Heresy center on it's side?

[sivadselim]

Lets start with a normal cornwall. It has a woofer on the bottom, then above it a mid-range horn and a tweeter horn arranged horizontally. You know wider than higher. The speaker would normally sit on the floor this way. Now, take the vertical cornwall, which, if, it were set up the same way with the woofer on the bottom, would have a mid-range horn and a tweeter horn mounted vertically. Higher than it is wide, as it sits. OK? Now, the whole reason why this is cool for the HT person, is that when you turn this vertical cornwall on it's side (because it is not as tall this way) that the mid-range horn and the tweeter horn are now back to their horizontal orientation just as if the normal cornwall speaker were standing there. Is this clear?

That's why it would be cool to be able to custom order a speaker this way to have a matching center.

Yes, I "get it". What's confusing ME is that I thought the "vertical Cornwall" WAS specifically designed to be used in such a way as to orient the horns horizontally, wider than it is tall, so to speak. So I don't consider this to be "turning it on its side". And even though the "letter" I posted here from 1960 indeed hints at this being the case, this apparently is still not necessarily the case, hence the speaker being called a "vertical Cornwall" in the first place.

(BTW, in your post, I think you incorrectly said that the "normal Cornwall" is "wider than higher". It's higher than it is wider, no? [] )

[oldtimer]

Right it's higher than wider, that's what makes the "vertical" desirable. If I don't post in the next 48 hours it's probably because I killed myself. Nobody really cares, right? You see, the horns are wider than higher, not the speaker. That's what I said, or at least thought what I said, oh what the hell.

[sivadselim]

Cornwalls are not square. The whole point of a vertical cornwall is that laying it on it's side gives it a lower profile and puts the horns back to horizontal. If you don't need to do this and a regular cornwall fits in your situation just fine then you don't need, or you may not even understand, why a vertical cornwall is desirable.

No, I understand. And "laying a vertical Cornwall on it's side", which thereby orients the once vertical horns horizontally, for use as a center obviously makes perfect sense, sonically, regardless of the lower profile.

What I'm saying that I don't understand is why someone would go to the effort to (incorrectly) orient a normal Cornwall on its side to simply to get a lower profile. No the speaker's not square, but it's not that much of lower of a profile. Same with a La Scala. Or even a Heresy, for that matter. I mean, come on, a (normal) Cornwall, La Scala, or even a Heresy above your TV looks kinda funny whether it's vertical OR horizontal. Might as well orient it vertically as it was intended to be used. []

[oldtimer]

Well keep laughing, in the right situation it sounds great, and it's a good thing i don't own a gun.(so i don't just kill myself right now) (Don't think I can't get one if you guys really piss me off (1300 miles)).

[sivadselim]

You see, the horns are wider than higher, not the speaker. That's what I said, or at least thought what I said, oh what the hell.

Ah, yes. I see what you meant. Really, I do. []

[theplummer]

Plummer,

Might I suggest using your Academy and changing the setting to Large Speaker. The Academey is by most standards a full range speaker. When you set a speaker to small, depending on the Pre/Pro or Receiver that you are using, you are setting your cut-off as high as 120HZ. Most manufacturers use a range of somewhere between 80 and 120 Hz for their small speaker setting. You are not even using your Current Academy to its potential which is 63HZ. Also unless you are using the Center for 5 Channel Stereo, you should not need much bass response below 63hz which is what the Academy is capable of as the Center Channel only produces Dialogue.

KAK

I've owned this Academy since it was new 1993. I'll agree its a VERY good speaker. I'll also agree it's to most a "Full Range" speaker. Trust me, I've tried it every way to sunday and the ACADEMY is NOT Suited to work with a Chorus, Cornwall, La Scalla, Belle, or Khorn. It cannot keep up. It does very well with Forte, Quartet, any Kg series, KLF series and such. I'll even go so far as to say that the Academy cannot keep up with my Heresy II's.

My Sunfire Theater Grand is selectable from 80HZ to 120HZ. I have mine set at 80Hz. That's the best it can do, but still no comparison to the Chorus's.

And, I might add Your Wrong about the center only producing dialogue. That was the old dolby surround processing technology. So, If your still using a processor from the early 90's I'd agree. But, today's DD and DTS, if your not using a Full Range speaker, your missing a tremendous amount of audible information.

