Just in - Review of RSW-15, SVS Ultra & HGS 18

[TheEAR]

Crash,

I am not TV from SVS but...

The cylinder subs you call silos and I call them oil barrels of doom. LOL

The DIY projects you see are mostly very large,yes as huge as water heaters and some as large they could be used to hide a Apollo moon rocket in them.

Yes almost all these designs will give you massive output down to 20Hz and lower.Simple they use large heavy duty extra long throw drivers and the charge(volume)of the cylinder is ideal for these drivers.So what you end up with is massive output no conventional compact sub(even the HGS18 is compact)can match.

SVS subs are much smaller and should fit in a corner or alongside the wall and hide quite well.TV does not use off the shelf drivers as he works with TC Sounds who design the drivers for SVS.Not off shelf.Even the basic CS and PC series use qigh quality quality and high performance drivers.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TVodhanel]

>>>Hey TV,

You weren't too helpful on providing a reason to "skip on the getting dusty" bit.

Tell me this - are you making the SVS' out of that same Solotube stuff?<<<

No...we use custom designed cylindrical enclosures manufactured specifically to our specs.

>>> Are your drivers off-the-shelf parts? The pictures on your site aren't disguising water heaters, are they?<<<

No off the shelf drivers..I wish it was that easy. Each of the 3 distinct drivers we now use took so much of my time to optimize for each application...I don't even want to think about it.(in the hundreds of hours per driver range)

That's not to say good DIY results can't be had starting out with an *off the shelf* driver of course.

>>>I have found another dozen or so projects based on the Solotube - some closely resemble Ron's and some are ugly as hell. They all are based on the same general design and all claim to have outstanding performance - flat to 18, flat to 19, yada, yada, yada. Unfortunately, most simply look like water heaters and/or missle silo's. I am talking about 2-2 1/2 feet in circumference and 6 ft. tall. Jesus, my wife won't go for that s_it - oh, honey, I have two missile silo's to stick in the HT.<<<

There's always a trade off between the DIY benefits and the size of the enclosures that tend to work best for DIYing. Once you start shrinking the enclosures...you may need to get into PRs(instead of ports)...heavy EQ(to maintain a flat response),ect. This can all work well, but it can also be time consuming and add greatly to the original expense estimates.

>>>C'mon, TV. Give me some incentive or hope here. What are the benefits or improvements in a SVS that won't be in the DIY? I will tell you two but you can't use these: I don't have to go through the effort of building it (and possibly screwing the pooch doing so) and it won't be a friggin water heater to get good bass. Again, the question is why?<<<

I'm not sure what to say really. With the SVs you're getting verified performance, and unparalleled customer support for a good price(imo). DIYing can work well...if you have the time and skill(tools) needed. But there's no assurance the unit will work well(although it certianly should if you spend enough time researching the design factors involved),and if there's a problem with the unit in a couple weeks...*you are* the techsupport

>>>And while you are giving me those answers, what size amp will be built into the powered CS+'s<<<

undetermined at this time,...about half a kilowatt I'm hoping for anyway,

TV

[erdric]

TV,

Do you have a more definite time frame for a PC+ than 'spring' as it says on the 'SVS News' page? Does this spring mean March or late May? Is the PC+ going to be priced about what the CS+ and amp combo is?

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Primary System:

Main KG-4

Center KV-3

Rear RS-3

Yamaha HTR-5250

Sony DVP-S560D

Panasonic PV-9664

Sony DBS system

Studio:

Main KG-3

Sony STR-AV920

Pioneer PD-4351

[TVodhanel]

I would say MAY would be a more accurate guess at this point. We're planning on pricing the PC+ in the same area as the CS+/Samson combos.

TV

[erdric]

TV,

Thanks for the info on the PC+.

