Problem With Klipschorns and SET Amp Could Use Some Help

[seti]

OldTubeSound,

Here are some links if you are interested in building backs on your Klipschorns. Paul Klipsch actually used false corners in his home and it is discussed in the Dope From Hope download link click here in pdf format. http://soundwise.org/dope4you/THE%20PAPER.pdf

Good pics on page. this thread and like alot of threads spirits ran high and the thread was locked.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/83016.aspx?PageIndex=8

Great pics on this one as well.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/96656/977678.aspx#977678

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/75873/748684.aspx#748684

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/77212/763103.aspx#763103

Good luck and great amp!

[NOSValves]

6W or 600W into a Klipschorn? Let your ears decide just how much distortion you want to tolerate. Forget about the distortion in the amp, we are talking about driver distortions in the range of 100% and more when the coil starts leaving the gap! A Crowning achievement for some, a real ear ache for most.

Where are the hard numbers???

Has anyone ever seen the Max distortion numbers of a Klipschorn at its max SLP rating of 121db?

[NOSValves]

I'd wonder more in this case if the output tranformer used is reflecting the proper impedance to the the output tube. While I have yet to meet a SET amp I prefer the description in this case was what made me wonder about the amp in questions over all design. You can't throw an output transformer designed for tube X on the amp using tube Y and expect stellar results.

Craig

[mas]

"Anyone has the right to choose the system placement approach that
sounds the best to the person in question, and in the environment that
belongs to the the same. People completely reassemble the top sections
of their speakers (entirely different drivers, horns,
crossovers-both-active-and passive) without regard to what PWK
originally intended, and those elements of the overall design provide
the majority of what is heard during playback. Is this fact a sign of
disrespect or an element of personal choice, option, preference?

Erik"

"I infer you have no idea what a horn loaded woofer design entails to perform correctly."

Sure, they can do anything they want!

But such choices DO have ramifications in the real world!

And when one substantially modifies the design of a horn, and since the wave guide is a fundamental aspect of the LF response of a LF horn, to effectively remove this does have a pronounced impact upon both the fundamental design (regardless of who the heck designed it, be it PWK or PeeWee Herman...) that is fundamental to how horns work, and to their performance.

And if such a substantial modification is made, either by choice or misunderstanding, to blame an amplifier, crossover, cap, wife, dog, or the astrological alignment of the planets is absurd. And it takes more than just back loading of a woofer and a constrained throat to make a horn perform correctly. There is this aspect commonly referred to as a waveguide...

And when one does make the choice to modify factors that are fundamental to the design and subsequently to the performance of the horn,sufficient to render it severely crippled as a horn, it does not follow that one should expect it to perform optimally, as it is in the case in point.

The critical point here is that the problem is not at step 27, 34, or 72. The problem is at step 1. The basic assumption is flawed.

My suggestion would be to begin with basics and to set the speakers in the corner, either by proper placement or by constructing false corners (and recognizing the potential loss of boundary sensitivity gains due to placement), and to begin there. A corresponding swiveling the MF/HF horns for on axis response is another option that many have successfully employed.

For someone to not appreciate or to be fully aware of this aspect is fine. But once identified, it is negligence to fail to address the fundamental problem.

But I am still ROFLMAO that so many are still pursuing steps that reflect a completely obtuse understanding of step 1.

And failing that, I wonder why 6 watts may not drive a rear firing acoustic suspension speaker to room shaking levels characteristic with a well designed horn!

Gee, I wonder why!? It must be the caps or the crossover... And to think that thus far no one has suggested a causal link to which finish was employed on the speaker, water or oil based? LOL!!!!

And if you do want to pursue this topology, I think you are going to need a slightly more substantial amplifier than a SET!

Beyond this, I am too busy ROFLMAO at this thread.

... and especially at those who seem to think, ok, feel, as thinking has little to do with this, that the only use of a higher power amp is to listen at "ear splitting levels" and to "knock things off walls". LOL

[seti]

Gee, I wonder why!? It must be the caps or the crossover... And to think that thus far no one has suggested a causal link to which finish was employed on the speaker, water or oil based? LOL!!!!

I personally find lacquer to have a bit more bright and slick sounding. It is much better than the oil based as sometimes they dry out and become dull sounding. After all the sound is eventually bouncing off the speakers as well.

I'd like to see some examples of swiveling top sections on khorns as this would really help my room. I thought about trying to way but it seems to be a big pita to get there.

