Just in - Review of RSW-15, SVS Ultra & HGS 18

[TheEAR]

Lets see a BagEnd Infra18 in the comparo review next time.I know BagEnd subs are musical but I am not so sure about them being capable of BIG output.And lets see a Sunfire Signature,Velodybe SPL1200,Revel B15,Aerial SW12,Infinity Intermezzo sub,B&W ASW4000 and the awesome SVS SS and and yes the JBL Ti-K subs(tow units slave and master sub). Now we would have a REAL idea where the best stands.The Wilson and Krell subs are too damn expensive and not practical for most of us(even me,damit).

Like TV said BagEnd uses HEAVY EQ boost to make their subs "flat" down low.And the output down to 8Hz is a joke,a good sun needs to be strong down to 16Hz and its A ok.

The HGS18 is potent down to below 14Hz(yes the SPL will not tear walls).

Sunfire subs are for HT,the Signature has more output then a BagEnd even the unit you have.The Sunfire is not as clean as the larger subs but who says an explosion is clean.LOL

For me two to four SVS SS would do just fine and end my sub bass quest for at lest...two years.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TVodhanel]

Ears, if you're serious about 2-4 SS tubes, email me at

techsupport@svsubwoofers.com

1)we can custom finish your tubes to anything...so if you want to send in a swatch of material from your listening room and say match that...our custom cabinet guys match it.

2)We can put together a custom package for you too...,maybe...

(4)SS cylinders

(1)Crown K2

(1)5 band parametric EQ.

We can even have the speaker cables custom made for you by bettercables if you wish.

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On the Infra, Don Keele did extensive measurements on the Infra for AUDIO a couple years ago. At silly-low output levels(70dB?)...it was flat to the 8-16hz range. However, as the output levels increased to more realistic HT SPLs(100-105dBs)...the Infra's limiters capped extension around 35-40hz. It's not a bad subwoofer, but you'll be missing out on a whole octave(16-32hz)of bass even at moderate listening levels)

One advantage of this limitation though...

The deeper the extension, the longer the bass will take to *decay* in a room. So the subs that can't do much <40hz are often cited as being *musical and fast* by the golden ears. There's nothing wrong with personal preferences of course...even Brian states the RSW15 seems to do great with music(and it's rolling off hard by 30hz!). But real life doesn't filter out the first octave. Think of the way thunder decays, or the way a train rushing past sounds...there's nothing *fast* about LOW bass in real life.

TV

[TheEAR]

TV,

I e-mailed SVS

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[mike stehr]

I think its around 40 50 hertz, Deang.

Ear's goin' for some SS's! Right on Ear!

I hope things work out for ya on this venture.

Four SS's! nuts! make sure to power them

with 4 separate mono blocks now!

Enough bass to !

[TheEAR]

"just remember ears - money can't buy love"

LOL

DUH

Money can't buy love true,money can still buy alot.

Money leads the world we live in,money is still king and God to some.

I want to start with one SVS SS and then if this beast trounces my current subs I will add three more.

I have a Carver TFM-75 power amp(dual mono),it can deliver a kilowatt RMS per channel into 4 Ohms!I think this should be plenty to drive any sub into high gear and ears into protected mode.

Sub Bass to make you...

Like I said I want sub bass @ 16Hz to reach near 120dB in room.This way my sub bass goal will be completed.With the SVS SS I think I have a good shot at it.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Manuel Delaflor]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheEAR:

Money leads the world we live in,money is still king and God to some.

---

To some extent only... some of the richiest persons I know have horrible lifes. Peace of mind, good health, a good partner, pleasurable job and a loving family... are FAR more important than any amount of money.

[eglinski]

Hmm, maybe I should consider buying A CS-Ultra+ instead of another Infro sub,would it be easy to set the x-over at40 cps and run both subs? also could the CS-ULTRA+ intergrate well with K-Horns if it was in an opposite corner aprox 35ft.away Cheers Ed. Theears your A sick pup,,,lol in A good way though, isn't this like an addiction? Im hooked to

[montigue]

Very well said Manuel. Money comes and goes but freinds and family are far more important.

It's still nice to have enough money to buy a SVS sub though

Monty

[boa12]

"From 20-38hz....it shows 100-104dB. So that's 11-15dB under reference level with all speakers set to large..and a full 17-21dB under minimum reference levels with all speakers set to small."

Another review measured around 123db @ about 31.5hz w/ the hgs-18. ears' revel did about 126db around there.

brian's figures aren't at full output are they?

