Pro-amps with Klipsch...............

[stormin]

LMAO!!!!!!!!

That is an aweful lot of copy and paste there Mas. And if you would of looked closely at my small post I was referring to the K series amps that I am interested in. And not one of your links corrects that issue with the K series amps from crown. They do not publish specs for that amp for the 20hz-20khz full frequency band only 1 khz. But now if you can find it and link it from somewhere that I dont see that would be great. I'm just an interested shopper. Maybe it doesnt even matter but most amps are rated @ 20hz-20khz.

Keep laughin! But then its not me who is at a loss for data or familiarity with the amps. Note the subtle irony???

Might I suggest a little more "Thinking your @ss off"!

So what is this, a swooft tag team effort? I don' know how to cut and paste hand holding, nor will I read the data for you. And if my effort to demonstrate that Crown makes available more data that what was represented is not enough. Well...baby birds will be baby birds...

As stated, I posted an example of the typical data available for Crown amps. Ah gee, did I not jump through the hoops and paste the particular document that You were interested in. The irony of the situation is, the topic was Pro amps by Crown and I was more interested in another series. And I posted a production model.

But I erroneously assumed a slightly higher than remedial skill set for "interested shoppers" who just might be motivated to find such data! (Like baby birds in a nest are motivated to hunt for food!)

And that even neglects that fact that Crown has a free 800 number and a staff that is quite willing talk to "interested shoppers"! But then that too assumes the ability to use a telephone... Data sheets, telephones, where will the challenges end?

The fact is "interested shopper", the K Series is a "discontinued series". For those who only complain and need others to do your leg work for you, that means that they are NOT BEING MADE ANY LONGER.

But even so, the docs are quite available!

[]

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/102010.pdf

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/136713.pdf

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/k1_2calc.pdf

And there's more, but I am not a motivated "interested shopper".

I can only imagine the carnage and confusion if you ever reach the point when and if you try to figure out what to do with the long cord with the 3 prongs on it.

BTW, call up Ford or BMW and ask them to send you a brochure for their 1981 models. See what they tell an "interested shopper"....

They obviously don't give the spec other than @ 1khz so we will just let that dog lie.

As far as Ford or BMW or Chevrolet or Chrysler, I am a vendor. So they call me. How little we know eh!

Lighten up a little and have a drink on me. You said you were the Crown guru so who else would I want to ask. Geesh!

Obviously I was referring to the used market. [:|]

This is a forum for cryin out loud I didnt realize I was on the clock with my attorney. Just sharing info having a good time.

[mas]

Good, then get me the sales brochure for discontinued product from them.

And if you want information, learn to ask for it instead of whining and bitching.

I'm not your valet, your mom, nor your maid. I don't owe you a thing! Nor do I particularly enjoy the emotional gratification of catching worms for 'oh so grateful' "interested" baby birds who sit on their posteriors yelling for others to bring them food and then complaining that it isn't exactly what they want all because they are too lazy to read the data!.

Yeah, "Obviously"! That's why you couldn't find the literature under "DISCONTINUED PRODUCT"...

"Frequency Response: ±0.25 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. The frequency response is band limited with an 8 Hz double-integrated 3rd-order Butterworth high-pass filter and a 30 kHz 7th-order Gaussian low-pass filter."

"K2: 32.88 dB gain at 1.4 volt sensitivity; 25 dB gain at 3.0 volt sensitivity."

But I do have a dry sense of humor that delights in returning your 'favor' of a 'compliment'.

[stormin]

[mas]

blah blah blah

With alternate lyrics: "Waaa Waaa Waaa" "I can't find it!"

[stormin]

"Frequency Response: ±0.25 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz.

Would that be @ 1 watt maybe?

They should just post the true specs of the K2 as the MA5002VZ has done. That amp gives both the higher power specs at 1khz and the lower power specs at 20hz-20khz.

[mas]

First I want to make an official apology to Trey!

You weren't giving folks enough credit when you said that specs simply confuse allot of folks!

