Another Musician Laments the CD

[joshnich]

Interesting article in the latest Rolling Stone about T Bone Burnetts "battle" to provide music on sound formats that are superior to CD. "We've been fighting the limitations of digital audio since it first came out" he says. " The artists lost control and it just got to the point where the Dude could not abide" he goes on to say. He has started a new venture called Code, which he hopes will do for audio what THX did for movie sound. The first release using the Code will be the album he produced for John Mellencamp that will be released in July. He says that despite the popularity of mp3s, and the failure of previous attempts (SACD and DVD audio) consumers want better sound and he sites th growing popularity of vinyl as proof. Lets hear it for T bone!

josh

[oldbuckster]

Yea, that's interesting, isn't that right above the Neil Young 10 disc Blu-Ray set due out in October .............. let's see 10 disc set, plus you need a Blu-ray player, pretty expensive, 10 disc sets only, could be 4 or 5 sets ............ When asked about price, Neil said; [qoute],"It's going to be very expensive, because it's very good". I'll take the horrible sounding CD's anyday, atleast I can afford them ................. The Recording Industry is dying a slow death, we best come to terms with it. Cd's, tapes, Vinyl will soon be buried and forgotten ...................

[joshnich]

I think it is interesting to note that T-Bone's format wil play in any standard DVD player. A different approach to the issue. I for one am also glad that there are artists who care aabout the sound quality we should all wish more did.

Josh

[oldbuckster]

OK, let's try this, At what PRICE is this available ? All Musicans care about sound quality, this is not a new argument. What price is the public willing to pay for supposedly better Musical reproduction ? It's a question I'm asking, not baiting an argument .................

[LoudnClear]

ΧΟΔΕ (CODE)

This must be extrememly new, because there's hardly anything on the web that's not derived from the first couple public mentions of the new format.

I look forward to testing it on the John Couger record that comes out mid July.

It sounds like the magic is in the fidelity of the analog to digital conversion, not the final format itself. Sounds like it reuses an end format that most DVD players already do, which must be 96 kHz/ 24 bit.

Like I've said before, I don't think the CD is inherently evil, I have a few that sound as good as anything I've ever heard as far as clarity, purity, and detail of tone and texture are concerned. The bigger problem these days is the poor production and mastering of music these days with all the compression and such. There is so much more room for sound improvement in the recording/mixing/mastering phases than there is in the digital storage formats side of things.

I do like to see new developments in hi resolution audio though. I hope someday (young) people will realize what they're missing with all the mp3 garbage. There is so much ignorance and apathy in this information age. The distance between the common public and those who at least attempt to stay informed on technology is growing larger every year.

[LoudnClear]

OK, let's try this, At what PRICE is this available ? All Musicans care about sound quality, this is not a new argument. What price is the public willing to pay for supposedly better Musical reproduction ? It's a question I'm asking, not baiting an argument .................

Buckmaster,

For what its worth, I read in one of the john couger articles that the special code disk with all the extra digital formats will be a free bonus, included with the CD. The ΧΟΔΕ record label is looking at it as a high resolution disk with a bonus free CD though. While the price is not given, I expect it to be right in line with other CD new releases.

On a seperate note, I notice that you talk alot about money and the cost of music. If you find the things you want are out of your budget, the solution is to go out and work more/harder/extra to earn more money so you can afford the things you want. Since there are people out there who are willing to pay what it takes to get those things, the price isn't going to come down because a group of people don't buy them because they believe it costs too much. Complaining about the price of things isn't going to help anything. You either want something and will work extra to get it or you do without and be quiet. How's that for a friendly comment. I'm not beating you up, just telling you how I see it...

Best wishes, Kimball

[Mallette]

Nobody cares about formats. If they have a chance, it will only be because the consumer need only know it will play in their DVD player. Even that may be a problem as the average consumer will try to stick it in anything that it will go into and assume its bad if it doesn't play.