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My Home Systems Page

[TheEAR]

I cant say if his figures are MAXIMUM PEAK SPL,what I can say is the Revel B15 has more output then the Velodyne HGS18 over 25Hz in my room.

The Aerial Acoustics sound alot like a SVS Ultra driven by a high end bass amp like the big Bryston.

I dont really need all that output,it makes me sick sometimes.

Its still fun to have a Porsche 959 even if you drive on roads where the lowly 100km/h limit is in effect.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[raneman]

As my father says, always marry for money, because you can learn to love, but you can't learn to money

Sorry I don't have anything useful to say about this topic. You guys have it covered way past my knowledge. Thanks for all the great info. on this post.

[TVodhanel]

>>>Another review measured around 123db @ about 31.5hz w/ the hgs-18. ears' revel did about 126db around there.

brian's figures aren't at full output are they? <<<

I think Brian said he kept increasing output until there was a definite shift in the bass quality of each subwoofer. Since the HGS18 would limit THD, the shift might have been because the response changed so radically. So keep THD so low, the HGS18 would put a hard cap on the cone excursions...that's probably why <40hz it just stops getting louder.

Brian measured at a 4m distance too,in the HGS18 review at hometheaterhifi...they measured at 1m I believe. (big difference )

When Nousaine measured the FSR15...it maxxed out at 109.8dB/31hz.

the HGS15 would be about 1dB less than that. And the HGS18 would be about 3-4dB more than the HGS15. So figure 112(ish)/31hz for the HGS18 if TN measured it.

Our OLD 20-39cs hit 114.9dB/31hz using TN's rather strict 10% thd limit)

So it had about 50%(3dB) more output than the HGS18.(our current 20-39s would handily outgun the older models btw...handily).

So...assuming we add even just 1dB to the current 20-39s...our dual 20-39cs/S700 package would hit

114.9+6(for the second woof)+1( for all the current improvements)=121.9dB.

So it would take about 3-4 of the HGS18s to match our $1199 package at 31hz.

In this spirit...I think the 5-6HGS18s to match our CS_Ultra package would also be accurate

TV

[boa12]

TV, good point, I forgot about the distance differences. but I'd like to see tests measuring over 1 HGS-18 to believe that it would take that many of 'em to equal those various svs in spl.

& this review's test used subjective decisions on output like you stated above. looks like the hgs-18 was kept under wraps for better reproduction on music while the SVS were turned loose for HT. maybe that has some to do w/ why brian liked the hgs more for music & the svs for HT. but sounds to me like the svs do well on music too. maybe they need to be turned down some, like it sounds the hgs was, to pick up that better quality for music? but like it's been said, the ear of the listener is unique anyway.

iow, at some point isn't there a tradeoff between SPL and bass quality, fe thd? I know the answer is yes, but i guess what you're saying is the limiter on the hgs won't allow it to reach a high enough thd to get to those svs level spls. even w/ 3-6 subs vs 2.

is there a formula for additional subs beyond 2?

or do u get +6db for each & every sub added in the same corner more or less?

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My Home Systems Page

[TVodhanel]

>>>TV, good point, I forgot about the distance differences. but I'd like to see tests measuring over 1 HGS-18 to believe that it would take that many of 'em to equal those various svs in spl.

& this review's test used subjective decisions on output like you stated above. looks like the hgs-18 was kept under wraps for better reproduction on music while the SVS were turned loose for HT. maybe that has some to do w/ why brian liked the hgs more for music & the svs for HT. but sounds to me like the svs do well on music too. maybe they need to be turned down some, like it sounds the hgs was, to pick up that better quality for music? but like it's been said, the ear of the listener is unique anyway.<<<

Hard to say for sure...some folks just like bass one way, other folks like it the other way I guess.

>>>iow, at some point isn't there a tradeoff between SPL and bass quality, fe thd? I know the answer is yes,<<<

Yes,of course. When Tom Nousaine measures...he uses a strict 10%thd hardcap. When Brian measured..he just used the point at which he felt the subwoofer sound started to seem strained. I can't qualify how Brian's interpretation of *strained* might equat to Tom Nousaine's THD measurements though.

>>>but i guess what you're saying is the limiter on the hgs won't allow it to reach a high enough thd to get to those svs level spls. even w/ 3-6 subs vs 2.is there a formula for additional subs beyond 2?

or do u get +6db for each & every sub added in the same corner more or less?<<<

every time you double, you get (in theory)6dB.

