube life and/or achieve a specific performance. This could be as simple as a small spreadsheet and I volunteer to create it if you send me some numbers.

For instance: my wall voltage is 121-124. Those are the approximate extremes I see. I always bias around .72 and God only knows the wall voltage when I get around to making adjustments. Is .72 correct for 121v, 122v, 123v, and 124v too? This is type of info I'd be interested in.

Yes yes yes! Wall voltage never occurred to me to relate to this. Only when I read Dean's "Voltage Regulation" thread did I decide to test my voltage for giggles (didn't even know how to do it). It never would have occurred to me the relationship between wall voltage and tube bias/age, etc. Like - how would I know that?

Here's the thread Mark where Craig crunches a few basic numbers (this thread amuzes me cuz Craig told me to turn the amps off and one blew when I turned it back on. LOL) http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/3/842957/ShowThread.aspx

[sfogg]

" To this one outlet in the other room, 2 wires go to outlet face. In the listening room, this one outlet has 4 wires to the plug face gadget. 2 black and 2 white. Wait... maybe it's one wire each and these wires are stripped in the middle to go under the screw? Hard to tell. There is a red wire inside the box and I can't tell what it's doing.

Does this sound ungrounded also?"

Yes, it does sound like no ground. The black wires are hot, white is neutral. You have four wires because basically there are other things on that circuit tied off of that outlet. That is very common.

If you have a bare wire in the box that would connect to possibly a green screw on the outlet that would be your ground wire.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

Craig just provided the wattage of those amps at idle. Add your pumps, your computer, the monitor, the HK, the lights, and anything else plugged into that circuit and see where you are at. Remember those numbers are at idle. Now, if you are running at the limits of that circuit, and you have pumps flipping on and off... you are going to have spikes and sudden current drops. I did learn something about the pump thing though. Pumps run 24/7 for 6-7 months of the year. When I feed the fish, I turn the pond off. When I clean the filter system I turn it off AND on. I'll make sure amps are turned off for these. Actually, the pumps being on lower my volts 1-1.5 so I actually think they've been helping in a weird way.

No this is not a help at all!! Its a sign that your circuit is over loaded. Besides no self respecting audio enthusiast would have pumps or motors of any kind of the same circuit. In a properly loaded circuit turning these pumps on would cause no sustained voltage drop it may drop for an instant but then it should recover too the previous voltage. The proper way to lower the voltage if on the high side is with something like the Furman it will also isolate the system from numerous other problems as a side benefit. Hence the reason I suggested it.

[meagain]

OK - I didn't even know the pumps were on the same circuit till I turned them off/on. Actually, I'm pretty proud of myself for this epiphany.

Sfogg - are you saying that all these power strip type surge protectors I have around here are totally useless because my walls aren't grounded? LOOLLOLLLLOL LOLLLL How would I know that? LOL

[sfogg]

"The only thing I want to know is why fuses/tubes blow somewhere between off/on. Every time except the last time (surely due to a kt88 being old), it's been with off/on. "

For the reasons already given.

"280w at idle? How could I figure out what they're doing with TV or Music? "

With the device I already told you about.

"My ONLY concern with soft-start option is that it goes beyond soft start and runs at 1-2 volts lower. I'm concerned about this cuz if I get a volt regulator that lowers the volts to the amps, I'm lowering it again with soft-start. "

So? It will give you a little more tube life. The soft start will reduce the current surge at turn on which could end up helping. I can't imagine that is a terribly expensive modification for the VRDs, get it done.

"OK, I wish I better understood what my HK AVR took. 59 idle, 940 max @ 7 channels. I only run 5-channels with TV so I've no clue where I'm at there. "

The same device that would tell you how many watts the VRDs are using would tell you how many watts this is using too.

" If I'm up towards the edge of 1440, I have another circuit I could put some gear on that's really close by."

It is very simple. If you put too much on the circuit (with the proper sized fuse) you will blow the fuse. If that happens you need to move some of your electrical load onto a different circuit. No harm done.

If you put too much load on the circuit (with an oversized fuse) your risk a fire.

