OT: Is it just me or is Dell sliding in quality gear?

[Guest srobak]

Getting back to the original topic -

The Vostro line is an entry level line. Most of the companies have "budget" lines. Cmon - it is a sub-500$ laptop - what do you expect? You get what you pay for. I have used Dell servers, desktops and laptops almost exclusively for the last 15 years both professionally and personally When I buy the cheap ones with cheap components - I get what I should expect - budget-line crap. However - when I buy Lats and Inspiron lappies - I get quite a bit more durability, and higher end components, mainboards (and associated chipsets), and case design. If I buy a B series desktop - I should expect budget components and case design again. Buying an Optiplex or a Precision line yields a case that is built like a tank and higher quality components.

If you want a good laptop that won't put you in the poor house from Dell - consider the Lattitude D630... great little unit with solid construction, mid-level components, and lots of features.

Saying that Dell is junk because you bought a Vostro is like saying Klipsch sucks because you took a ProMedia speaker and compared it an ML ReQuest, or a Ford Fiesta compared to a Caddy XLS. If you don't want junk - don't buy the entry line - from ANY of the manufacturers. $.02

[mas]

The biggest shortcoming of buying Dell or HP is that they employ proprietary configurations, connectors, risers, sizes, etc., limiting upgrades.

Many manufacturers do not, such as Polywell and others - thus allowing you to upgrade any level of componentry as you like - up to and including the motherboards as prices drop and abilities increase. Thus you can reuse the majority of the components without having to replace all of the other components.

If you want a reliable machine and you are not comfortable building your own, I would check out Polywell, IBuyPower and some of the other competitive brands that use industry standard components. Thus as technology increases and prices fall, you can easily upgrade many of the critical componets in an economical manner before you need to toss the machine and buy new, as Dell forces you to do. Dell is designed for the enterprise model, where machines are expensed and depreciated and then written off. Most individuals do not treat their property in a similar manner.

[Daddy Dee]

sroback,

Thanks for the recommendation of the Latitude. I'll check that out.

I think I hear what you are saying about not expecting a Cadillac when buying a Fiesta and I agree with part of it. It may well be that my expectations are too high, but I have what I think is a fair expectation that my new Fiesta would get me to work and home dependably and especially the first week I own it.

Same thing with the lowly Vostro. I have the expectation that Dell will ship it to me in working order. I have purchased seven Dell laptops over the last eight years. That's the result of keeping two kids in college and self and wife mobile equipped. When I posted the note on the Vostro, I hadn't yet had the second experience of the week returning a new Dell XPS notebook because the chassis was warped out of square. Only three of the four rubber feet would rest on the desktop at one time.

I appreciate your take on this. I am indeed beginning to think that I am expecting too much of Dell.

[Daddy Dee]

mas,

Thanks for the heads up on Polywell.

[jbsl]

Dell has a forum like Klipsch.

http://www.dellcommunity.com/http://direct2dell.com/one2one/default.aspx'>

[Marvel]

The biggest shortcoming of buying Dell or HP is that they employ proprietary configurations, connectors, risers, sizes, etc., limiting upgrades.

I guess that is why folks have been able to install OSX on a Dell Latitude D820 and have all the hardware work without any patches to the OS.

Although we are rotating them out due to performance issues (far too slow), we still have some Dell Dimension XPS T500 computers in use constantly (500Mhz) running Win2K. The newer desktops have worked out just as well. You get a lemon every once in awhile, but they are usually pretty solid. It is essential that you don't get the smaller footprint boxes, because they tend to use laptop drives (CD/DVD, and HD), which CAN be problematic when replacing. ButI think that 7 or 8 years is a long service life for a computer.

You just have to remember that the great thing about standards is that there are so many of them.

[jacksonbart]

No, its just you.

[Jay481985]

Apple hardware is killer. I have owned alot of it and it consistantly last longer. The Mac OS doesn't have to support nearly the same amount of hardware windows does and this results in a smaller more efficient kernel. The Mac OS is my favorite so far and I am completely biased. Comparing Apple to Bose is way off IMO. Apple = Quality not just an image.

guess you never opened them up... use the same products the dell hp etc guys use. Now they use intel too

If you are in any specialized field you need to make sure the hardware and software you need to use supported by the OS and computer. You are correct the right tool for the job especially if you are specialized. Doing research before you buy any computer pays off.

If I need Windows for something specific now I can boot right into Windows and do what I need then return to the safety of OS X. I beta tested Vista and I can honestly say it is the worst OS they have ever made. First if you beta tested vista you would have called it longhorn and second come come, I think windows millenium was their worst. Now windows xp is just getting very stable and mostly trouble free as long as you have antivirus plus adware/spyware detection software running. Windows has consistantly missed the security boat and they are paying the price now as not many are in a hurry for vista or their new BS security model. This is something that apple took seriously years ago and microsoft didn't.

Sincerely,

MacAddict

[Daddy Dee]

No, its just you.

bummer. I was afraid of that.

