Finally, CD's with the sound of real analog!

[jt1stcav]

Your faith must be SORELY tried! I'd conduct liturgy in my listening room before exposing myself to such a thing. But, of course, the world is full of divers paths to the Eternal.

So true! But the sad thing is I believe the majority of our Catholic congregation (if not everyone) don't care a bit about traditional church hymns anymore, or even the lack of use of the Rodgers organ...they're perfectly content with the "contemporary" songs that these subpar musicians perform on the Yamaha keyboard/Roland V-Drums/Ibanez bass guitar! What kills me is the music director/keyboardist will use the various "Hammond" voices the majority of the time while playing the Yamaha...if he digs the B-3 and Leslie sound, then he should go to the Guitar Center I used to work at and buy the vintage '56 tube-powered model on display in their keyboard department, or at least play the Rodgers with the tremelos on! And when our new church was designed, there are two "chamber" rooms above and behind either side of the alter that are big enough to house a small pipe organ (the Rodgers tone cabinets are installed in each room now, with a generic latticework made of wood to cover the grille cloth to each opening).

I'm not familiar with Crumhorn Labs: Hauptwerk Virtual Pipe Organ sampler (yet...just glanced over their home page). I do know of (and heard MP3s of) Vienna Symphonic Library and their Vienna Instruments Collection: Vienna Konzerthaus Organ sampler (also very realistic IMO). I know my dad designed many consoles over the years with MIDI devices installed in them for recording and playback of performances, and I've also heard a few electronic 32' pedal ranks added to pipe organs (one such organ had several Sunfire subwoofers installed within the pedal division inside the chambers to good effect)! But I'm not familiar with sample software and how they're installed and used...I assume either Windows and Mac versions are downloaded on computer hard drives, but then how are the various ranks "played" on the computer? Is a MIDI keyboard controller or synth/workstation used, and do you need a sequencer like Cakewalk as well? I assume the music notes are either punched in on the computer keyboard one note at a time, or a single passage or a set of chords are played upon a MIDI keyboard and recorded in seperate tracks on the sequencer...I guess I'm wondering how any organ music is performed with these samplers, unless an actual pipe organ console is fitted with a MIDI device so two hands and your feet can perform the music live, I dunno.[*-)]

Sorry for wandering off topic a little...

[Mallette]

No sweat, Jim. It's my thread and this is a wander that appeals to me.

I set up Hauptwerk in my old home with a single MIDI keyboard. All stop setting and such are done on the screen. You can add as many keyboards as you want and assign them. I'd figured it would not be hard to get an old pedalboard and rig it to operate a keyboard.

Is it the real thing? No. OTOH, it is sonically as good or better than an Allen or Rodgers and you can download great instruments you ain't never going to get your mits on otherwise.

As to your parish, I assume the capital "C" in Catholic means Roman. Many of my Roman friends decry the descent of that great tradition into modernity. My old parish of Annunciation used to participate in an ecumenical week prior to Easter where, as we put it, we used to demonstrate to our Roman neighbors "how catholic is DONE" with smells, bells, and 9th century Sarum mass. We invited them to the rail for communion (of course) and some came in tears.

As I said, there are many ways to approach the Eternal, but the "auld tyme religion" proven over 18 centuries works for me!

Dave

[boom3]

My RS PZM clones take a 357 coin battery

[pauln]

This is a nice and thought provoking thread...

Who, I can't believe you don't listen to organ music! The

organ is probably first place among the most significant music this planet has

produced, most of it by old Bach himself. Part of the mystique is that apart

from choral or other accompaniment, the organ is a "solo" instrument

played by one person yet provides the expanse and majesty of a full orchestra

of musicians. The output is the work of one performer using both hands and feet

and the possibilities of the instrument are virtually infinite; Gould, Biggs,

even Powers et al playing Bach is overwhelming.

There is a historical continuity to the instrument as it is

basically the same now and then - what you hear today could be produced back

then as well.

