All American Audio

[oldbuckster]

And I have been in a union, (several without choice actually), thank you. And I only wish that they ever asked me my opinion

Gee Guy, Union meetings are only so long !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mas]

And I have been in a union, (several without choice actually), thank you. And I only wish that they ever asked me my opinion

Gee Guy, Union meetings are only so long !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And even shorter when they tell you what your opinion is and their goons make sure no one dissents.

Especially when a newer but larger facility, regarding the access to benefits, chooses to vote themselves priority over a smaller facility where the members have greater seniority but fewer votes. Kind of like a city annexing an area without the area being able to decide whether they want to be annexed!

TO me, seniority is a asinine system, and skill should prevail, but hey, wouldn't it be nice if an organization that lives by such Neanderthal rules actually played by them?

Teamsters = Protection Racket

[mas]

Yes, you can choose to live in a moral vacuum as a market cog. .....

To let your self be mired in such terms as "Lib" or "Conservative" or to identify with a national political party is to play the game at Level 1 - just for noobs, neophites and suckers. That IS what the MSM and PR firms are all about - keeping the masses mired in silly Rush Limbaughesque arguments about flat taxes, or abortion, or gay marriage, or free markets. The NYT, WaPO, FOX, NBC - it's all about distracting the masses from the hiway robbery going on right under their noses. Keep pulling those rubber "voting levers" - just don't dig beyond that.

And yes, by all means convince yourself that economics is occurring in a moral vacuum.

HUH?

First of all, terms need not be empty cliches, but they can also represent fundamental concepts regarding the scope and role of various bodies in a greater context. And to this degree they trancend the vacuous notions we hear everyday on the news(sic) and in the papers. Words CAN mean things! (Or at least I labor under the potential for such!)

We got to listen to the overly generalized rant that Unions make the world better for the worker - a great line years ago before they became self-perpetuating self-interest organizations more concerned about maintaining power than in helping a constuency with which they have long since lost touch.

And your support for them is simply a perpetuation of the very cliche'd world of labels you claim to eschew as you continue to promelgate them.

No one operates in a vacuum. In fact, that is the very antithesis of the point that many here have have said!

But as usual, we get to labor under the specious charge of "choos(ing) to live in a moral vacuum as a market cog". LOL!

The fact is: the world market is no longer American and foreign, black and white, management versus worker, good versus bad. It is a far more complex environment than any simple linear model represents.The marketplace, for good or bad, is now a global market. And the simplistic "Buy American" or "Buy Union" slogan has become representative of an overly simplistic myopic vision that, in a zeal for a world as you might like it, has lost touch with the world as it is.

And while some can lament the fact, and dream of putting the genie back into the bottle and returning to old industrial models of society and the economy, that fantasy is neither desireable nor practical.

The fact is that each person has a choice to determine what represents their interests, however they perceive them to be, whether it is short term cost or larger long term global impact. And while I have my views, that really doesn't matter, as those views are only valid for me, and I don't try to impose them on others in the form of telling them what they should or shouldn't buy.

Just as I am quite capable of making my decisions, they are capable of making theirs. And I eschew any group who in their zeal to solve everyone's problems, attempts to impose their course of behavior on others, be it politicians or unions.

I am quite capable of making my own decisions and mistakes, and I certainly don't need any group who claims to represent my interests TELLING me how I must think and/or act.

And here are far too many of them. And they do not operate in a vacuum, nor are they moral - despite how self-righteous their altruistic claims of caring for others may be. If they are so moralistic, there efforst should be to eliminate the source of their claimed need for existence - not reinforcing the need of their ever continued presence!

Folks, if you want a good overview of the battle of ideas and markets over the past 100 years, you could do much worse than to get a copy of the video "The Commanding Heights". And you can avoid the sloganeering of the old tired ideas that history has left largely behind us and look forward to a more challenging, and changing environment with something other than simply the fear of change.

Yup, and attempt to denigrate concepts such as the flat tax by attaching it to Rush Limbaugh. But I guess one has to if they are not familiar with the theories of inconsequential folks like Milton Friedman. At least its not the brainstorm of Al Franken.

[frankphess]

I can vouch for B&K, JuicyMusic, & NosValves products, as I have and use all three. I currently run a full B&K system for 5.1 and use a JM Peach with NOSValves stereo amplifier for 2-channel listening. I absolutely love both. If you're going with KHorns and stereo, I would go with a JM Peach (or Blueberry) with a NOSValves (VRD or ST) creation. If you stick with 5.1 HT, I would look at B&K.

