Problem With Klipschorns and SET Amp Could Use Some Help

[Erik Mandaville]

I also have two Klipsch inductors sitting around doing nothing, and you'd need those for woofer. I can send those along with the autoformers if you like, and you just need a couple of caps and you're done (for the type 'A').

Erik

[Old-Tube-Sound]

OK OK..You guys win, I will put them back in the corners and we'll see what happens. And yes I'm stuck on the amp thing, if speakers are rated at 104db SPL with 1 watt at 1 meter then a 6 watt amp should not be laboring to drive it at higher volumes IMHO. I'll let you all know how the speaks in the corners work out.

[Erik Mandaville]

"if speakers are rated at 104db SPL with 1 watt at 1 meter then a 6 watt amp should not be laboring to drive it at higher volumes IMHO."

Sure, that would seem logical. I've built many single-ended amplifiers, and love the way they sound for the majority of music we listen to. However, I am comfortable admitting that they can also have limitations (in my experience), and often in the area where you said you're having a problem. I've used 45s, 2A3s, and 300Bs, and while they are outstanding in terms of midrange, HF 'air', and so forth, I (IMO) don't think they are able to provide the amount of bass control and 'tight' response of a more powerful amplifier. I use mine, because the trade off is acceptable to me, and because the majority of music we listen to is not so heavily bass oriented.

I see an 8B in your equipment profile. Do you have the same low-end response problem?

[mikebse2a3]

Hey old-tube-sound

First keep having fun and try to ignore some of the attitude some of the post have exhibited.

I would venture to say most people on this forum have compromised systems even if their Khorns are tucked tightly into their corners yet very little to no proper attention to room acoustics can or has been given yet they will somehow find a way to enjoy their system I hope. Very few (except MAS[]) will be as fast to jump on the (largest problem by far in pratically all situations) lack of proper acoustical room treatments and many will just as quickly jump on swapping crossovers and electronics to solve their problems and so the circle continues.

As I posted before the ALK network will demand more power from your amplifier than the A or AA and based on your system choices and listening preferences probably isn't the best choice for you.

So you have tried the Khorns in and out of the corner and I believe you are sensible enough to know what you are gaining and loosing in your particular situation. I have heard Khorns in compromised situations and yes the truth is you will not get the best that they are capable of but sometimes they can still perform surprisingly well. I also believe if I was in your position and wanted to make the best of it then I would probably try to simulate the 60th Anniversary Khorn's design so that you can make the best of your situation by toeing them out while maintaining the proper horn loading if that is an option for you.

Good Luck!

mike tn

[Erik Mandaville]

This is an interesting thread.....

[Marvel]

This is an interesting thread.....

It's keeping me in stitches...

One of the reasons I built my DHA2 crossovers was their ability to work well with my 2A3 amps.

[edwinr]

Is it any wonder few people like posting here anymore?

Yes. And others aren't allowed to post at all...

[Old-Tube-Sound]

Thanks Mike....To tell you the truth I'm not a thin-skinned person and I started this thread to get opinions good or bad about my problem with a low power amp and the finest speakers in the world and I really appreicate them all, but I think Erik hit the nail on the head I really can't expect a low powered SET amp to have enough stuff to drive those big 15" woof's efficiently, My 8b on the other hand has no problems driving the horns but it has its limitations too and even though the 8b is an outstanding amp it does not have no where near the sweet sound of the 75TL SET amp. I put the horns tight in the corners for those who insisted I do and that program got two thumbs down, the wall is simply to short and it screws up the sound stage big time and the focus is way off. Like I said I appreciate EVERYONES input, Its forums like this and fellow audiophiles like all of you who have opinions and experences to help others that make this hobby fun. I would like to wish all of you a happy Thanksigving and a blessed upcomming holiday season. Thanks for your help guys.

Dave

[edwinr]

...I've built many single-ended amplifiers, and love the way they sound for the majority of music we listen to. However, I am comfortable admitting that they can also have limitations (in my experience)... I (IMO) don't think they are able to provide the amount of bass control and 'tight' response of a more powerful amplifier. I

I believe PWK had certain thoughts on the minimum amount of power required...

[Deang]

Dave, I had the same problem (small room/ short wall) -- so I went ahead and built false corners so I could pull them out and turn them into the listening area -- well worth the trouble.

Mike, I don't agree with you about the ALKs. Bob and myself used to go around on that issue quite a bit -- I agree that the swamping resistor soaks up some power, but I'm pretty sure it isn't near as much as some think. If you tap them out at 4 and 0 like the Klipsch networks, the midrange level is right in there with the Type A and AA. I've done the comparison between a Type A and ALK many times, and if there's a difference, it isn't much. He's also using an amp that should benefit from the benign load presented by the ALK.