[NOSValves]

I would imagine the makers of drivers have the numbers, don't you? What I have is the fundamental understanding of the pysical conflict existing between efficiency, power and distortion. Although plain old listening reveals the problem, I have seen with my own eyes driver distortion measured directly with instruments by Mr. Roy Cizek. It was shocking to see the knee in the distortion curve when a certain power threshold was breached. It occured well below the power that the half dozen witnesses "predicted" in advance. And, well below the manufacturers specification for "maximum power handling."

Numbers aside (in a perfect world we'd always have all the numbers we wanted, wouldn't we?), the 'driver distortion v. power curve' is apparent to many listeners with no need of a graph or meter in front of them. If, on the other hand it doesn't bother someone, they ought to go on their merry way with their kilowatt amps rumbling the floor and knocking pictures off the wall as one might do with an ordinary jackhammer in the living room.

While I'm sure measuring distortion output of a driver alone could be eye opening in that context. I would find it much more interesting to have these numbers from an operating 3 way design as listened to in a complete speaker. I just inquired with a klipsch employee for these numbers and was told currently the network access is down for this information hopefully I will get them later. The reason I'm curious is I bet the level of input that these Mid and HF drivers reach these high levels of distortion measured in a stand alone state is much different when presenting the same power levels to a working 3 way design like Klipsch Heritage. So IMHO the testing them stand alone is not really valid. Just because someone sits and listens and can hear distortion doesn't mean they can accurately pick what part of the system is producing the distortion.

Craig

[DrWho]

6W or 600W into a Klipschorn? Let your ears decide just how much distortion you want to tolerate. Forget about the distortion in the amp, we are talking about driver distortions in the range of 100% and more when the coil starts leaving the gap! A Crowning achievement for some, a real ear ache for most.

Perhaps you would like to read some of the articles put out by Klippel:
http://www.klippel.de/pubs/papers.asp
There's all sorts of really cool information describing the nonlinearities (and audible effects) of drivers being pushed to their limit. The only thing it doesn't cover is the horn throat distortion when you overload the horn (which would be a big deal when pumping 600W into a khorn).

Nevertheless, you misconstrued my point (intentionally?). I absolutely agree that the khorns sound like crap when you push 600W into them. The point is that even very effiicient speakers are unable to reproduce transients completely - even at very sane listening levels. So yes, the distortions are swamped by the drivers themselves, but clipping an amp when the driver is distorting makes the "driver distortions" exponentially worse. It becomes an even bigger problem when you've got components inbetween the amplifier and the driver (like passive crossovers for example). Though if your amp isn't powerful enough to drive the woofers into their non-linear behavior, then all you're hearing is the "100% and more" distortions coming from the amplifier.

And to answer the next question, yes it is readily audible. Anyone is invited to swing by my lab on campus where I'm already set up to measure clipping and listen to the results (we always listen first just to make sure we're not tricking ourselves).

By all means, don't let the facts get in the way.

[DrWho]

Btw, where the heck did this picture come from:

Since when will a driver produce more SPL than is ideal for a given voltage?!? []

I don't disagree with the trend, but that blue line should always be under the red line - never above.

[DrWho]

you're the expert here, but I'm a little confused. I sit back almost 5M (15 ft) from my KHorns, using a 8 watt SET, and have measured 90db with my sound meter. Yes, it's not earth shaking, but it's a "full" sound.(as you describe) The preamp is at the 12:00 position, so I don't think I've peaked my SETs. The 90dbs are the average, I peak in the 100s. Isn't this the norm, or am I missing something? Thanx

15 ft is 4.5 meters, but lets make life easy and call it 4m and 10W.

The sound is going to decay 12dB from the speakers in your situation. Two speakers playing exactly the same sound and each receiving a full 10W and arriving perfectly in phase is going to boost the sound by 6dB. Most recordings are stereo so lets call it 3dB since not everything is completely in both speakers. 10W is 10dB louder than the Khorns rating of 104dB, so when you add it all together the absolute peak output at your listening position should be 104 - 12 + 3 + 10, which is an absolute peak of 105dB when operating within the 10W of your amplifier.

The only way you'll not exceed the power of your amplifier when measuring an average of 90dB is if your source material doesn't have more than 15dB of transients. If your entire music collection falls within this window, then you have nothing to worry about. If you increase either the dynamic range or the average listening level, then you must either reduce the average by that amount or increase the power output of the amp by that amount. A 10dB increase in dynamic range therefore requires either 100W or that you listen at 80dB with your 10W.