[mas]

There are many options for domestically sourced products, and that also includes the major pro amps of Crown, Crest and QSCas well as those mentioned.

The question arises for some if companies such as McIntosh qualify as their operational base is still in the US made by Americans, although the company has since been bought bu a foreign holding company.

And in this sense, like buying a domestically producted Toyota, one gets to decide to the degree that supporting such a product helps the workers and domestic economy in which the product is produced, and the ramifications of those workers' spending , or whether the fact that the corporate profits are distributed elsewhere is more important.

And to a large degree, to see a locally produced foreign owned company 'go under' and close a local facility is little different that having a locally owned facility 'go under'.

Thus, generally, to the degree that I can, I personally try to support the local economy. And that may even involve buying a locally made foreign branded item. As the majority of the money will be recirculated back into the local economy. But most items are not so simple, and the retailer benefits to a higher degre than the manufacturer by a local sale. So even a local sale of a foreign product may benefit the local community more than say buying an 'American' product via the web located somewhere else.may.

So to that degree, you get to decide upon the degree of impact your decision has. But in any regard, the decision is not as neat and simple as "Buy Union" or "Buy American". And I guess if you adhere to that philosphy, I guess we should get out of the exposrt business as well, as a "moral"(sic) person would refuse to impose such heinous repercussions on others...I'll hold my breath while the Union reps pull out those signs!

[mas]

"The marketplace, for good or bad, is now a global market. "

----------------

Have you never heard then of Marco Polo, the Silk Road, Cortez, The Massachussetts Bay Company, the Ventians, the Phoenicians, The Hudson Bay Company? The marketplace has been global for as long as anyone could mount a camel, pull a wagon, or sail a boat. There is NOTHING new about "global markets" except the rules.

This is a great example of the sort of misdirection, misinformation and pure pablum that passes for conventional wisdom based upon reports from the "media." Just laughable stuff.

Good, then I hope that means we won't have to be subjected any of your thoughts on the non-existent off-shoring and out-sourcing.

And we won't confuse you with the concept that there can be a differnce in the degree to which the raw material and the finished product is sourced from or sold to foreign lands - where this becomes the norm rather than the exception.

And we certainly won't confuse you with the facts that most of the examples you cite were financial failures, despite opening doors to future ventures. BTW, you left out the fabulously successful Jamestown Colony.

Edit:

Let me clarify Mark's insanity just a
bit.

The world is now a truley global
market. It was not before. Oh sure, there was some international trade.
but there have been two major shifts in the last several decades that ole' Mark
simply missed out on.

First, previously, the norm was that
corporations located primarily in one country might have traded with entities
in other countries. But you see, major change is that these corporations
are no longer simply centered in one or two countries. Multi-national
corporations have become the norm. No longer is a corporation limited to having
the majority of its resources in just one country. And thus we now face
corporations where their financial vested interest is distributed over many
companies, and their fiscal health is not limited to the economy of just one
country.

For instance, Toyota was once a
Japanese corporation, with all of its various divisions located in Japan. But
now it is distributed about many countries. 50 years ago it would have been
unheard of for Toyota to be manufacturing cars in the US. Both because they did
not want to, and we did not want them to. Now we compete for their factories.
Likewise, Jaguar was distinctively English and Saab distinctively
Swedish. The idea that either might be owned by a corporation
headquartered in another country, let alone another continent would have been laughed
at.

But now, this is not the case. Unlike
what was common not too many years ago - in our lifetimes - Many companies and
corporations are now either located in multiple countries and/or actively do
business in multiple countries and continents. This evidently is a very complex
concept for Mark to grasp.

Additionally, the world has also
changed in a very significant way. you see, for 60 some years, and to an even
greater degree since WW2, the world was divided into two isolated regions: the
so called Communist Block and the free world. And unknown to Mark, little open
trade was conducted between these blocks - aside form occasional prisoner
exchanges. But that could hardly be considered a vibrant market.

But with the fall of the Soviet Union
and the move towards a market economy by China, this 'other half' of the world arrived
and discovered that they too wanted a piece of he pie - and the world market.
And not only do they possess material resources, but they possess substantial
intellectual capabilities as well. And many of them, wanting a share of the
good life they saw in the West, are more than willing to work for less
than their western counterparts, as the cost of living in their regions is
substantially less.