------------------

Primary System:

Main KG-4

Center KV-3

Rear RS-3

Yamaha HTR-5250

Sony DVP-S560D

Panasonic PV-9664

Sony DBS system

Studio:

Main KG-3

Sony STR-AV920

Pioneer PD-4351

[h2xmark]

hey guys a couple of questions,1 in brians article on page 3 he says{sound pressure level is not a pressure wave but a logarithmic measurement of actual acoustic energy intensity}.then he talks about distance from speaker stating that if a speaker is rated at 120 bd at 1 meter every time you double the distance you lose 6 db. so that sub that played 120 at 1meter ,plays 114 at 2 meters and 108 at 4 meters, so these test brian did were at 12 feet close to 4 meters so if you use his shake value on the rsw15 was 2.4{93db@20hz}that was at 12 feet so if you add 6db to equal test at 6 feet{2meters}were T.N. tests at you would have a value of 99db at 20 hz's pretty strong in my book on T.N. page a single svs 20-39 was 91db at 20 hz and a dual 20-39 setup was 97db at 20 hz only the ultra's did better ,well what are your thoughts on that? pretty close well if you believe brians review it must be, also when brian tested the rsw15 he says on reference1 :u471 played clean but to get the rumble i wanted caused the 60 -80 hz range to be too pronounced,why did'nt he adjust the crossover like he did when he tested the svs ultras ,{reference3 with some changing of the crossover points the sub"}sounds like he really tried to make the ultras sound the best,i hope he did the same for the other subs in the review ,also Bob G do you have any test results that would show if you had the RSW15 backwards like brian did in his review would that effect the performance of the speaker? thanks for any and all reply's ,Mark

This message has been edited by h2xmark on 01-04-2002 at 10:36 PM

[Guest BobG]

I spoke with Brian yesterday. Turns out he had the sub with the control panel facing the corner - in other words, it was not backwards.

[h2xmark]

thanks for the reply Bob ,i went by the local Klipsch dealer the other day,in the corner was a RSW15 satin black still in the box,man i sure wanted to hear it,i asked why they did'nt have it out of the box,the manager told me to take it home and try it out,what a surprise that was to hear,well i'm going by tomorrow in my truck to pick it up,and take it for a "test drive",the people at Brock Audio are great people,he said if i don't like it bring it back, i will use it for music 75%

HT 25% i can't wait to add the sub to my 4 KLF20's and a KLFc7 center,i will post results soon, Mark

[Manuel Delaflor]

I wonder... has anybody actually reviewed a DIY sonosub against the commercial ones like SVS and HSU? It would be really interesting... Specially if frequency response and SPL tests are performed.

I know, every DIY proyect is a little different, so the results will be impossible to translate to actual performance of every sonosub... still, it would be really interesting!

[TheEAR]

DIY subs if the design is good and IF you buy high quality bass drivers will outperform I would say all of the comercial subs by a wide margin(SVS and HSU are very close to DIY,maximum bass for your dollar).

The tubes SVS and HSU uses dont cost a fortune and with a typical optimisation program and proper data one can build a very impressive sub.

Then comes the power amp and space to fit often a very large box or cylinder.Subs may be built like towers(cylinders)to save space,with the woofers close to the floor and vents on the back(on top for cylinder subs).

TV from SVS has(still has?) a page with pics of his subs.Very impressive(number and size)subs and a load of them in one room!

I think TV from SVS can asnwer this better then just about anybody.With all the DIY subs he built he is to be cosidered a sort of sub bible.

Its the only sane(or insane)person who has more subs then me! LOL

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Manuel Delaflor]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheEAR:

DIY subs if the design is good and IF you buy high quality bass drivers will outperform I would say all of the comercial subs by a wide margin(SVS and HSU are very close to DIY,maximum bass for your dollar).

---

Yes, that's what I think. Still, as a newbie on all this matters, it woudn't hurt to read a size to size comparo...

Anyway, I have read extensibly that using, for example, a Tempest($150), Blueprint 1803($249), or even a Mass 2012($330) with a good amp one can outperform almost every comercial sub.

Now, I also wonder about the musicality of the sub, not only the slam. In this case, I have fears that I can do a really powerful sub that goes down to 18Hz (or so) and it's wonderful for HT BUT not for music!

As Im a newbie I don't know if all those parameters to select the size of the cabinet, the tuning of the port and alikes can do something for the musicality of a sub? perhaps using a parametric equalizer to have a flat response will help? What about the speed of the drivers?

Im confused!