Shawn

[sfogg]

Craig,

"No this is not a help at all!! Its a sign that your circuit is over loaded. "

Maybe, but it could also be a sign she has a bad connection somewhere in the chain. If she had a high resistance connection (corroded/loose) the resistance would act as a current limiter. Voltage would be relatively normal but when loaded up past that point it could drop. The way to see if this is occurring is to check voltage levels as close to the fuse panel as possible and at the end of the chain on the same circuit. If there is a big difference she has a problem in the wiring.

Totally agree about having pumps and so on on the same circuit.

Shawn

[sfogg]

"Sfogg - are you saying that all these power strip type surge protectors I have around here are totally useless because my walls aren't grounded? LOOLLOLLLLOL LOLLLL "

If you don't have a ground (a $5 tester at home depot will show you this) you don't have surge protection unless you happened to buy BrickWall surge suppressors which work by a very different principal. They need a ground too really as a drain for after the event.

" How would I know that? LOL "

You RTFM!!!!

Jeez, I thought only guys didn't read instruction manuals. Every surge suppressor out there will have some kind of mention that a ground is *required*. Some even have some sort of an indication if a ground is missing.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

Craig,

What would be handy for us VRD customers is a handy dandy cross reference matrix that recommends a bias spec for a particular wall voltage to help maximize tube life and/or achieve a specific performance. This could be as simple as a small spreadsheet and I volunteer to create it if you send me some numbers.

For instance: my wall voltage is 121-124. Those are the approximate extremes I see. I always bias around .72 and God only knows the wall voltage when I get around to making adjustments. Is .72 correct for 121v, 122v, 123v, and 124v too? This is type of info I'd be interested in.

If you think it is of value then let's discuss some numbers and I'll produce a spreadsheet to circulate.

Here you go Mark here is the math for the taking. The thing you have to realize is in your case your not running you amps at excellerated usage. You work, come home and listen for a few hours a night most likely more on the weekends. In this case were talking an entirely different usage extreme.

Did some basic measurements. VRD's in my system

First my house is strumming along at 120V on the wall today

Biased my amps at .70 volts or 70mA

Plate voltage was 500V on the button.

Plate dissipation

500V X .070 - 35 watts at idle (this happen to be perfect for a KT88 run in my topology IMHO they can take more but it will indeed lower the life span

Used my variac and bump the wall voltage to 125V (this is about Dean's normal voltage when he gets home from work and biased his amps.)

The bias jumped up to .746 (74.6mA) from the previous setup

Plate voltage is now 520V

520V X .0746 = 38.792 plate dissipation ouch!

Lower bias to .70 plate voltage rises slightly as it should

524V V .070 = 36.68 plate dissipation mild ouch! but livable under normal usage

Again used my variac to bump the voltage up to 130VAC (This is what was happening to Deans amps late at night only 1 volt higher)

The bias jumped again from .70 to .745 or 74.5mA

Plate voltage now 543V

543V X .0745 = 40.4535 Triple ouch !! Danger will Rogers..........

Lowered bias to .70 plate voltage again rises slightly

547V X .070= 38.29 double Ouch !!!

550V X .64 (bias) = 35.2 this would correct the output tubes plate dissipation but then the front end voltage would be way out of spec, it would not ruin the tubes but it would change the sound character of the amps as would the change in the output tube setup to bring the dissipation back in line.

If Deans solution ends up working out it may be the best all around cure for his extreme situation. Even the SS gear and sources will benefit from this fix. I'm waiting to hear from Dean about what this thing does when the wall voltage is within less the 5V of the 120V spec. if it keeps regulating it to near 120V then it is indeed a great option in my opinion for anyone that has this type of a problem. I recently talked to Furman and was told AR1215 and AR15-II both always correct the voltage to 120V The +-5V tolerance means that if the unit is fed the extremes of 141V or higher it will only correct to 125V or if the incoming voltage is 97V or lower it will only correct to 115V. IMHO the perfect solution for extreme usage coupled with higher voltages.