[seti]

OK OK..You guys win, I will put them back in the corners and we'll see what happens. And yes I'm stuck on the amp thing, if speakers are rated at 104db SPL with 1 watt at 1 meter then a 6 watt amp should not be laboring to drive it at higher volumes IMHO. I'll let you all know how the speaks in the corners work out.

I understand why you would want to pull them out but you get much better performance with them in the corners. I want to mod the top part of my khorns so the mid and high horns can be angled to put the sweet spot where I want it. The best system I have had yet were Belle's A crossovers, George Wright high gain preamp, and canary audio 300b set amps which I really miss. SET done right is a wonderful thing and if your amps sound as nearly as good as they look then I am really jealous. Let us know what you decide to do and how things work out for you.....

[Coytee]

if speakers are rated at 104db SPL with 1 watt at 1 meter then a 6 watt amp should not be laboring to drive it at higher volumes

Wimp...

[]

[Coytee]

Very few (except MAS)

Troublemaker!

(hmm...do I mean you or MAS?)

[:|][6]

[mas]

...I will put them back in the corners and we'll see what happens. And yes I'm stuck on the amp thing, if speakers are rated at 104db SPL with 1 watt at 1 meter then a 6 watt amp should not be laboring to drive it at higher volumes IMHO. I'll let you all know how the speaks in the corners work out.

You still seem to fail to understand the significance of what you say you will reluctantly do!

104dB at 1 watt is an efficiency rating for a fully horn loaded speaker!

What you have is NOT a fully loaded horn speaker. In fact, you have essentially a rear firing constrained acoustic suspension LF direct-reflecting system. (And even Bose reflex loaded theirs! [] )

You have successfully transformed an highly efficient system wherein the specs you quote have meaning, into the lowest efficiency LF loading by virtue of their placement!!!! And yet you persist in thinking the LF will perform as if it were an efficient horn! The concepts couldn't be more diametrically opposed!

By putting the KHorn back into the corner you 'complete' the system and provide the fundamental horn loading for the LF system! This isn't a matter of convenience or preference, it is a fundamental aspect of the design!

If you don't like that idea, the least you can do to maintain the integrity of the design is to install 'false corners' which would enclose the back planes of the horn waveguide.

So this isn't an option or a preference. It is fundamental. And to miss this point is to waste allot of time, effort and money on many expensive alternatives, NONE of which will have the effect that simply acknowledging the fundamental design will provide! And to debate these other aspects without addressing the fundamental design of the speaker is to totally miss the point. And whether yapping poodles or anyone else disagrees, amp and crossover mods that so many are so quick to suggest will not address the fundamental problem.

So, if you will kindly either respect the design of the speaker, (either that or quit expecting it to perform as an efficient LF horn and instead accept that it is a very inefficient rear firing acoustic suspension speaker), many of the rest of the folks here will be able to go back to their knee jerk recommendations of replacing passive crossovers, caps, and all manner of minor components that render improvements far down the line of the possible optimization options (at which my initial jest was aimed.. The second jest was directed at the persistence to chase the component mods despite the identification of the fundamental problem.)

[]

This still ranks as the funniest thread I have read on the entire forum. Now, if we can just agree on the proper color for the new caps...

[DrWho]

And yes I'm stuck on the amp thing,
if speakers are rated at 104db SPL with 1 watt at 1 meter then a 6
watt amp should not be laboring to drive it at higher volumes
IMHO.

One thing you're missing is the difference between
average volume and transient peaks. A 102dB (1watt/1meter) speaker
measures about 75dB with music when the oscilliscope indicates peak
output of 1W. That would correlate to about 27dB of transients in the
music. So even assuming 104dB speakers, 6W is only going to yield you
about 80dB for unclipped music as measured by an SPL meter. 80dB at 1
meter really isn't that loud - especially if you're sitting a few
meters away (the sound drops about 6dB for every doubling of
distance). So lets say you're sitting 4 meters away, now you're
talking about 70dB at the listening position when you've got the amp
cranked to its max. 70dB is a little bit louder than a normal talking
volume.

I would argue that you don't get a "full sound" until
about 90dB or so....which means you need 20dB more amp in this example,
or basically 600W if you don't want to clip the transients. If your
music isn't as dynamic (say only 15dB of transients), then you can
probably get away with 100W.