[avman]

along with some new 'goodies',i just 'finished' renovating my ht room! it looks GREAT! hope to post pix of the process and results soon. i've ordered a rsw-15, and this will be my sub. PERIOD. i beleive it will augment my klf-30's and other speakers quite nicely, and i'm glad to have an all-klipsch system, this may be the first single sub klipsch has made that will do justice to the '30's'. i've used (had to) TWO ksw-15's and then ksw-300's with the same three other speakers i have now just so the subs could make an impact. i'll let you know how it goes, my 777ES's bass management allows down to a 40Hz roll-off to the sub for the l,r;center and rears, i will probably set the center and rears to 60-70Hz, and the '30's' to 40Hz...

results to follow..some tracks/chapters i will try first: ac/dc stiff upper lip dvd-'for those about to rock'-can't wait to hear the cannon fire!; boston-SACD-'the journey'-my dad's cerwin-vegas used to make the door latch in the hall rattle! (anyone remember the cv bass escavator device?! ) ch22 of disc one 'pearl harbor'; the first song on 'yes @ the house of blues' on dvd-chris squire on bass is a beast! also the special 5.1 re-mix of 'the ladder' has wall-removing bass in it. the neighbors are pretty cool w/the outdoor spl's -so far- w/the arrival of the rsw-15, that may soon change! 'you want to p*** of the WHOLE neighborhood' is a good thing to hear when you order a sub, hope it doesn't happen-i'll be responsible w/the volume knob-(SHURE I WILL MUAHAHA!) avman-lookin'for the truck w/the BIG box in the back!

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1-pair klf 30's

c-7 center

ksps-6 surrounds

RSW-15 on the way!!

sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1

sony playstation 2

sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer

dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder

sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv

sharp xv-z1u lcd projector

panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner

monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire

KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz!

[TheEAR]

Manuel,

Few speakers have specs featuring "Acceleration Factor".Skaaning speakers even have the acceleration factor in the specs.

As you can see a 4" mid-bass will be much faster than a 8" and the 8" much faster than the 15".

This is why I think TV from SVS and Dr HSU from HSU use 12" drivers.These have good speed and still can move plenty of air.

Large drivers can be fast too,Revel,JBL,Velodyne and Klipsch with a few PRO make very fast 15" drivers.

So far the JBL 15" in the Ti-K(Revel high end sub uses a very similar driver I think)sub is the most impressive and well designed driver.Even will surpass the HGS15 driver in speed.This unit uses a 4" voice coil in a very powerful magnetic field created by a huge optimised magnetic structure.A beauty of 15" woofers,JBL knows how to design them.

Avman,

No doubt the RSW15 will beat two KSW15's,you should have more output and the KSW are faster subs so on music you should hear a good gain in bass resolution.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Colin]

one, since reading this review and hearing the mid-bass line driver array of the ML Statements, I have dialed my LF10 sub up to get more punch -

two, I am wondering how to completely silence the hum of my KSW200 -

three, I wonder what frequency response I could get if I turned my KSW200 on its back like a turtle and built a three foot box around the bottom feet?

four, I appreciate TV's input as much as BobG's - and that is a alot!

fifth, there is no democracy without dissent,

there is no dissent without freedom of expression,

there is no more expression than on the Internet,

there is no better audio forum than Klipsch.:

ergo, there is no democracy without Klipsch!

thanks for saving the world as I know it!

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

This message has been edited by Colin on 01-06-2002 at 03:34 PM

[Manuel Delaflor]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheEAR:

This is why I think TV from SVS and Dr HSU from HSU use 12" drivers.These have good speed and still can move plenty of air.

---

Sounds logical. Do you think that the speed of the driver is the most important factor when your goal is not only to reach deep bass but also good musicality?

I think I will make a couple of Mass with a good amp. That should suffice for both aplications and also make my wallet happy. True, It would need a lot of work, but hey... I have plenty of time! ;-)

Ah, and another question for you... what do you think about Martin Logan? I have the micro-version of their technology on my Monsoons. They sound pretty well and can draw a good space between them and around them. Does this tech do the same at the scale of bigger speakers? I mean, Im not completely sure that the airy sensation is good or no for pure musical enjoyment. Currently I enjoy a lot my set of Klipsch Heresy's, and in fact Im planning to ad more and make my system a HT also...

[TheEAR]

Manuel,

While speed of divers is a factor for sure I doubt one will notice and tell apart a good 12 from a good 15" at matched output.

Speed is very important to climb up in freq.,why do you think large drivers simply cant climb up in freq.?

Because they are too slow.As simple as that.

And the faster the moving membrane the better the sound quality will be.This is why well designed electrostatic and planar drivers sound so airy,so clear.They are fast,very fast.Much faster then classic dynamic speakers.