Especially when they unknowingly care so much regarding how efficient a heater the unit is!

@ 1 watt!? Shouldn't you be asking for "how many cubic feet" you are wanting to heat?

Or is what you really want (but don't realize!) the sensitivity of the unit?

"K2: 32.88 dB gain at 1.4 volt sensitivity; 25 dB gain at 3.0 volt sensitivity."

Here, you want "watts"; here is the calculated thermal data! I hope that it helps you calculate the required cooling load! But then I guess you think that the wattage of a light bulb tells you how intense the light output is! Or does it tell you how loud the light bulb is! Or how loud your space heater is, or for that matter how much light is output by your speaker? Do you still think that a speaker's "wattage" tells you how loud...what the sensitivity of the speaker is?

Somebody (else!), PLEASE do a tutorial on the meaning of various specs!

Wattage, of amps, speakers, light bulbs, toasters, space heaters, etc., simply tells you how much electrical energy is converted to HEAT energy! And I know that was always important to us when we were trying to figure out how many amps (as in amplifiers!) were required to boil water for coffee!

With all due respect, the data is provided, its just not in the form you may be used to seeing, and in a form that is not meaningful to you as you are not familiar with the format. Instead of complaining about the data format, you might start asking what it is about your question that a company that makes industrial amplifiers for extreme environments is or is not actually providing. And maybe what you are looking for is not that meaningful a specification!

But the problem MUST be Crown! Especially as Crown is known as being an very lax and sloppy company!

Here, pick a value...LOL!

[stormin]

First I want to make an official apology to Trey!

You weren't giving folks enough credit when you said that specs simply confuse allot of folks!

Especially when they unknowingly care so much regarding how efficient a heater the unit is!

@ 1 watt!? Shouldn't you be asking for "how many cubic feet" you are wanting to heat?

Or is what you really want (but don't realize!) the sensitivity of the unit?

"K2: 32.88 dB gain at 1.4 volt sensitivity; 25 dB gain at 3.0 volt sensitivity."

Here, you want "watts"; here is the calculated thermal data! I hope that it helps you calculate the required cooling load! But then I guess you think that the wattage of a light bulb tells you how intense the light output is! Or does it tell you how loud the light bulb is! Or how loud your space heater is, or for that matter how much light is output by your speaker? Do you still think that a speaker's "wattage" tells you how loud...what the sensitivity of the speaker is?

Somebody (else!), PLEASE do a tutorial on the meaning of various specs!

Wattage, of amps, speakers, light bulbs, toasters, space heaters, etc., simply tells you how much electrical energy is converted to HEAT energy! And I know that was always important to us when we were trying to figure out how many amps (as in amplifiers!) were required to boil water for coffee!

With all due respect, the data is provided, its just not in the form you may be used to seeing, and in a form that is not meaningful to you as you are not familiar with the format. Instead of complaining about the data format, you might start asking what it is about your question that a company that makes industrial amplifiers for extreme environments is or is not actually providing. And maybe what you are looking for is not that meaningful a specification!

But the problem MUST be Crown! Especially as Crown is known as being an very lax and sloppy company!

Here, pick a value...LOL!

Hey thanks for clearing that up for me and all the other "uneducated in audio" nuts out there.

[mas]

Sure!

It sorta makes you want to run on over to one of the "biggest woofers in the universe" threads and marvel at the 50 quadrillion watt woofers doesn't it?

And after they try to impress you, you can say, "yeah, but I got a space heater that can do that! And it only cost a fraction of the price of that woofer!"

[]

[cjgeraci]

While the QSC PLX line uses the switching power supply, some use Class H amplification and some use Class A/B. What's the big difference here and which is more suitable for use with Klipsch Heritage and tube preamps?