[Jay481985]

And why is it that only folks who live in the PC world have all of these compalints about the Mac and its 'problems'? The silence is deafening among the Mac folks who actually live on these things. And the PC world wishes that they had the customer sat figure that the Macs do. Of course many of them don't even know that there is a full blown command line terminal environment that the Windows folks can only wax philosophically about as it has been several generations since they have been able to do anything but ping, fdisk, and ipconfig (and on a regular basis as Windows loses communication with the I/O devices!) Oh, and I hear that Windows has finallly heard of a functionality called "scripting'! Go figure!

also all those people that wait on line at 9:50 am in the morning to get their macs fixed.

The pc world also caters to the middle class or people who do not have money to spend on the apple tax

Also watch when wall street punishes apple stock like they did in the 90's remember their own board members kicked him out when apple stocks went bad. Never heard of Bill Gates getting kicked off his position but stepping down to oversee the Bill and Melinda foundation

[Jay481985]

The biggest shortcoming of buying Dell or HP is that they employ proprietary configurations, connectors, risers, sizes, etc., limiting upgrades.

Many manufacturers do not, such as Polywell and others - thus allowing you to upgrade any level of componentry as you like - up to and including the motherboards as prices drop and abilities increase. Thus you can reuse the majority of the components without having to replace all of the other components.

If you want a reliable machine and you are not comfortable building your own, I would check out Polywell, IBuyPower and some of the other competitive brands that use industry standard components. Thus as technology increases and prices fall, you can easily upgrade many of the critical componets in an economical manner before you need to toss the machine and buy new, as Dell forces you to do. Dell is designed for the enterprise model, where machines are expensed and depreciated and then written off. Most individuals do not treat their property in a similar manner.

excuse me? and apple doesn't do proprietary configurations? like hmmm case, bios, until recently cpu (like the risc chip) the motherboard exclusive (can I overclock my apple? my memory?) Also hmmm apple software seems to run much quicker on what this an apple computer forcing you to buy apple software over the competitions. What was that itunes was documented into giving windows machines the bsod? And why does itunes use 30% of my cpu power to play music??? I mean winamp uses 1% and about a meg of memory versus itunes 30-50 megs of memory.

[oldtimer]

So the big shortcoming of dell, hp AND apple is re:mas post. What i have picked up with my limited view of home computing evolution is you always need more hard drive and more ram to do the latest applications. An easily upgradeable machine for "everyman" in this regard would be a nice feature, assuming cost effectiveness.

[mas]

Jay, please do some research before you jump on something you don't know anything about.

A proprietary BIOS? My posterior!

EFI (extensible firmware interface) is a non proprietary 64 bit BIOS developed by Intel for their 64 bit Itanium series. It is not a privately licensed third party app licensed from companies such as Phoenix! EFI is not some private BIOS that Apple concocted - but it is one of the reported features and functionality that MS CUT from Vista! Oh...

Apple went with it as they did not have to worry about all of the folks still running legacy versions of Windows including 3.1! Essentially Bootcamp, along with Parallels, is now incorporated into the OS - which provides an additional 32 bit BIOS that Windows (including the purty Vista) and Linux can recognize. Oh, but then you still have to figure out whether to run the 32 bit or the 64 bit version of Windows don't you? OSX is full blown 64/32 bit compliant. It doesn't care which you run, as it is fully 64 bit, and allowing 32 bit apps to run concurrently as well...so it joins the ranks of AIX and other OSes that have 64/32 bit capability for over 10 years!

Funny, I mention Polywell and IBuyPower as examples of PC manufacturers who use standard components (ATA, IDE, SATA, standard form factors which are readily available and which dominate the PC market) and you jump on Apple machines - or is it that you simply failed to read the post that you quoted? Oops!

And I don't give a damn about your or anyone else's iPod, fanboy. If I want to listen to compressed music i will listen to my AM radio. You mess with iTunes or MP3s and you deserve whatever you get!

And no, Apple does not use proprietary connectors in their desktops as Dell does. In an IBuyPower or Polywell machne you can upgrade any component in the machine, even the motherboard. And that is why I suggested them for this capability. The fact is, if you want an upgradeable computer, these brands are among vendors who are a better deal than Dell. You might want to do a bit of research and find out what the "Intel Roadmap" is about...or better yet, attend an Intel Developers' Forum..And if you run Windows on an Apple and play your tunes, it will perform the same as any other PC. And I really don't care about comparing Codecs and cross-OS interpretations. Like I said, if I want to listen to low-fi music, I can find an AM radio.

The fact remains that currently the Mac provides you with more environmental choices than does a traditional PC, and you are limited by your desires and not by the limitations of the machine regarding the OSes and apps you wish to run. Hopefully Apple will release an unsupported version of OSX for all machines, but until that happens, you have more choices with theMac, and this repeated notion that they are not competitive cost wise is simply hogwash. And if you are intent on saving a few hundred dollars more, simply sign up for a 1 hour underwater basket weaving class or a 1 hour salsa lesson at a local community college, and you qulaify for the Apple educational discount.

[el jopez]

And if you are intent on saving a few hundred dollars more, simply sign up for a 1 hour underwater basket weaving class or a 1 hour salsa lesson at a local community college, and you qulaify for the Apple educational discount.