[oldtimer]

OK, I'll work with you to a certain point. But to say the academy can keep up with a forte I or II but not a chorus I or II is on the face of it ridiculous. the upper end of both speakers is very much the same, and the forte actually specs out lower than the chorus. So why is the chorus line (haha) so different? As a center speaker and properly set up there is no reason to expect that it would work with a forte but not with a chorus.

[theplummer]

OK, I'll work with you to a certain point. But to say the academy can keep up with a forte I or II but not a chorus I or II is on the face of it ridiculous. the upper end of both speakers is very much the same, and the forte actually specs out lower than the chorus. So why is the chorus line (haha) so different? As a center speaker and properly set up there is no reason to expect that it would work with a forte but not with a chorus.

All I can say is, I own both. The Chorus, HeresyII, and Lascalla (that I have personally auditioned my Academy with) are a much more "Forward" sounding speaker. To say that the Forte specs out lower than the Chorus is like saying that An RB61 is a better speaker than the Khorn because it specs out better. Don't put a lot of stock in a +/-3DB spec. Believe me, the Chorus has MUCH more bottom end than the Forte ever thought of. It's just that the Chorus is not as "Flat" as the Forte. Just like a Khorn only specs out to about 17k. By that spec you should never hear a cymbal crash with the Khorn, (Now that's rediculous, isn't it[])

The more important spec to be looking at is DB efficiency. The Chorus is rated at 101DB and the Forte is 96DB (I think). The Academy matches that spec a lot closer than the Higher efficiency Heritage line. (Heresy, Chorus, Cornwall, Lascalla, Belle, Khorn).

Believe me, If I was happy with the Academy, I'd surely leave it alone. It's not like it hasn't set in the same spot since 1993. I honestly thought it was my old ADCOM pro-logic unit that was not doing its job. I've since found out that the Academy is the weakest link (when paired with Chorus, Heresy II, and Lascalla).

Don't believe me, Dr. Who heard my setup and made the same observation, totally unsolicited.

[oldtimer]

Who am I to argue with heuristic information? Sensitivity for the f II is 99db I think. It is less for the academy and it is possible that the extra sensitivity makes a difference. I was just curious. However, as an additional curiosity, by Klipsch's own measurements the Forte II and Forte go lower than the Chorus. If we were comparing numbers between two different manufacturers that's one thing, but the maker of both speakers say that +/- 3db the Forte goes lower. Yet you say the Chorus digs deeper? Must be your room. I would tend to believe factory specs between the two.

Disregarding the above, way back when you were looking for a particular model and I emailed you when I found what I thought you might be interested in close to you. Your response was not thanks I will look into this but "who the hell are you?" Class act all the way, I wish you the best.

[kkerley33]

Plummer, I have my fair share of "toys" and have auditioned a lot, but still prefer my DSP-A3090 to run HT. It has the 6 Channel Input Upgrade from MSB.

For 6 Channel or Even 8 Channel HT, the Center Channel, even in DTS, DD, DD-HD, or DTS-HD is primarily for Dialogue. I will agree that changes if you are listening to 5.1 Channel Audio but for HT, the primary role of Front Speaker is Dialogue while the focus of the L.R is to widen the soundfield. DD-HD is still a far cry from true theatre sound as they use as many as 13 channels. A typical set-up is 13 (and that includes the LFE) as they do not run a center speaker.

Now the fact that you are running a Sunfire, it is possible (as is with my Yammy) that Post Processing is done to the 5 Channels. I get a much different sound when my Yammy does the DD processing, than when my DV-s733a DVD player does the processing.

This can be attributed to two things...Post Processing by the Yamaha and or different DAC's. The DVD player uses 24/196 while the DSP-A3090 is using 20 bit DACs.

Regardless, we have given a plethora of Ideas outside of just adding an identicle front speaker across your soundstage.

It seems to me that you are wanting an identicle soundstage without being willing to put the identicle "third" speaker in the center. Your request is impossible for the type of speakers you are trying to match. You can't take a La Scala, put the components in a different box and expect it sound the same.

My final 2 recommendations are this. Build a replica of the top half of a La Scala, put the X-ver and mid/tweet drivers in it. Then find yourself a La Scala bass driver and build a seperate downfiring enclosure for it and set it next to the "center" you just built. You will be able to set in front of you television and should get close to the same range.