Mark, you may know that I've used QSC PLX 1202s with various Heritage (Khorns, Belles, Corns) and other horn speakers (RF-7s, Altecs) mated with a JM Peach, and the lowly class AB for 1202 does very, very well with Klipsch. I sold one of them recently, but my QSC PLX will always run my rear Belles. Pro amps are a huge bang for the buck and provide a surprising lack of glare for a ss amp. I could live with just QSC PLX and be happy.

All of that being said, my main Klipschorns will be run by my VRDs for a long while.............................................

Carl.

[mark1101]

Carl,

I also have VRDs and I know it is apples and oranges but could you make any kind of comparison between the QSC and VRD sound? Biggest similarities and differences? Preferences? I'd appreciate the info. I know you and several others really like the QSC units. They sure have a lot of power for the buck.

[DrWho]

I went hunting for the K2 distortion specs earlier today and couldn't

find anything 20Hz-20kHz. However, I know they had them posted in the

past so I wonder if some of the html pages got lost when they put the

amps into the discontinued category?

Anyways, if you were truly

interested I bet you could contact Crown for the spec if you feel it

will weigh in on your decision process. But if you're going that far, I

would try to shmooz them a bit and see if you couldn't get some of the

distortion plots instead. They also have a forum you might do a little research on as well.

And

if you can never find the plots, you can take my word (and probably the

others that have used them) that the distortion levels are going to be

orders of magnitude lower than the distortions imparted by your

speakers, and many other amplifiers for that matter.

I'd kinda like to try out some of these new PLX amps just to see if they live up to their hype.

[stormin]

I'd kinda like to try out some of these new PLX amps just to see if they live up to their hype.

Doc,

If the Crown K2 sounds better with more authority than my QSC SRA 2422 then it is one heck of an amp. This QSC isnt hype, its fact. I bet you have never moved those 15's in those Chorus II's like I have in mine[] We are talking a very smooth top end that never comes across as harsh at any volume and one heck of a tight bottom. This thing hits hard. Much more enjoyable and powerful than the Aragon. As far as the big adcom 565 monos, those things couldnt even keep up with the Aragon. I dont understand everything about gain and frequency response but I do know what I like and what sounds good. By the way I'll be on the floor for the Tool concert in Ft Wayne on June 23rd[Y]

[stormin]

I went hunting for the K2 distortion specs earlier today and couldn't find anything 20Hz-20kHz. However, I know they had them posted in the past so I wonder if some of the html pages got lost when they put the amps into the discontinued category?

Wow. Thanks for understanding what I was referring too.

[DrWho]

lol, no problem []

Btw, I've got access to a few killer pro amps in my spare time...[] It's amazing how the Chorus II's just keep wanting more power...I find they don't fully open up until you get over 100dB (A-weighted slow), but I don't even mix live shows that loud...and to think that they'll go even louder....130dB peaks? Oh yeah [Y]

[mas]

Well guys, I see that we seem to want to keep beating this thing up. And this just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser!

I would be really interested if someone could tell me exactly what they think that they are trying to accomplish by having this spec?

As
stated, 'distortion' data is indeed provided. But evidently it is not being provided in the preferred 'color' that is subjectively popular this spring. Perhaps we should have requested a particular style shrubbery...

To further add to the silliness here, this is akin to evaluating the relative performance of say, a Porsche GT3, and a Ford GT based upon the inflation pressure of their spare tires (assuming we stuck one in them!), one being a full size and the other being a downsized version.

[*-)]

The
problem is that most are not familiar with the various reporting methodologies.
It is one thing to demand something, it is quite another thing to understand
what is being reported and its significance. Thus far, very little understanding has been demonstrated regarding this spec that is so adamantly desired! And one wonders just what one thinks will be accomplished if and when they finally do understand it.

Below
is information adapted from the Rane audio database, Crown documentation, and from Crown tech support. The definitions have not been altered.