Bringing
this back to reality, I think
what a lot of people associate with the sound of low powered amps is simply
the sound of compression. Different topologies are going to
clip/compress the sound in different manners so its no surprise people
get so attached to a particular topology. Compression tends to make
things sound warm, rich, and full....but then it tends to have the
opposite effect on good recordings where those attributes were already
taken care of in the studio.

If you like the sound of your amps then that's all that matters, but it doesn't change what is happening inside the amp...

[steve]

Mike

you're the expert here, but I'm a little confused. I sit back almost 5M (15 ft) from my KHorns, using a 8 watt SET, and have measured 90db with my sound meter. Yes, it's not earth shaking, but it's a "full" sound.(as you describe) The preamp is at the 12:00 position, so I don't think I've peaked my SETs. The 90dbs are the average, I peak in the 100s. Isn't this the norm, or am I missing something? Thanx

Steve

[Erik Mandaville]

Mas:

"So this isn't an option or a preference. It is fundamental. And to miss this point is to waste allot of time, effort and money on many expensive alternatives, NONE of which will have the effect that simply acknowledging the fundamental design will provide! And to debate these other aspects without addressing the fundamental design of the speaker is to totally miss the point. And whether yapping poodles or anyone else disagrees, amp and crossover mods that so many are so quick to suggest will not address the fundamental problem.

Anyone has the right to choose the system placement approach that sounds the best to the person in question, and in the environment that belongs to the the same. People completely reassemble the top sections of their speakers (entirely different drivers, horns, crossovers-both-active-and passive) without regard to what PWK originally intended, and those elements of the overall design provide the majority of what is heard during playback. Is this fact a sign of disrespect or an element of personal choice, option, preference?

Erik

[Coytee]

Eric, I'm not trying to be obtuse since you are 100% right however...

Isn't that somewhat similar to two teenagers, one modifying his car with a big wing on the back, a big tin can muffler contrasted with the other teenager who thought his car looked better with the wheels totally removed and the car sitting on blocks (clearly unintended by the designer) and was not satisfied with how fast it would run the 1/4 mile?

Somewhere along the line, the 2nd person needs a "Oh, I could have had a V-8 !!!" moment.

[]

[Audio Flynn]

Mas:

"So this isn't an option or a preference. It is fundamental. And to miss this point is to waste allot of time, effort and money on many expensive alternatives, NONE of which will have the effect that simply acknowledging the fundamental design will provide! And to debate these other aspects without addressing the fundamental design of the speaker is to totally miss the point. And whether yapping poodles or anyone else disagrees, amp and crossover mods that so many are so quick to suggest will not address the fundamental problem.

Anyone has the right to choose the system placement approach that sounds the best to the person in question, and in the environment that belongs to the the same. People completely reassemble the top sections of their speakers (entirely different drivers, horns, crossovers-both-active-and passive) without regard to what PWK originally intended, and those elements of the overall design provide the majority of what is heard during playback. Is this fact a sign of disrespect or an element of personal choice, option, preference?

Erik

I infer you have no idea what a horn loaded woofer design entails to perform correctly.

[Guest " "]

""One thing you're missing is the difference between
average volume and

One thing you're missing is the difference between
average volume and transient peaks. A 102dB (1watt/1meter) speaker
measures about 75dB with music when the oscilliscope indicates peak
output of 1W. That would correlate to about 27dB of transients in the
music. So even assuming 104dB speakers, 6W is only going to yield you
about 80dB for unclipped music as measured by an SPL meter. 80dB at 1
meter really isn't that loud - especially if you're sitting a few
meters away (the sound drops about 6dB for every doubling of
distance). So lets say you're sitting 4 meters away, now you're
talking about 70dB at the listening position when you've got the amp
cranked to its max. 70dB is a little bit louder than a normal talking
volume.

I would argue that you don't get a "full sound" until
about 90dB or so....which means you need 20dB more amp in this example,
or basically 600W if you don't want to clip the transients. If your
music isn't as dynamic (say only 15dB of transients), then you can
probably get away with 100W.

Bringing
this back to reality, I think
what a lot of people associate with the sound of low powered amps is simply
the sound of compression. Different topologies are going to
clip/compress the sound in different manners so its no surprise people
get so attached to a particular topology. Compression tends to make
things sound warm, rich, and full....but then it tends to have the
opposite effect on good recordings where those attributes were already
taken care of in the studio.

If you like the sound of your amps then that's all that matters, but it doesn't change what is happening inside the amp...""

Unfortunately, amps are not rated in transient peak power, nor are speakers. I don't know what the transient peak power rating of my amps are, but I think it is reasonalble to assume the continuous power rating and the transient peak power rating are not the same.