#2. Take a heresy, replace the drivers with La Scala drivers and move on.

There is no perfect solution to your situation outside of a Third La Scala or Horn.

[theplummer]

Who am I to argue with heuristic information? Sensitivity for the f II is 99db I think. It is less for the academy and it is possible that the extra sensitivity makes a difference. I was just curious. However, as an additional curiosity, by Klipsch's own measurements the Forte II and Forte go lower than the Chorus. If we were comparing numbers between two different manufacturers that's one thing, but the maker of both speakers say that +/- 3db the Forte goes lower. Yet you say the Chorus digs deeper? Must be your room. I would tend to believe factory specs between the two.

I'm not going to argue that the Forte specs. better than the chorus, it does. But, way back in the day, my owners manual that came with the Chorus's (it was a universal manual For Khorn, Belle, LaScalla, Chorus, and Heresy) (During this time, the Cornwall was not being manufactured), had a output graph, you could look at all the speakers and compare them side by side. This I feel is a much more reliable statistic. During this time, even Crutchfield would display the same graph for every speaker they sold also. Why isn't this information published anymore. Instead, all they're looking at is the +/-3DB stat. Not a very good stat. for the Heritage line, wouldn't you agree. The RF series specs out way better than the Heritage line, but why do we all love the Heritage over the RF?

Disregarding the above, way back when you were looking for a particular model and I emailed you when I found what I thought you might be interested in close to you. Your response was not thanks I will look into this but "who the hell are you?" Class act all the way, I wish you the best.

Regarding the above, I do not recall any such incident, though if I'm mistaken, I'm very sorry. I really don't post much, so it's not like I don't pay attention to my posts. I'll try to research this though and make amends if I indeed did offend.

[theplummer]

I will agree that changes if you are listening to 5.1 Channel Audio but for HT, the primary role of Front Speaker is Dialogue while the focus of the L.R is to widen the soundfield. A good example of my belief is Not only music DTS Like the Eagles, when Hell Freezes, but also Mr. and Mrs. Smith and The Incredibles. The sound from the center is extremely improved when any of the above speakers are used in place of the Academy. If given the time, I could probably name many more movies that back up my previous post. DD-HD is still a far cry from true theatre sound as they use as many as 13 channels. A typical set-up is 13 (and that includes the LFE) as they do not run a center speaker. Don't know anything about this, so I'll defer to you, and thanks this is good info.

Now the fact that you are running a Sunfire, it is possible (as is with my Yammy) that Post Processing is done to the 5 Channels. I get a much different sound when my Yammy does the DD processing, than when my DV-s733a DVD player does the processing.

This can be attributed to two things...Post Processing by the Yamaha and or different DAC's. The DVD player uses 24/196 while the DSP-A3090 is using 20 bit DACs. Again, I'm going to defer to you on this one. I will say that DTS and DD are a vast improvement over standard Pro-logic decoding, in my Sunfire.

Regardless, we have given a plethora of Ideas outside of just adding an identicle front speaker across your soundstage.

It seems to me that you are wanting an identicle soundstage without being willing to put the identicle "third" speaker in the center. I thought the conversion of a Chorus was going to be identical, just rotated 90 degrees so it would, not only fit MY HT, but many, many others, without having a television bottom 39" off the floor, as earlier recommended.Your request is impossible for the type of speakers you are trying to match. You can't take a La Scala, put the components in a different box and expect it sound the same.

My final 2 recommendations are this. Build a replica of the top half of a La Scala, I must have misled you here, I don't actually own Lascalla, even though I've had extensive In Home Auditioning with them, there a friend of mines. But, if you recall in one of my first posts, I was spouting about Klipsch actually producing a Heritage Center Channel. If I can find another Chorus or Chorus II that is worthy of being mutilated by my primitave woodworking ability, to experiment with my ideas, It'll happen. I believe the converted Cornwall or Chorus would be a definate improvement over a Heresy Center, both in size and usability. put the X-ver and mid/tweet drivers in it. Then find yourself a La Scala bass driver and build a seperate downfiring enclosure for it and set it next to the "center" you just built. You will be able to set in front of you television and should get close to the same range. Not a bad Idea[] , but I don't think Klipsch is going to manufacture this product for sale.