In modern life today most of what people hear on the organ

is in church, and I am sad to relay that the choice of music in almost all

church services is not meant to create the profound and delightful musical

shock and awe of which the organ is capable - it is to create a peaceful,

sedated, comfortable, sort of sickly sweet ambience of thoughtful

contemplation. To me most of the modern church organ music is truly repulsive

from a musical standpoint. Although the low bass does stir people with a sound

they have not heard anywhere else, the usual choice of music for my tastes is

just too sleepy and gentle filled with "uplifting" major sixth and

major seventh chords (Yech!) that probably spin old Bach in his grave. To me it

sounds like old folks' home background Muzak playing in the day room. Boy are

all the church listeners going to be surprised when they get to heaven - its

all hard Bach organ 24/7...

Bach is the beginning and the end of Western music - there

is nothing musical that he did not invent and explore. No one has really

invented anything new since Bach. Even my favorite - King Crimson (I have 16

albums) could not have recorded a single note of phrase without the

comprehensive influence of Bach. Even the new indy kids that think they are so

on the edge of new sound are ignorant of the fact that Bach invented the whole

idea of having a low instrument play the supportive harmonic structure

accompanied by mid and high range instruments to play the melodic structures.

Bach is like an ocean within which we fish don't even know that we are wet...

[Mallette]

My RS PZM clones take a 357 coin battery

Must be a later model... What's the voltage?

[jt1stcav]

Thanks for the info, Dave. Never using sample software before I wasn't quite sure how it would be used. Have to admit the digital recording of each and every note to every rank, including the reverberation/acoustics of the building its in, is truely breathtaking and virtually realistic to the actual instruments. The early Allen Digital organs from the '70s never sounded that convincing!

Back in the late '80s when my dad and I built our little home studio, I had an inexpensive Yamaha portable keyboard that was "not" General MIDI compliant. Later we bought a Roland SoundCanvas GS sound modual (which "was" General MIDI compliant) and a DOS Cakewalk 4.0 sequencer (we hadn't used Windows 3.1 yet), and as you know my dad and I typed in each and every note on any given sheet of music into the sequencer manually using the computer keyboard (since neither of us are organists and can play from sheet music). When the music was finally edited, arranged (registered), and finished the way we wanted it, it was then played back on the residence pipe organ thru the homemade playback-only MIDI device my dad had designed and built inside the console and in the organ's relay.

It took months sometimes to finish a piece of music. But when you sat back and listened to a great Bach prelude and fugue, or a piece by Franck and Widor, or even an arrangement of The Star Spangled Banner by Virgil Fox (also arranged music after the styles of E. Power Biggs, Jean Guillou, Peter Hurford, Michael Murray, et al), you couldn't help but smile knowing we created all that music in the style of an actual organist's performance by painstakingly typing in every note and controller on many tracks of the sequencer from the computer keyboard, all the while listening to a CD section by section, over and over, trying to duplicate an organist's playing style and registration choices (which also wasn't easy since they were usually recorded playing on 100+ rank church or concert organs, and all we had at our disposal was a 19 rank instrument, although with choice ranks that made up the foundation for a decent American Classic voiced instrument).

If only I had known you years earlier and had you professionally record the instrument back in its heyday...wow, what recordings they would've been!

And yeah, the Roman Catholic Mass in many (but not all) churches today is a far cry from the traditional "auld tyme religion" I grew up on (and my mom grew up with Mass in Latin...we're so far removed from that time frame anymore it's not funny)!

[Mallette]

I've a lot of regrest about that, but I always realized yours had to be deeper living with that thing under your nose and non-functional. However, you had some great times with your dad! I think you would have a lot of fun with Hauptwerk. It may not be the "real thing" but it's a heckuva lot easier to weed and feed, and you will never be limited in divisions and resources.

I had a LOT of fun entering music note at a time into Deluxe Music on the old Amiga in the 80's. Actually used some of in videos I was producing at the time.

As to the mass, I'll never give in. I am open to change in almost anything, but certain things are inherently unimprovable. The mass is one of those things. Of course, Latin is something the Anglican Catholic tradition abandoned over 400 years ago for basically the same reasons as Vatican II, but I still love it as I've sung it many times in many settings. I've heard your new head bishop is loosing up about it. Maybe the next one will even let the rest of us join you at the rail (which I do anyway, don't ask, don't tell[]). All things in good time...

