Groomlakearea51 Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 I have read (and re-read, several times) with great interest the "mini LaScala" thread. A really outstanding job by Gothover, BTW. I have some extra Heresy drivers, spare E and E2 crossovers, etc. spare mahogany veneer, and some very nice furniture grade birch plywood that is calling out desperately to the table saw.... My wife really loved the pictures of the mini-Scala (so did I !!!), but the space we have, unfortunately, is not quite tall enough (even with removing the 3/4" "collar"). I can go wider, say up to 30", but the height is limited to 24" and the depth is limited to not more than about 22". Before I even consider "cutting wood", etc. I am very interested about other experiments that Forum members have done using the K-22/K24 woofer (and the Heresy K55/700 (or K53/701) & the K-77 (or CT125) tweeter). Some specific questions/ interests: What is the optimal (perfect?) sealed enclosure size for the K-22/24? I've read somewhere that it should be 4.5 cu ft (?). Is that so? Does that enclosure need to be "square", or can it be rectangular? (Assume that the mid range and tweeter are isolated and not in that enclosure) Has anyone made a "vented" or ported enclosure (bass reflex) for the K-22/K24 where the bass response was satisfactory (or at least similar to the sealed H-I/II)? I've look at the KPT-250 design, but there is less bass and it's really a cinema/PA speaker. If so, what were the sizes of the cabinets, port sizes, etc. Any photos would be helpful. Has anyone done a "bass enhancement" ported attachment (box?) on the bottom of a Heresy similar to the LaScala bass enhancement modifications discussed last year? Other than the mini-Scala, has anyone made other horn loaded enclosures for the K-22/24? If so, could you please identify a thread to look at, or post some photos, ideas, etc. On the mini-Scala design (WAF favorite...) can the bass enclosure height be reduced? If so, what would be the minimum, and how would the "slot" need to be changed? In order to consider that design, I would need to "shave off" at least 6" from the total overall height of the entire cabinet. I do understand that to do anything there will be crossover modifications, etc. so that's not an issue. I'm prepared.... I would be most appreciative of any comments, directions to head, ideas to think about, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Don Gurney that made the mini Klipschorn's that Greg purchased also made some sweet mini Belle's as well. He is a forum member and in VT but I have not seen any activity from him in quite sometime. He even volunteered to make Academies for people but there were no takers. The parts alone needed to build one was about $330 minus the wood, craftsmanship, and effort involved. He is a very talented woodworker as are a number of other forum members. Do a search and see if you can find a thread on the mini Belle's. I think he ended up selling them on eBay. I have his email address at home somewhere and I do not recall his forum user ID. Those mini Scala's that Gothover made are super nice, they scream use me as a center channel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 "I would need to "shave off" at least 6" from the total overall height of the entire cabinet. " Don't forget you can save some height by mounting the k-77 vertical next to the k-700 instead of horizontal on top of the k-700 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 On a ported Heresy type cab, DrWho ran some numbers and noted that the Tangent 400 dimensions were right on the money for a K24(I think) woofer. A search might find that. He also computed the optimal port dimensions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 16, 2008 Author Share Posted January 16, 2008 I looked at the Tangent "box" (and others), and found Mike's (The Doc) calculations for the ports and PR's. But after reading the comments (some people really don't like the Tangent...) in the threads dating back to about 2003 or so, I think I'm leaning towards possibly a mini-Scala. Only issue that I really have to solve is the height of the completed "box". There's also the 400hz to 600hz "hole" that was discussed in the mini-belle thread(s), and probably what Gothover's box is experiencing. That is beyond my capability at this time, but I'm considering maybe some possible experiments with the volume of the woofer bin being "spread" wider, and maybe reducing the overall height that way. The loss of bass is not really an issue inasmuch as these would be used in the living room as part of an HT setup with other Heresy's. At some point, maybe, depending on budget, etc., maybe I'll get a subwoofer anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Marshall, I think the problem with the Tangents is that there were a lot of different models. I believe that the 400 is the only one that uses the same parts as a Heresy II. The firend of mine who has a pair of Tangent 400s says they are just wonderful... but they are mdf (I have yet to go hear them). I thought about upgrading my HIIs to the HIII series. That would leave me with almost all the parts to build a set of Tangent 400 cabinets. Sounds like a winner to me. You could easily build a cab of the correct volume that would be short enough for your situation. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 "400hz to 600hz hole" Horns are hi pass devices so there would not be a hole caused by a smaller LaScala cab. The issue would have more to do with the bottom end of the mid horn. And it's really more of a dip. So for example, if you used a k-700, there would be a gap from a flat line perspective, but not a total gap since the k-700 does not roll off on it's bottom end like a cliff, its a gradual roll off and data once posted showed some coverage into the mid 400's. But why not use a k-600 horn instead of a k-700 horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Marvel & SF; thanks for the insights. I think that the solution will be a compromise. Here's my current thinking.... Shorter bass bin height, but increase the depth by a few inches (I have approximately 22" to work with). That way retain the volume behind the driver. 