What, a whole hundred dollars? Thats atleast the savings I get through my school from Apple. Maybe I ought to attend a more ritzier academic establishment [*-)]

I've been looking at the Macbooks a bit myself lately. However I'm annoyed at the fact that apple has yet to introduce a dual button trackpad on its notebooks plus the reality I would have to relearn all the shortcuts that I've mastered over the years in the Windows enviroment. Not to mention the large amount of software I've amassed for XP over the years that I don't really care to repurchase for OS X or run via parallels/bootcamp. If I were to constantly do that it would defeat the purpose of going with OS X. [:^)]

For the record though, the new XPS don't seem bad though the metal finish seems to give people a shocking experience as of lately. However for 1500, I'm holding my breath on this sick puppy.

[mas]

They offer educational discounts. The amount varies with the cost - the more expensive, the larger the discount. But if you don't want to take advantage of them, don't use them.

And you can use any mouse you like - even a 3 button mouse standard on UNIX systems. Use whatever peripherals you want! What a silly reason to condemn a computer due to your personal preference in a mouse! I use a 'thumb trackball mouse (Logitech Trackman Wheel) exclusively on everything I can. And if that is not available I use a 3 button mouse. So since nothing comes standard with the thunb trackball I guess I should trash the entire computer industry!

ROFLMAO!

If you run XP or whatever on the Mac with VMWare you don't have to repurchase ANYTHING! And companies like Adobe allow you to upgrade across platform, and many that develop for both give you both versions on the CD/DVD! Such a complaint belies ones understanding of running multiple OSes concurrently on a machine!

Gee, and none of the computers are available in purple paisely! [*-)]

[el jopez]

And you can use any mouse you like - even a 3

button mouse standard on UNIX systems. Use whatever peripherals you want! What

a silly reason to condemn a computer due to your personal preference in a

mouse! I use a 'thumb trackball mouse exclusively on every thing. And if that

is not available I use a 3 button mouse. So since nothing comes standard

with the thunb trackball I guess I should trash the entire computer industry!

Yes, if I cared to drag an additional peripheral with me while on the go.

Its a matter of convenience and a legitimate personal preference. Why

apple hasn't adopted this approach yet is odd.

If you run XP or whatever on the Mac with VMWare you don;t have to

repurchase ANYTHING! And companies like Adobe allow you to upgrade across

platform, and many that develop for both give you both versions on the

CD/DVD!

Sorry, but you missed the point. I'm fully aware of the capabilities

of running Vista or XP on an apple machine. The issue raised is in constantly

using a library of software that wasn't designed to run natively via

macbook. There would be a bit of switching back and forth between the two

platforms. When I explained this to the girl at the Apple store she

looked at me and asked: "Why don't you just buy a native Vista machine?”

From the mouth of babes.

Gee, and none of the computers are available in purple paisely!

O really? (close enough at least)

Unfortunately you cannot customize it for an HD optical drive.

[mas]

Still clueless.

Vista and Windows DO run NATIVELY on the Mac!!!!!!

And you DO have the functionality of a dual button mouse/trackpad! You just Ctrl Click! I do carry an external mouse, as the callouses from playing the upright bass render my fingers useless on the trackpads! Maybe i should sue all of the manufacturers. LOL! Besdies, I like the mouse better.And amazingly enough, it is no hassle at all.

Sorry that that is soooooooooooooooooo kompleekated. LOL

I am so glad we are reduced to debating stuff that is SOOOOOO ridiculously 'substantial'!

If you don't like it, don't buy it. ...all because it has a one button trackball and hitting Ctrl is so difficult. "O really? (close enough at least) [*-)]

If you are content to function within the more limited Windows/Linux environment, by all means enjoy yourself. If hitting the ctrl key is so prohibitively complex, you certainly don't need the power and flexibility of UNIX. The fact is you sacrifice NO loss of functionality due to the mouse/trackpad. But you certainly do as a result of not being able to use OSX..

ROFLMAO.

[Jay481985]

Jay, please do some research before you jump on something you don't know anything about.

A proprietary BIOS? My posterior!

can I tweak it without trying to hack it? in today's age of proprietary there is no such apple made this or dell made this specific, apple is proprietary once it tries to prevent you from doing some certain thing that most other bios or motherboards allow you to do.

And I don't give a *** about your or anyone else's iPod, fanboy. If I
want to listen to compressed music i will listen to my AM radio. You
mess with iTunes or MP3s and you deserve whatever you get!

now now no need to get frustrated

[Jay481985]

I just don't like trackpads.

[jbsl]

Ford or Chevy, Klipsch or whatever, Mac or PC everyone has their own personal choices for what they use.

I'm running a Dell Dimension 8400 with XP and have no complaints.

I have used my sisters Apple, 20 inch monitor with the dvd in the side, and other Apples and was not impressed. Part of the problem was I don't know the OS and I was trying to do things my sister did not know how to do so that was frustrating.

Now with that being said I am just a basic PC user, surf the web, check emails and basic photoshop, etc.

So the Mac does not seem any better or worse than my Dell for my needs. So I don't know of any reason why I should buy a Mac even if I can used Windows on it.