THD+N (total
harmonic distortion plus noise) The most common audio measurement. A single sine wave
frequency of know harmonic purity is passed through the unit under test, and
then patched back into the distortion measuring instrument. A measurement level
is set; the instrument notches out the frequency used for the test, and passes
the result through a set of band-limiting filters, adjusted for the bandwidth
of interest (usually 20-20 kHz). What remains is the noise (including any AC
line [mains] hum or interference buzzes, etc.) and all harmonics
generated by the unit. This composite signal is measured using a true RMS
detector voltmeter, and the results displayed. Often a resultant curve is
created by stepping through each frequency from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, at some
specified level (often +4 dBu), and bandwidth (usually 20 kHz; sometimes 80
kHz, which allows measurement of any 20 kHz early harmonics).

{Note that the often-seen statement that "THD+N is x%," is meaningless. For a THD+N spec to be
complete, it must state the frequency,
level, and measurement bandwidth.}*

While THD+N is the most common audio test measurement, it
is not the most useful indicator of a unit's performance. What it tells the user about hum, noise and
interference is useful; however that
information is better conveyed by the signal-to-noise
(S/N) ratio specification**.

What it tells the user
about harmonic distortion is not terribly relevant simply because it is harmonically related to the fundamental,
thus the distortion products tend to be masked by the complex audio material!
The various intermodulation (IM)
distortion tests are better indicators of sonic purity.

THD (total harmonic
distortion) A
measurement technique rarely used, but often confused with the THD+N technique
described above. Many people mistakenly refer to a "THD" measurement
when they really mean the "THD+N" technique.

{A true THD*** measurement
consists of a computation from a series of individual harmonic amplitude
measurements, rather than a single measurement. "THD" is the square
root of the sum of the squares of the individual harmonic amplitudes. The
answer must specify the highest order harmonic included in the computations;
for example, "THD through 8th harmonic.}

* When was the last time
you saw that displayed??

**Note:
This information is provided.

***Crown employs the true THD method for the K Series as this
is the worst-case scenario that expresses guaranteed minimum standards across
the frequency spectrum as well as across selectable input sensitivities,
voltages and frequencies. This is not
an ideal, best case, or typical measurement!

One wonders just what anyone would do with posted measurements of all of the permutations and combinations anyway! Especially as most fail to understand what to do with ONE measurement!

And per David Glass, he
cannot recall the highest order of harmonics, but the measurement included every harmonic through 20 kHz, up to the
filter which is thereupon employed.

This data is like a sign
on the Autobahn that says traffic must travel above a certain minimum
speed! It provides no information as to what is the maximum or average
speed traveled on the highway!

Also note, that it makes
no sense to compare this measurement to the much more common traditional THD+N
type measurement. And since they are stating worst case scenarios, you are not comparing typical operation figures nor figures that correlate!

Edit: Bottom line...I suspect that the real underlying issue here is some perceived attempt to justify one's purchase of one brand over the other. And you might want to check out the comment in the Powerlight3 thread regarding that notion. If that is your goal, have fun playing teenaged high school games. But when so many do not adequately understand the topologies or the specs, I think we should be focusing on more fundamental issues instead of stroking egos over brand loyalty where the real functional differences are often more emotional than real...

[Deang]

BTW, thanks for the well thought out and helpful email you sent me a while back. As an aside, Crown discontinued the 'K' Series -- have any idea why?

[mas]

Yup.

Crown was recently 'Harmonized' - like so many of the audio companies have in the industry.

While I don't necessarily agree with their decisions, the I-Tech is the next generation I class amp incorporating a few additional bells and whistles and is seen as a 'next generation actively cooled K series.

Last September they decided to discontinue production of a whole slew of models, including the K Series and several of the Macro techs etc.

Strangely enough, they failed to call me to ask my opinion. []

The fact is, the high end audio market is changing. And unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be growing ! In fact, convergence in technologies as well as company mergers and acquisition seems to be the rule of the day - and will continue for the foreseeable future.

As far as the K and the I-Tech. The I-Tech has an active fan system, meaning that it responds actively to the cooling demands, so normal home operation will most likely not cause it to run very hot, lessening the operation of the fan and any disruptive response. And for all intents and purposes, the amplifier stage should be relatively the same. So in that sense, I would not suspect a major issue.