I wonder if some tried to horn load electrostatic drivers(units)?Well done this should give outstanding results.Not practical? Who knows

Electrostatics have the purest midrange(not open for debate)since there is no speaker box,just a sturdy frame designed to resonate below the driver(membrane)operating range.

The Monsoons are real bargains in the PC speaker world,they give a slice of the real thing(electrostatic)performance at a very low price poit.

While great these suffer from problems Martin Logan dont.The Monsoons can reach any realistic volume,alrge panels are bneeded to acomplish this(unles only the high freq. are covered by the panels.

I found some SoundLab large panels that sound better than Martin Logan.SoundLab is not as known as ML but they make some great panel speakers.

Classic dynamic speakers like Klipsch and many others donr require much care.Electrostatics dont like too much humidity and need almost a special room with acoustic treatment all around to really shine,I am sure few ever hear electrostatics like they should be heard.When all conditions are met electrostatics have no match in transparency and freedom from coloration.

Magical

Since I live in the real world and I dont have space I own Klipsch,Dynaudio and Spendor.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Manuel Delaflor]

"Speed is very important to climb up in freq.,why do you think large drivers simply cant climb up in freq.?

Because they are too slow.As simple as that."

Ok, I see, but as I want my sub to handle only below 40Hz perhaps I can do better with a 15 instead of 12

"I wonder if some tried to horn load electrostatic drivers(units)?Well done this should give outstanding results.Not practical? Who knows"

hehe good question, I pressume it would need an INMENSE cabinet, perhaps even a little room behind our listening position in order to work!

The Monsoons are real bargains in the PC speaker world,they give a slice of the real thing(electrostatic)performance at a very low price poit.

Agreed. Still, I found them amazing for some music and not really good for other. I mean, there are times when the airy sensation is welcomed, and others when that sensation tends to sound "fuzzy"... so, perhaps, one need both type of speakers and simply change between them in order to have the best of two worlds...

"When all conditions are met electrostatics have no match in transparency and freedom from coloration.

Magical"

It appear to be the case, what I really need at this point is to take my favourite CDs and spend sometime carefully hearing those electrostats... to bad our hearing memory is not that good!

"Since I live in the real world and I dont have space I own Klipsch,Dynaudio and Spendor."

Yes, a lot of space is needed because the back surface also irradiates sound. Hmmm... who knows... perhaps in a future this will become a good goal... once you entered the "audiophile area" there is no way out!!

[TBrennan]

Electrostats have been horn-loaded though their very weak motors don't lend themselves well to the practice. Speed in a speaker will showup as high frequency response and ESs are not particularly extended on the high-end, I think the excellent sound of ESs is because their large area-small excursion design results in low distortion. Many 15s have more extended highs than many smaller drivers, the 15" JBL D-130 will go up past 3000hz, very few hi-fi woofers of smaller sizes have such an extended top-end. Remember, mass is only part of the equation, the other half is motor strength, one can "muscle" extended highs with powerful motors, that's why Street Hemis are faster than VWs. Personally I think that a subjective sense of "speed" in a woofer has more to do with low distortion and how well the box design damps the woofer than with the mass of the driver. You can put an 8" woofer in a misalingned box and make it sound lumpy and "slow" and you can put an 18" in an optimally damped alingment and it will sound "fast". Implementation is the key.

[Jolly Roger]

Slow and fast drivers is really just another way of saying this woofer does/doesnt do what it is suppose to? I mean you ever heard a driver that was too fast? I'm sure you've heard one that is too slow. One thing that I never see mentioned is woofer excursion. Wouldn't that play a part in how fast or slow a diver sounded? I would think (me not knowing much) that the more the excursion the slower the driver would sound. seems to me this would play a bigger part than the actual size of the woofer. Also sealed box's seem to me to have a tighter sound than 'most' ported ones. jmho

[TheEAR]

Roger,

"I would think (me not knowing much) that the more the excursion the slower the driver would sound. seems to me this would play a bigger part than the actual size of the woofer."

Right on the money.The extra long throw woofers often sound vague at high SPL where the cone moves alot.

Almost all JBL pro drivers(subs)are very tight(fast)they have large cones with a very small peak to peak.Most ultra long throw bass drivers will loose definition at high volume due to the very long throw.

TheEAR(s) Now theears