Dave

[Mallette]

On the original topic, I await with interest those who've ordered up from this source. Whatever the source, if you've never heard a superb performance of great music on a monumental organ in fine acoustics on your system, you've missed.

Dave

[jt1stcav]

Yeah, Dave, we both miss the instrument. But since our folks retired and moved in with us brothers, and he needed the organ's chamber for his prosperous radio repair business, we just didn't have a choice but to sell it. The organ still played from the console, natch, but the MIDI was fried and none of the hundreds of music files we had arranged throughout the '80s was playable. And since I was later laid off, I certainly didn't have the thousands of dollars to replace the DIY MIDI setup (that worked beautifully for over a decade) with a professional model my dad had installed in numerous organs up north with Foley-Baker. Life can be cruel at times...having that wonderful pipe organ at our disposal since '83 was a sheer joy; a labor of love for my dad just to design and build (I missed out for I was in the Army during that time) and having it sound way better than we had ever thought possible!

Who knows...maybe the new owner up in Asheville will eventually reinstall the organ with MIDI for his personal enjoyment (he was still unsure if he'd have MIDI when he removed it). Maybe in the future if the organ's playable thru MIDI and if I ever get the chance to visit his Victorian home and hear the organ again, maybe...just maybe...I could upload my old MIDI files and have the organ play those compositions once again. Imagine that...if that day ever comes and all our music can be performed once again on the original instrument it was arranged for...guess who I'd call to record it (hint, hint)![]

Edit: Dave's so right. Hearing a grand pipe organ in all its splendor in its natural surroundings on your own audio system is a real treat (and a workout for your Klipsch and/or subwoofers). Especially in a treated music room that's been acoustically tweaked for near-perfect sound production, and then played back to near-live levels...all I can say is WOW!

[fiddlefye]

Thanks to all who've posted to this thread, I've enjoyed all of the thoughts. I've spent lots of time in the company of pipe organs of all stripes, from the big Romantic brutes to positiv chamber organs and everything in between and I love the lot of them. If you want to find out what your system is REALLY about, find a great organ recording and let it loose. Try some Romantic, the whole range of instruments and discover what is really a wonderful world of sound.

[Mallette]

Thanks to all who've posted to this thread, I've enjoyed all of the thoughts. I've spent lots of time in the company of pipe organs of all stripes, from the big Romantic brutes to positiv chamber organs and everything in between and I love the lot of them. If you want to find out what your system is REALLY about, find a great organ recording and let it loose. Try some Romantic, the whole range of instruments and discover what is really a wonderful world of sound.

Welcome aboard, fiddlefye, and Amen. I started out with E. Power Biggs and a disdain for anything but classic trackers. Then I fell in love with French organ music, next thing you know it's Skinner and such, then I discovered the absolute joy of the theater organ. While I can't put a time on it, I intend to set up some downloads of my own and other (non-copyrighted) organ stuff for download as soon as life allows. A couple of years ago a forum poster shared a freely downloadble theater organ that proved to be an outstanding recording of a cracker jack instrument. I later found that, like so many, it had gone silent due to lack of funds. How anyone can not support such an artistic treasure once they've heard it romp through "Stars and Stripes Forever" is beyond me...

A mighty Wurlizter, a Hammond B3, a Flentrop, Silbermann, or Skinner. Or the organ below begun 60 years before the fall of the last vestige of the Roman Empire! Can ANYTHING be more glorius?

[boom3]

My RS PZM clones take a 357 coin battery

Must be a later model... What's the voltage?

It's a silver-oxide 1.5 v type.

[Mallette]

Same as the orginal. If it is quiet enough and you are happy, leave well enough alone. If you really get serious you can get Crowns on Ebay. Haven't checked lately but I think I averaged around 125.00 each for the 4 I needed.