The only reason I brought this up in the first place was because most people speak in terms of the "average" output level when they describe how loud they listen to music. The demands of the amp are therefore higher than when people quote the sensitivity of the speaker...

One other thing....you can achieve full output from the amp without the volume controls being up all the way. A volume knob just attenuates a voltage, but if you can output more voltage than is required to bring the amp to full output, then you will need to avoid turning the knob up all the way.

[NOSValves]

Well, a driver alone or a driver behind a crossover, doesn't change the concept of linearity of the driver. For example, let's say you have a 3-way system and drive it with 100W average power. Let's say on some piece of music you get a power distribution of 50% woofer; 35% midrange and 15% tweeter. You can equate that to 50W going to the woofer, 35W to the midrange and 15W going to the tweeter. That 15W to the tweeter is no different fundamentally than taking the tweeter out and giving it 15W on its own. The crossover isn't doing anything but distributing power based on frequency. So, a few tweeters like Beyma give a distortion spec based on 1W of input power. At 1W a good measure is something around 1% distortion. Notice you are already above the amplifier's inherant distortion, and you are just at ONE WATT. Push that tweeter now to 15W and the distortion will begin to really climb fast. Now, forget the 100W example, because we have people suggested 600W and more, and that was actually the basis of my comment. Using just a 10% distribution to the tweeter, what will happen when that tweeter sees 10% of 600W? But, forget all that, because no matter what the distortion is, when you pump 600W into your speaker, think of what you are doing to the dynamic range! It may be counterintuitive but the more power you pour in, the LOWER your dynamic range becomes. This is precisely why listening at high levels sounds worse and worse as you go up the scale.

I do hope you get the power vs. distortion specs. I am sure it will be interesting. And, I bet that Klipsch speakers do very, very well in this department, but concept still holds - more power creates higher distortion. If this were not true, Beyma and others would show their distortion curves at max power, just like amplifier makers do.

(edit: oops, I think I have an error in my drawing..}

Well who the heck is suggesting 600W for the speakers were discussing here? Yup that is insane.

Yea I'm still working on the getting the numbers from Klipsch. Looks like it will have to be after the Holiday.

Oh and I suspect the percentages are much lower for the Mid and Tweet.

Craig

[mas]

"You frankly suggest he needs a 600W amp if he "doesn't want to clip
transients." Certainly by now you must be aware of what happens when
you put 600W into a Klipschorn? Maybe not." mdeneen

The fact that anyone has interpreted Doc to say that anyone must apply 600W to a KHorn demonstrates the absurd depths to which this thread has descended.

Learn to read for meaning. and get a clue.

[PrestonTom]

RE: the distortion for the KHorn

Although not exactly what you were asking for, this might be useful. Have a look at the JAES article by Delgado & Klipsh (2000). This was posted by Gil a couple of years back. This is the Jubilee (bass bin) article. Since they use the KHorn as the referent, there are many plots provided. In Figs 10 & 11, the 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion is plotted as a function of frequency. However, the level is fixed and is below the max rated output by a fixed amount. They use a 13 V signal. I believe this particular value is chosen because of a measurement standard (perhaps THX) where the level is a certain percentage of the max power handling (I assume continuous). With such an efficient design, the 13 V ends up being a huge signal, to say the least. These figures only address the bass bin. Keep in mind that the woofer(s) are the least efficient of all the drivers.

Of course this has nothing to do with the original aspect of this thread.

-Tom

[seti]

Of course this has nothing to do with the original aspect of this thread.

-Tom

Yeah I hope OldTubeSound gets his problems resolved and sticks around. Very interesting thread.

[Arky]

I love these threads, not for the childish antics but when you tech guys come to a consensus, I learn.

[Guest " "]

Acording to the "Making of a Legend in Sound" brochure.

1. The Belle Klipsch, which has the same type drivers as the Khorn, will reach 2% distortion at 109db and a failure threashold at 165watts input which would result in 4% modulated distortion.

2. In another section, it indicates 1 watt would drive to 104db and 8 watts would drive to 115db

3. In another section, sound pressures above approx 127db are ilusstrated as being beyond the range of human hearing. It all turns to mush.

[Erik Mandaville]

Re: Obvious answers to questions concerning corner placment of the Klipchorn.