This problem exists on just about ALL tube amplifiers, preamps to some degree. These magical self biasing designs suffer the same fate from high wall voltage. The only product that could possibly not be effected would have to employ a very complicated voltage regulation setup on all the different voltage taps in the power supply, heaters and the biasing scheme. I personally wouldn't want a product with such extreme measures at least tube based

Craig

PS I seen a few wanting to know what to bias KT88's at... the answer is- to many variables in the different amps to answer you all. You need to look to the manufacturer of your amp.

I bet in 90% of the houses if folks measured the voltage is within tolerance for the .70 bias setting on my amps. If you have high wall voltage you need to address it for your entire audio systems health and Sonics. I have simple ways to help some in the amps but not a perfect solution like this gadget may end up being Dean had me purchase for him at a discount. Only time will tell.

[Deang]

... Dean had me purchase for him at a discount.

Now you went and did it, you'll end up buying these for everyone now.

[meagain]

Sfogg - I'll buy one of those watt testing gadgets. Maybe I'll call Home Depot and get one today.

Dean - How about it. Can you slap the meter on the wall outlet then in the furman outlet? Pretty please?

[mark1101]

I guess I need to cut back down from .72 to .70......or else my 3 year old tubes might lose some of their life span. []

Geez Graig...you're the one who told me I could go as high as .75, and said .72 was perfect. Now it's .70.

On second thought I'm actually going to raise the bias to .75. I want to try a different set of output tubes sometime in my lifetime. I already waited 3 friggin' years. []

[flannj]

Lisa,

Look here as one example, if you don't already have a licensed electrician to work with. Illinois is one of the few states that has not adopted a state electrical code and does not license electricians, contractors, or inspectors. It is important to find a qualified electrical contractor. I just used this site as a suggestion. There are other sources to find one as well.

http://www.electriconline.org/

- Jim

[sfogg]

If you get the watt tester at Home Depot (not sure if they sell them or not) also get an outlet tester. They certainly sell them. The cost maybe $5 and will tell you if your outlets are wired properly and if you have a ground or not.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

I guess I need to cut back down from .72 to .70......or else my 3 year old tubes might lose some of their life span. []

Geez Graig...you're the one who told me I could go as high as .75, and said .72 was perfect. Now it's .70.

On second thought I'm actually going to raise the bias to .75. I want to try a different set of output tubes sometime in my lifetime. I already waited 3 friggin' years. []

Yea well I have Chinese made tubes with 8000 hours on them and they still work and test Okay. To bad I dropped one and broke it so I can't see just how long they will hold up. You can bias to .75 volts you will just end up trying a new set of tube sooner. Heck I have run my own VRD's with KT-100 in them at 1 full volt for days before!! The power transformer gets a bit warm though and this is not for the weak at heart. Tubes are consumables like toilet paper every hour used is a hour off there life.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Lisa, look here if you don't already have a licensed electrician to work with. Illinois is one of the few states that has not adopted a state electrical code and does not license electricians, contractors, or inspectors. It is important to find a qualified electrical contractor.

http://www.electriconline.org/

- Jim

Oh my gosh!! Talk about dangerous. Hey I'm moving to IL and hang my hat out as a electrician.

[NOSValves]

Yea Dean check that for her would you. The manufacturer is surely lying.

[sfogg]

Yea Dean check that for her would you. The manufacturer is surely lying.

Craig,

Not that I expect the Furman to not do what is claimed... but....

in this industry with all the vodoo snake oil BS that is out there it never hurts to verify something. Esp. something that is very easily checked.

For example.... I still think this would solve all of Lisa's electrical problems.

Shawn

[sfogg]

BTW... be sure to read the 'Manufacturers Comments' on that. Some of the funniest things I have read in a long time.

Shawn

[meagain]

Flanj - Thanks. Didn't know that.

The way I see it... I have to get a voltage Regulator like the affordable Furman. In addition - I have to put a 15 amp fuse on this circuit, buy watt meter, add watt numbers running and ensure it's not maxed. Test to see if I can find fried wires in the line, buy an amp switcher to try to save tube life, figure out the ground thing so my nice TV doesn't blow up (this bothers me), and buy new Power Tubes. LOL Ouch!

Mark - what power tubes are you running? I've been buying the VAs. (Oh yea, and while I'm at it, I need Jolida CDP tubes too so curious if you've been playing with that and had an epiphany).