1=x

2=x+6

4=x+12

8=x+18

16=x+24

ect,

TV

[boa12]

thanks tv. i could see getting maybe 1 more hgs-18 at most in my lifetime, but 4 svs ultra or ss is a definite possibility. i can see it all now - khorn fronts, a belle center, cornwall rears & 4 big svs.

that's what dreams are made of.

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My Home Systems Page

[TheEAR]

Boa when you compare a SVS Ultra(pair) to just about any sub under 10K you'll hear the power SVS brings to HT and music.Just the JBL Ti-K subs(master,slave)configuration is the only true(SPL) opposition for SVS.The JBL however are expensive around 10K for two subs!

I have my goals set...start with one SVS SS and add three more.What can I say? No cure for my sub sickness found yet!

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[mike stehr]

There, that should make this the 100th post on this

thread.

What's the difference between a SVS Ultra,

and a standard SVS?

I know drivers for one, but are they any

enclosure design differences?

Couldn't a guy throw a Ultra driver

in a standard SVS enclosure?

Or do the Ultra enclosures have beefier end caps?

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

[Colin]

TV, you are being simplistic in your analysis, the HGS was good for HT because it is boomy in the middle of the sub-woofer range and extended low, most of the other subs Brian reviewed are merely boomy in the middle of their range. What makes the SVS subs superior is where their put their low bass - down deep where full range speakers really need the help if people are actually seeking flat and accurate reproduction. (I am not so sure about that, actually. I think most of us really want lots of mid-bass punch; something the RSW15 excels at.)

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

[boa12]

great colin, now i have to defend my hgs again 1st this review is not the gospel. many subjective decisions were made on both bass quality & quantity (spl level based on the point he FELT bass quality "deteriorated").

the velo hgs are far from boomy anywhere on the spectrum, unless they're not set up right. perhaps u chose another word for loud.

on other tests the hgs-18 hits low & hard. flat to 12.5hz & measures down to 8hz & below. in fact it's hallmark is it's extension w/ such high spl under 20hz, & w/ low distortion (thd).

again though very good & informative, this review's test is not gospel. i believe the chart(s) show a good deal of room response & preferences on settings. i've seen more scientific tests on the hgs that measure much higher spl w/ more flat response all the way to 12.5hz (without EQ). an hgs-18 is pretty close to a single ultra in max spl all the way down the frequency spectrum in the standard controlled tests (less than 10% distortion @ 1 meter).

many say the hgs is more of an HT sub because it has higher spl below 20hz than most other subs, although it has pretty high spl above 20hz too. brian felt

it to be the better music sub not so much because of spl, but due to qualatative factors (harmonics, low thd, etc.).

that's another thing. spl is not the whole picture. that's why it's best to 1st listen to 'em w/ one's sys. u have the bass quality factors like transients, harmonics, pitch definition, thd.

the hgs-18 has a 3000W peak class D amp driving a super stiff 18" cone in a pretty good sized box. it could be designed for much more spl w/ what it has, but they felt they'd try & design in some things for the sake of bass Quality such as the relatively smaller box, a lil less peak to peak, & primarily the high gain servo/accelerometer electronics.

that being said, on paper i'd choose 2 or 4 SVS ultra/ss to try out for a main sys for both music & HT.

they are THE value out there. i could get 4 of them for around the price of only 2 hgs-18. ain't no replacement for displacement & the design & tv's know- how look to be outstanding. if they sound right i'd even keep 'em - i have a feeling they would

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My Home Systems Page

[TheEAR]

Yep this thing is still going strong.

Let me add some more here

The HGS line,Sunfire,Klipsch RSW line,SVS,Revel and Aerial are NOT boomy.

The KSW line is boomy.

What is boomy?

To me its coloration created my the port,the cabinet,internal resonance combined with room gain to cause audible distortion,deformation of bass(or sub bass).Very non linear AND defomed.

The Klipsch RSW10 I have on test is very clean,fast and even with is uneven response cannot be called boomy.HGS are not at all boomy.The cleanest being the Aerial Acoustics,Infinity Intermezzo/Prelude subs.

The KSW series are boomy,Sony subs are as boomy as a drum(plain garbage).Most inexpensive(under $400 including amp)subs are undefined and boomy(one notey).

Some of the most overrated are the Paradigm band pass 800,1000 and 1200 subs.One notey,not that boomy just very undefined.But they please alot of users...big output for peanuts.SVS at least combines output and QUALITY,alot of quality.

TheEAR(s) Now theears