1/2" thick access panel on the bottom (with a 3/4" insert that's the same size as the "hole"), thus large enough (like the LS's) to access and remove the motor board and experiment with "slots" if required. When I get the right one, then final glue the driver board, etc. Use a 700 horn with some "spacers". Should be simple enough to cut a couple few 3/4" spacers and route the "holes" to extend the exponential design. That is unless someone has a pair of K-600's they want to swap/trade for a pair of 700's.... Eliminate or reduce the "collar" to 1/4" Only other question is the "slot" on the driver board. Any ideas on a starting size? Use the size that Gothover used? little wider? Narrower but longer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 On the slot size, I think a few forum members have formulas to plot this. I think JC is one of them. Shoot him an email. Post any info so we can follow this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 18, 2008 Author Share Posted January 18, 2008 SF: Help is on the way; as soon as I have additional information, etc. I'll post how I proceed. Thanks again for the heads up!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Horns are hi pass devices so there would not be a hole caused by a smaller LaScala cab. Horns (well folded horns anyways) are low-pass devices too...mostly introduced by the reflections in the horn path. Also, a smaller cabinet usually means a smaller mouth which is going to widen the polars at the higher frequencies which will in turn reduce the on-axis SPL at the higher frequencies. In fact, I think the JAES article on the Jubilee mentions that somewhere (in case someone wants to read up on a better explanation). The size of the slot will also affect this to an extent (while being a tradeoff with distortion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 DrWho Can you take this on as a home work assignment? Whats the ideal state for a LiScala? Is the K-22 the right driver? Is the K-31? Is a sealed top with ports the way to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 SF...You know...I had a long typed out response on "ideal" in this situation. I get back from dinner and the dern post didn't show up. I'll repost it tomorrow. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 SF...You know...I had a long typed out response on "ideal" in this situation. I get back from dinner and the dern post didn't show up. I'll repost it tomorrow. jc I'm looking forward to it...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Marshall. You mentioned something of dual K22's. I drew up a dual 12" center channel for the Jubilee. This not the only one I have drawn up but I had posted this one before. The K22's will work in it and the volume of the woofer chamber is close. 70Hz horn 1/8 space. Would look good. Change out drivers from the front...like the Jamboree I built. Now the first 33 pages of the below thread is about Jubilee clone or other bass horns. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/77247.aspx?PageIndex=34 jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 Looks like an interesting option. It's the height problem that gets me every time as you saw in the photograph of the two holes that I want to place the project in. When all is said and done, I may yank that HT rack/sheving and rebuild it to be able to accomodate either a mini-scala or a mini-belle pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Got it. One 12" it is. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Marshall, The Klipsch specs on the Tangent 400 say it has a K-24 with a poly cone, which isn't correct. It is a K-24, but the same as the woofer in an HII. If I had serial numbers on my HIIs, I would get the HIII upgrade and take the old parts and make a set of Tangents, with real wood. I would have to find the horn for the mid (or make my own) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 What is the optimal (perfect?) sealed enclosure size for the K-22/24? I've read somewhere that it should be 4.5 cu ft (?). Is that so? Does that enclosure need to be "square", or can it be rectangular? (Assume that the mid range and tweeter are isolated and not in that enclosure) Has anyone made a "vented" or ported enclosure (bass reflex) for the K-22/K24 where the bass response was satisfactory (or at least similar to the sealed H-I/II)? I've look at the KPT-250 design, but there is less bass and it's really a cinema/PA speaker. If so, what were the sizes of the cabinets, port sizes, etc. Any photos would be helpful. Has anyone done a "bass enhancement" ported attachment (box?) on the bottom of a Heresy similar to the LaScala bass enhancement modifications discussed last year? I thought you might find this interesting:http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/56006.aspx Just last break I came across my attachment in my parents' basement. It's yours if you wanna pay for the shipping - although, it's crazy ugly and some modifications need to be made. I've learned so much since 3 years ago [] Btw, are your size dimensions limited to just the bass bin, or does that need to include the squawker/tweeter too? I've been mulling around on some ideas in my spare time, but don't really have the time to fully design any of those ideas. I was looking back on that thread JC posted and was really digging some of the designs. If you're good at woodworking, you might be able to do a dual 12" if you mounted the drivers at an angle so that they can share the same pre-chamber and throat (like mounting both at 45 degrees to one another). Hornresp can also model the effects of putting a port near the mouth of the horn, which in some cases can have a significant improvement...might be something to look into (and not to mention really easy with JC's configuration). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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