For those who asked whether I understood the concept behind the above technique, please refer to one of my earlier responses to the author of this thread. I mentioned that the best results are usually obtained by adhering to the intended design.

However, that notwithstanding, the point is simple enough to be ludicrous. Regardless of who intended what, any design is subject to the personal preferences, tastes, and subsequent decisions of the user. I KNOW the Klipschorn was designed to fit snugly in a corner for proper loading -- that's why mine are in the corners. My Lowther rear-loaded horns were also designed to have all internal voids not associated with the fold of the horn filled with sand. I was told this personally by the designer, herself. I thus followed the designers instructions, and proceeded the hours of work required to fill large internal spaces within the cabinet with dry play sand from Home Depot. The resulting sound was not only bad, I couldn't listen to it. We tried it for days, and simply could not become reconciled to it. So, I spent considerably more time removing it with a 'specially modified nozzle/hose contraption I made for our shop vac.

The point is simple enough to be ludicrous: PWK had certain things in mind, and the majority of heritage owners, particularly owners of Klipschorns, faithfully place the speakers in corners. Fine and good. However (again), if someone tries corner loading and simply prefers the cabinets pulled out and away, than it's that person's prerogative to pull the speakers out. My cabinets were DESIGNED to be filled with sand, which is why the kit came with plugs for the holes in the back panel. The designer preferred the sand-loading, I (and others) hated it.

End question: If the intended approach doesn't sound as good to the owner/user as a modification of that approach (whether it be different crossovers, bi or tri amping, different capacitors (enormous yawn), or SETs or VRDs), what a sad waste it would be for that person to maintain such fidelity to a design for that sake alone. Completely self-defeating, in my opinion.

Erik

edit: Regarding Lowther cab sand loading: I indicated 'others' not liking it. That's not fair to those who prefer it and strongly recommend the practice. For me it absolutely killed the sound.

[NOSValves]

Yea I'm still working on the getting the numbers from Klipsch. Looks like it will have to be after the Holidays.

------Cool. I'd love to know what they actually are, especially at the higher powers often mentioned around here - like 100W or more. Post something when you get them. I'd love to be wrong on this.

Oh I suspect the distortion when someone pumps a 100 watts into any of the heritage line would be very high! No arguement from me on that one. I just hope they don't do it with me in the room [] But by the same token someone with to little power can drive me out of the room just as easily and at a much lower SLP.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Aw, can't we all just get along?

Craig - Have a nice Turkey Day!

Dr. Who - Relax, I was pulling your chain a bit about the 600W.

Mas - Don't get so riled up over nothing.

gobble, gobble.

Is someone fighting?

Mark,

I can already taste the Turkey my wife does a wonderful job with those birds! You have a nice Turkey Day also.

Craig

[mas]

Erik, I think you have in part missed the point.



You keep saying that anyone should be allowed to do so if they like it....OK...


And within societal limits, yes, I whole heartedly agree that anyone can (and should be able) to do whatever they want. I don't think anyone has a beef with that.



But herein lies the problem.




You CAN change configurations. But when you do, the performance characteristics may very well change as well! And that 'comes with' the deal!
Change it all you like...just don't be surprised or complain if the changes result in performance characteristics that differ from the original topology.




Here we have exactly such a scenario and a classic example of such a change where we are still expecting the sensitivity of the original LF horn.




This is a classic case of logical 'category error'. And unfortunately you cannot simply alter critical variabilities and expect the results to remain the same.



Have a nice holiday all.

[Erik Mandaville]

Mas:

I understand everything you have indicated, including this last response above. We are nevertheless bound, if you will (you might not! , by the fact that the generally approved and preferred corner placement seemed to produce a result that was inferior to how the speakers sounded away from the corners (how far away they actually were, I can't remember now).

This is not so unlike what I was saying about the idea that a 6 watt amplifier should in theory not have a problem providing 'clean' (for all intents and purposes -- which may differ from one person to another) power to a system that's capable of 104-5 dBs with a 1 watt input.

Additionally, I used our K-horns in a fairly similar situation here: along the shorter, approx. 16ft wall, but had to pull and angle them out several inches from flush with the back wall on both sides in order to point them toward the listening position. They actually worked pretty well, but surely not so well in terms of low-end response (when program material called for it) as where they are right now -- very snug in the corners of the 20-21ft wall. There they are staying.

I can and do appreciate the point you are trying to make, though. Your writing style has always been lucid to me. I'm hoping this situation will find itself in a comfortable compromise.

Erik