Dave

[oscarsear]

Received the Gothic "Midnight in The Grand Court" CD yesterday.   It is an impressive piece of work.  There is a background "misting hum" that is not as predominant as expected.  For anyone who seriously wants to learn how well their bass can perfom this CD that will provide that opportunity.  Not being too familiar with the pipe organ genre the music seemed somewhat majestically ecclesiastical to me but it really is superbly recorded.  Some of the bass runs will bust up kidney stones if ya have any.  I have several CDs that I employ to assess my system versus others.  Ray Lynch's "Deep Breakfast" is one.  This will be another.  Though I do own other pipe organ CDs (as part of classical collections) they truly pale in comparsion to this production.  The instrument merits the attention the unique and prescise recording technique afforded it.  No other single instrument can deliver the enormous volume of sound that a pipe organ does.  This one has nearly 29,000 pipes.  It is built into a performance arena designed exclusively for just this instrument.  The artist Richard Conte is a grand master of the organ and this is his baby  He plays it every day.  The recording is direct to digital and was done in the wee hours of the day with zero artifact.  The misting hum is merely the volume of air whooshing through the massive pipe array sustaining its performance bias.  That it is on the CD at all is indicative of how well the instrument was captured.  Should you desire to demonstrate the performance boundaries of your system this CD would serve you well.     ......and it is not ungodly expensive either.

[Mallette]

"......and it is not ungodly expensive either. "

Isn't that refreshing? I've heard CD's, SACD's, and DVD-A that sounded worse for up to three times as much and advertised as "super fi" and such. One of the interesting things about getting basic about recording is that it makes it both better and LESS expensive to produce. Roger uses Kimber cables and such that are not exactly cheap, but why not when you don't have a bunch of bucks in excess mikes, mixers, and processing stuff? Personally, I am happy with Mogami, but if I were doing this for a living I'd use the names the audio freaks know as well just for effect...and maybe they do make a difference.

Anyway, seems you reached virtually the same conclusions I did and I am particularly pleased that organ is not your usual cup of tea. That makes you a hard sell and objective. However, you may find yourself hooked. These instruments deliver intricacies of sonic delight nothing else can provide. I've become something of a collector of a single Franck piece, his B minor chorale. The work itself is a mind trip of monumental proportions with emotional highs and lows that bring me from tears of loss to explosions of joy. Then, there is the fact that every performer not only performs it differently, but chooses different stops and creates his/her own textures. Beyond these thing, every organ is a completely different entity with it's own resources and residing in a unique acoustical space, which, like the wood of the whiskey barrel, adds flavor and refinement. Finally, of course, there is the recording engineers approach to the whole thing.

...and I didn't even get to the playback system!

It's a garden of endless delights...

Dave

[jt1stcav]

It's nice to know there are high-end recording labels out there today that really know how to digitally record the pipe organ and its surroundings and truely make them "not" sound like the early discs of the '80s. Another such label was Dorian out of Troy, NY (now defunkt...I don't know why as of yet). I believe French organist Jean Guillou recorded exclusively with the label, and Amazon.com is one such site that still sell many Dorian discs. Any one of Guillou's recordings would justify the added search necessary to find and order one IMO.

[Mallette]

Mark:

Bit safer here than over in the "Trends" brouhaha. [] Rarely any trolling or bear baiting in discussions of pure art.

Your opinion is eagerly awaited.

Dave

[Erik Mandaville]

"Rarely any trolling or bear baiting in discussions of pure art. "

Were any innovative electronics or techniques used in these recordings?

An example of what I was talking about. It was a gut level response, and how it was made was not important.

I would like to hear these myself.

Erik

[Travis In Austin]

Mark:

Bit safer here than over in the "Trends" brouhaha. [] Rarely any trolling or bear baiting in discussions of pure art.

Your opinion is eagerly awaited.

Dave

Mallette,

Did that real analog thing make it to you yet? The thing with the sound of reel analog, that makes you realize that CD's just don't have the sound of reel analog?[:$]

It shoud be there by now.

Travis

[Mallette]

Travis:

You're either not looking or busy defending a really tough one. See "DWILAWYER: AWWMYGAWD" further down...

Dave