But you see, for Mark, a world
consisting of only one half the globe is still the world. Nothing has changed.
The world to Mark has always been a global economy. China and Japan always have
been famous for cheap trinkets. Despite not being open to foreign markets until
just this last century. But whose keeping time, right Mark? And until the last
20 years, the Soviet Block has been totally cut off from open commerce with the
west - thus efectively eliminating them from any substantial trade for most of
their industrial age. But again, whose paying attention to time...a few
generations here, a few generations there...Its all so trivial isn't it.

The fact is, the present world economy,
with so many emerging markets moving into a state where they can and are
actively able to compete with us does present a radically new economy.

But Mark says that hey, Marco Polo got
some Yak hair from China a thousand years ago (after a very warm welcome and
being held prisoner for how long??? Sounds like they could have benefited from
a NAFTA agreement, don't you think? And then to have that market close for
centuries, and to have Japan order death to any foreigner who landed on its
shores until the last century! Ah, but they are just technicalities! Its
always been a global economy!

This reminds me of a book my
grandmother, who was very devoutly religious, gave me and which I still have.
The topic was evolution. And we all know what nonsense that is! It chronicles a
6 inch tall horse, and then in several pages the horse reappears… only this
time its 6+ feet tall. and the caption is essentially: Its was a horse then and
its still a horse now! Walla! So you see, there is no evolution. …Never mind
its slight bout with what some might call a slight hormonal problem over the
ages.

And so with Mark. It was a global
economy in the days of Marco Polo and his captivity, and its a global economy
now. Nothing has changed. And unfortunately, at least one individual's
conception of world markets is just as stunted as the growth of the 5inch tall
horse.

But you see, to people like Mark, the
only way that these people can enter into the world market is via slave labor,
exploitation and overall human and societal suffering. And as such, I guess
because ole' Mark cares so much for them that he is against people here
supporting the exploitation and the ecological damage to those people's
countries as he would rather we not allow them to enter the market here.
And a good way to protect those poor people is to refuse to buy their products,
as they are late to the party and have never belonged to the proper labor
unions - despite many having been subjected to the tyranny of the very same
dictatorial socialism that played such a large role in the formation and
support of our very own labor movement!

In fact, let me quote a passage from
the reviews of a text that resulted from Princeton Universities admittance into
the Soviet Archives following the fall of the Soviet Union. Oh, and this book
does not editorialize. Rather it simply collects the specific records form the
archive illuminating the actual activities and involvement of the Soviets in US
domestic affairs. So in other words, we get to se the Russian records and
receipts. Not someone’s notions or feeling or guesses about them.

And in particular, please note the
points mentioned in the Kirkus review regarding the CIO union activity. Oh, and
also note that American names were also submitted for purging during the Stalin
'holidays in the country'. But then you don't hear too much now days about the
full role that the Soviets played in the grand American Labor Union tradition!
And the full extent is even more interesting. but don't take the reviews word
for it. the records are those of the Soviet Archives - their records and
receipts - not opinions and innuendo: (And you can find this on Amazon.com)

The Soviet World of American Communism
(Annals of Communism Series)

Klehr, Haynes, Anderson

Amazon.com

In this follow-up to 1995's Secret World of American Communism, newly
available documents from Russian archives firmly establish the deep
relationship between the Communist Party of the United States (CPUSA) and
Moscow. The Soviet Union controlled CPUSA leadership and policy, including the
crushing of dissent within the ranks. Among the revelations in this volume are
confirmation that the criticisms which eventually led to the ouster of CPUSA
head Earl Browder originated from within the Kremlin.
The publication of these documents forces a harsh reevaluation of the notion
that American Communists, as a whole, were simply idealistic patriots fighting
for social justice.



From Library Journal

Histories of the Communist Party of the United States of America (CPUSA) all
build on Theodore Draper's classic The American Communist Party: A Critical
History, 1919-1957 (1957. o.p.). The recent opening of Soviet archives to
scholars has generated a new spate of books. This one is a companion to the
authors' earlier The Secret World of American Communism (Yale Univ., 1995), and
follows the same format of interspersing reproduced documents with
well-informed narrative. The authors focus on the CPUSA's relationship with the
Communist International (Comintern), whose mission was to spread world
communism from its inception in 1919. The Comintern, they conclude, closely
directed the CPUSA, allowing little independence in the American party's daily
functioning. The book concentrates on the period from about 1920 until
Khrushchev's secret 1956 speech that condemned Stalinism and served to
undermine communism's international cohesiveness. This valuable synthesis will
complement Albert Fried's recent Communism in America: A History in Documents
(Columbia Univ., 1997). Recommended.?Ed Goedeken, Iowa State Univ. Lib., Ames