#2. Take a heresy, replace the drivers with La Scala drivers and move on. They won't fit.

There is no perfect solution to your situation outside of a Third La Scala or Horn.

[SilverSport]

Hey plummer...have you tried your Academy at 100hz???...I found it a bit more "muddy" sounding when I brought it down to 80hz but I must admit...I recently tried it again with my Quartets (set at 80hz) and it seemed alright...I do have popbumper's K-Stack in mine...but my Heresy center sounds better still...

Bill

[IndyKlipschFan]

Intersting that JBL likes to keep the mid horn vertical, while the tweeter horn remains horizontal?

I heard this at CEDIA... It is very impressive I will admit.

You can see more here... http://jbl.com/array_series/default.aspx?Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

As for this discussion, I also kept the 3 identical La Scala's up front and have a pic here. The center one is besdie the woofer doghouse tilted up slightly with foam. (The top end is directly in the middle of the screen, the woofer close by to the right.) I can't stress enough the importance of having the same speakers all up front and the "Timbre" trueness of the sound. This is so evident as something goes by left, center, to right, in your front speakers. I also realize not everyone can do this as well. Those with 3 Heresies, Cornwalls, Ls Scala's almost universally agree to this as well. (I have been on here several years I think were batting 100% here.. People that have tried it, like it.)

Anyhow here is a pic of my upfront speakers too to give you an idea how I did it as well.

[kkerley33]

Plummer,

I think the drivers will fit, I don't think the Horns will fit. The Horns and Drivers are actually 2 different things. Can someone please correct me here, but didn't the Heresy's and the La Scala's use the same drivers for a number of years?

Also, I apologize about the La Scala's. I had read La Scala somewhere and thought that is what you were trying to get at.

IndyKlipsch has almost done exactly what I recommended except he used Split La Scala's and just sat the base section to the side.

And this next part is for TREY. I think this discussion goes to show that there is indeed a large use of Heritage series speakers in HT. I think it is time that Klipsch came up with some marketable center channel options for its users outside of buying the third speaker or doing the Ultimate La Scala HT (IndyKlipschFan) as some people do not have the room, or the resources to buy 5 to 7 La Scala's, but want to keep the good 2 Channel Sound for Music and not degrade the HT experience enough.

Currently I run a seperate 2 Channel System with my La Scala's and would build an Matching Half Center if I were to put it into HT use, but I use Paradigm Studio Series for HT because I can match them all the way around the room. Give me and many other users a vialbe alternative and I bet that the HT only set-ups would be hitting the Bay and the "Gon faster than IndyKlipschFan could get the popcorn ready.

KAK

[johnyholiday]

They all forgot at PWK headquarters or did they?....the Model T

[Frzninvt]

I have a NAD T163 AV Pre/Pro and it has great provisions for 2-channel listening bypassing all the DSP's so I can run the main Klipschorn's in stereo. If you think La Scala's are something you should hear four Klipschorn's a La Scala center channel, and Cornwall's for rear effects/centers all with upgraded/improved networks and the premium K-55V's with dual phase plus/solder terminals reinforced with a pair of Velodyne HGS-15's.

Realism and impact are incredible, more speed and accuracy than any theater that I have been to short of an IMAX.

I still had very nice performance back when the La Scala was on it's side. (see photo) It has since been replaced with a 42" Plasma and the La Scala is upright.

[theplummer]

Hey plummer...have you tried your Academy at 100hz???...I found it a bit more "muddy" sounding when I brought it down to 80hz but I must admit...I recently tried it again with my Quartets (set at 80hz) and it seemed alright...I do have popbumper's K-Stack in mine...but my Heresy center sounds better still...

Bill

Bill, yes I've tried every setting, I don't know about you, but If I cross it too high, I can start to tell that the sound is coming from the extreme left (which happens to be where the Sub is).

Indyklipschfan is doing everything right as far as I could tell, except I want to know where he got those High dollar acoustic milk crates. I have the standard variety, but have never seen the high performance ones. []

[IndyKlipschFan]

I want to know where he got those High dollar acoustic milk crates.

It is a secret.... shhhhhhh

[SilverSport]

hmmmm...exactly how mine was set up...I do have to admit that three Heresys up front make the transitions (all set at 80hz) seemless.

Bill