How's that for a very atypical PC response???

Personally, I think the efficient and passively cooled K Series format had allot of potential for niche applications such as home theaters, etc.. But evidently the folks at Harmon wanted greater cost and operating efficiency at Crown - and the rest is history. The good news is that the ITech seems to be another robust design consistent with the traditional Crown orientation to design and build quality - albeit with the incorporation of a few more bells and whistles (and for me the incorporation of an active crossover with signal alignment is some nice functionality - Whether you really need the additional DSP functionality remains to be seem...)

There is also a little more to the story of why Crown, a family business, was sold, but that will have to wait for another day.

We can complain, but the fact is, much of the general trending in the industry reinforces this development...something that does not necessarily make me happy.

But look at EV, JBL and many of he heretofore dominant players... it is certainly not an exceptional event! Nor an encouraging one!

BTW, you might get a slight variation on this if you PM me! ;-)

[bhendrix]

Hey, Mark, do you have a recommendation on which of the Crown amps would work best with Jubilees and provide the crossover, delay, and EQ in the amp instead of a Dx38? I spoke with Kevin at Crown tech support and he suggested the XTi series because, according to him, the XTi series has similar architecture to the old DC-300. Thanks for your counsel.

Blessings,

Bill

[mas]

Well, they all share the DC-300 heritage, and that is the basic design that revolutionized pro sound...reliable, stable high output power in a lightweight package. Up until then, the closest you could get was the absurdly heavy Macintosh 2100 series (but I do have a soft spot for them, despite lugging them around!)...or many tried making the 400 wpc Flame, I mean, Phase Linears do something they were NOT designed for! (often with tragic results as their PS were NOT designed for such duty!) ...And they ran HOT out of the box simply for home use!

But those were the days of limited amplifier power. Most people here seem to forget that until the 1970's amplifier power was a very scarce commodity! especially amplifier power that could run difficult loads such as are typical in SR use. Much like computer memory, until then, the cost per watt was surprisingly high, if you could get it at all! In many ways, Crown opened that door. And like now, as the cost of computer memory has dropped and the density increase exponentially, so has amplifier 'power'.

50-60+ years ago, there was good reason for PWK to wish for a quality clean ~20 wpc amp! They were rare! But how soon we forget the context of history! In that day and age, amplifier power was to audio what memory was to computers just 10 years ago! Limited and expensive! (But I just love how so many quote PWK and assume that he was against the availability of greater amplifier power! Few instances reinforce the complete lack of understanding that a failure to appreciate the context of a statement can provide!)

Anyway...the ITech is in many ways the next generation K Series - based on the I class design. And this is consistent with what Crown will tell you. And whether you agree completely or not, it is what is currently available in production.

With the incorporation of the various DSP functions including active crossover and signal delay, the I-Techs offer allot of functionality in a one-piece offering at a substantial cost savings over the modular PIP (Programmable Input Processor cards) topology of the Macrotech Series.

So, bottom line, I would generally agree from a value point of view.

Attached you will find an interesting paper on the BCA amplifier design evolution.

BTW, both Crown Xti (ITech) or the QSC Powerlight series work very well. But the Crown does offer a few additional options for the money with these features tightly incorporated into the package. And you can certainly take advantage, and make good use of some of these integrated features, such as the active crossover and signal alignment in a very attractively priced unit.

But be aware, it may take just a bit of planning to match the exact topology of your system to that of the amp configuration, be it 2 way or 3 way with, or without, a sub. ;-)

BCA Amplifier.pdf

[bhendrix]

Thanks, Mark. Boy, I remember 35 years ago trying to do PA with the Phase Linear 400. We called them "Fails Linear" because when they went, they took out all the output transistors. We had to take a box full of transistors and soldering equipment if we went of the road with the PL400's. We had much better fortune with the DC-300's driving the LaScala's. I don't remember one ever failing.