From Booklist

This title continues the Annals of Communism series about documents found in
Soviet-era archives. Important for students, the series might be too
specialized for general-interest libraries, yet some installments coincide with
serious-minded popular tastes, including The Fall of the Romanovs (1995)
and this portrait of the Communist Party of the United States of America, which
in the 1930s and 1940s was significant in domestic politics and about which
Klehr has written previously (The Heyday of American Communism, 1984).
The documents Klehr's team unearthed illustrate the total dependence of U.S.
Communist Party members on the Soviet Union. Soviet influence inevitably
extended from financial support to policies and personnel, and the most
poignant documents here concern Lovett Fort-Whiteman, a black leader of the
party who worked for the Comintern in the 1930s--then disappeared. But in his
case, one of as many as a thousand accused Trotskyists that the American party
turned over to Soviet police, there was a paper trail, which is reprinted here.
Rich source material for history students. Gilbert Taylor



From Kirkus Reviews

With the publication of this book, the debate about whether the Communist
Party of the United States (CPUSA) was a genuinely home-grown movement or a
tool of the Soviet Union has been finally answered. Based on the archives
of the Communist International (Comintern) in Moscow, Klehr and Haynes
(coauthors of The Secret World of American Communism, not reviewed) and
Anderson (a Russian archivist) make it clear that, throughout the period
from its founding in 1919 until the dissolution of the Comintern in 1943, the
CPUSA was heavily funded by the Soviet Union, which selected and paid its
leaders, and dictated its strategy. The volume doesn't purport to be a
comprehensive history of the party but concentrates on the relationship with
Moscow. It is clear that that subordination damaged the ability of the party
to make the alliances and adjustments that would have increased its already
considerable influence in the labor movement, where by the end of WW II
Communists led or helped lead 18 CIO affiliates. While large numbers of
individual members became disillusioned and resigned, the party obediently
followed every twist in Soviet strategy, from the Nazi-Soviet Pact to its
repudiation when Germany attacked the Soviet Union. Most shameful of all, the
authors note, there is not a single document in which an official of the CPUSA
tried to save anyone from Stalin's purges. Indeed, there were occasions in
which they leveled accusations that sent Americans to the Gulag. This
belief in Soviet perfection ``gave American Communists strength,'' convincing
them that it was possible to create an American utopia; the Khrushchev
revelations about Stalin's crimes lost the party more than three-quarters of
its membership. This is one of those seminal books that do not merely
contribute to a debate, but effectively end it.



Book Description

Drawing on documents newly available from Russian archives, this important book
conclusively demonstrates the continuous and intimate ties between the
Communist Party of the United States of America (CPUSA) and Moscow. Digging
even deeper than the authors' earlier volume, The Secret World of American
Communism, it conclusively demonstrates that the CPUSA was little more than a
pawn of the Soviet regime.

Yup, it was a global economy and
marketplace during Marco Polo's time, and it continues unchanged today.
ROFLMAO!!!!!!

[mas]

ROFLMAO!

You need to take another vacation to Esalen and report back on the new "center for theory and research", Murphy's new "R&D arm" .

And be sure to bring PowerPoints of the latest ideas regarding "eco-psychology" and the new papers with titles such as "Integral Business Planning Document".

And folks, this stuff is real, I couldn't make up such nonsense.

Yup, its failing everywhere Mark! Unfortunately it is the very succes of such programs overseas that are giving us fits!

[mas]

Remember the subject? Or, has that flown out of your head?

Sure do! And yours was "Buy Union"! Which means we don't, and won't be buying any of your stuff!

Your 'old left' views wrapped in your "New Age" moralism have grown very tired. Sorry if you can't keep up with the references...

The irony is that your views are the very ones which failed and were supplanted in the last 25 years in the global markets, resulting in their substantial growth.

LOL!

[kevinmi]

Thanks to all my fellow Forum Brothers for their input on American made Electronics. The discussions about economy, politics, and who knows what else, was very enlightening to say the least.

I have made some observations:

There is a lot of great stuff out ther made in the USA

Some people like unions

Some people don't like unions

Some people are much smarter than I am

Everyone has a opinion!

I have a lot of research to do, but in the meantime, please continue to debate. Thanks-Kevin

[mas]

Have not the various firms listed provided you with enough options?

And even if your goal is to support local economies to the best of your abilities, sometimes it makes sense to acknowledge the diversity in the available market and to buy the best product in each niche at the best price, regardless of where it is made or who makes it.

I can only imagine your dillemma when you reach the point of buying a new TV!

[mas]

LOL!

You are the one that goes off into ancient tales of the benefits of the American Labor movement in the 30's and early 40's (despite its less than honorable history!) and of the laughable global economy defined by Marco Polo!

And yes, political systems were largely responsible for fragmjented markets, and their fall the source of radically expanded markets. And this expansion is a very pertinent source of changes in the current market.

Of course, you nonsensical notion that the global market of Marco Polo is the same as what is referred to as a growing global market today simply demonstrates that while you are lucid enough to use a dictionary for spelling, you simply cannot grasp the meanings of the terms.

And now whether someone should buy an American made stereo is now subject to your ramblings about digging coal in West Virginia. well, ge wiz, thats not to far afield from discussing Marco polo! LOL!

The point you have missed all along is the one originally mentioned by Ole Buck, and that was why is buying McIntosh, a product designed, and manufactured in the US by Americans, bad. Despite McIntosh being owned by a foreign company.

You are the one who rambled on about the anything but glamous work of Big Labor!

And we have listened to your quasi-religious explanations describing your
attempts to bring social responsibility and the Tao into business and
economics on several occassions!. But then I guess you aren't familiar with Esalen...Nevertheless, the
association fits. As your lack of understanding does not lessen the validity of
the topical nexus.

And I only wish that I had the time to listen to talk radio, as I do like Rush, but he is on when i am not available to listen But I
guess that your bold(sic) unsubstantiated statement was meant as some kind of
insult - albeit as ineffectual as it was.. But then I am not a big Hannady fan as I
am absolutely Not a social conservative. And unfortunately, few of the elected Right have
figured out what fiscal conservatism or the more libertarian POV is as they rush to be the biggest pig in the trough, so bash away all you like. And yet - they still do a better job
than the alternative - not that that is saying much...

But with the increasingly diversified nature of mutlinational corporations in a global marketplace (and do we need to stop and figure out what stereo Marco Polo had????), it is increasingly hard to determine just what is American.

In answer to Bucks question, I don't have a problem with buying McIntosh from the point of view of its origin, except that I think there are better values around for the money. And I don't have a problem buying a Toyota or Nissan or what have you produced in this country.

But ultimately, I am going to buy the best product, regardless of where it is produced. And the last thing I am going to look for is a Union label where seniority rather than ability is the primary focus per the Union's standards! And that is a sad way to have to view the American worker - or any worker for that matter.

But then, regarding big labor, I quoted the reviews as few are as unequivocal in their admiration of a well researched authoratative text. The difference between us here being that I have actually read the book, and the others in the series. And they develop a much less complimentary picture of the "willing fools" who populated the leadership rolls of the Unions. But don't let facts confuse your fantastic (as 'couched in fantasy') opinion of the Labor Unions.

[Mighty Favog]

There is a dealer in Flint-let me know if you need directions.

Sounds like Today's Audio (BTW- Red used to be an Electrical Engineer for GM).

[dkp]

There is a dealer in Flint-let me know if you need directions.

Sounds like Today's Audio (BTW- Red used to be an Electrical Engineer for GM).

You got it! Red is a great guy. I knew that he used to work for GM but not his position.

[kevinmi]

There is a dealer in Flint-let me know if you need directions.

Sounds like Today's Audio (BTW- Red used to be an Electrical Engineer for GM).

You got it! Red is a great guy. I knew that he used to work for GM but not his position.

Red sold me my first set of Klipsch speakers back in the 80's. A used set of Cornwalls. Had them all this time until last month when I sold them to another Forum Brother. I remember Red when he actually was red(hair)! Speaking of Flint-does anyone know where Craig Johnson went after he Closed the Stereo Shop on Miller Rd? He had a Klipsch franchise for a while and I bought my current system from him.

[jacksonbart]

What ever happened too?

[oldbuckster]

Connie Sellecca .... yum, yum !!!!!!!!!!!!!! .................. Now that's TOP NOTCH !!!!!!!!