What we need is UNVERSAL PLAYERS. It is not only not rocket science, but off the shelf. Your PC is basically a UP, though the parts are not very well coordinated.

A player should simply read the data, then decode it, whether it be MP3, flac, wav, vob, mpeg, jpeg, whatever.

Dave

[Mike Lindsey]

On a seperate note, I notice that you talk alot about money and the cost of music. If you find the things you want are out of your budget, the solution is to go out and work more/harder/extra to earn more money so you can afford the things you want. Since there are people out there who are willing to pay what it takes to get those things, the price isn't going to come down because a group of people don't buy them because they believe it costs too much. Complaining about the price of things isn't going to help anything. You either want something and will work extra to get it or you do without and be quiet. How's that for a friendly comment. I'm not beating you up, just telling you how I see it...

Yep... I agree. I am pretty much paying $50 for every album I buy now (sometimes more), and I am only buying vinyl (most of it new). I have found the new 45 rpm pressings being made today far exceed (other than a few DVD-A discs I own) anything else I have heard to date. The sonics on these recordings are staggering! Once you hear these it is hard to settle for less imho. I guess it all comes down to what's important to you.

Mike

[joshnich]

OK, let's try this, At what PRICE is this available ? All Musicans care about sound quality, this is not a new argument. What price is the public willing to pay for supposedly better Musical reproduction ? It's a question I'm asking, not baiting an argument .................

OB I wasnt trying to bait an argument. I was only noting that this new format or whatever it is, is playable on a DVD player. When someone as respected as T Bone Burnett is involved I thought some would be interested. I think we all lknow your pov on CDs and vinyl and my post was not meant to try and change anyones mind.

You may be right that all musicians care about sound quality but the I do not see evidence of that. If they do, then they have let engineers and producers get away with murder. If more influential folks like Neil Young and T Bone Burnett keep trying it can only be better for all of us.

Josh

[JBryan]

The majority of rock musicians (not all certainly) care about $ and girls - mostly in that order. At least that's how it comes across in the interviews. Musicians from other genres still have their hearing and are more likely to be concerned with sound quality but its still not high on their list of priorities. The problem as I see it is that almost nobody buys an album because of its sound quality - there's just so much more interest in the content of the music and the emphasis is on selling the music, not creating the best image and soundstage. Aside for a few real artists on the boards, most engineers try to insert a few tricks to make the tracks appeal to its audience. With Rock and Pop, that means making it sound good through a radio which usually results in high gain on select frequencies and lots of compression. Neither tend to be qualities that translate to exceptional sound quality.

[Islander]

Is this new format the MVI (Music Video Interactive)? They're a new type of DVD, but I'm not sure how they differ from regular DVDs or DVD-A discs. The Donald Fagen Nightfly Trilogy box set contains 3 MVIs plus 3 "bonus" CDs with the same music on them, plus an extra stereo CD. The MVIs are playable on a DVD player or computer and are in Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 stereo and the sound is noticeably better than the CDs.

The first MVI (The Nightfly) is in Advanced Resolution PCM Stereo (48kHz/24-bit), while Kamakiriad and Morph the Cat are in Advanced Resolution PCM Stereo (96kHz/24-bit).

It's starting to look like universal players are the way to go, but maybe they need to have 2 DACs, one optimized for 44.1kHz and its multiples and one optimized for 48kHz and its multiples, to avoid the compromises caused by the extra processing needed to go from one to the other.

If you're familiar with the Neil Young Live at Massey Hall 1971 CD/DVD package, you'll know the DVD sounds much, much, better than the CD.

[oldbuckster]

On a seperate note, I notice that you talk alot about money and the cost of music. If you find the things you want are out of your budget, the solution is to go out and work more/harder/extra to earn more money so you can afford the things you want.

Kimball, Before you make a comment like that, don't you think you should think about it? I cannot work for medical reasons, so I live on a set cash flow, and with the price of gas, and food rising, and my income remaining the same,it's getting so that I may have to cut back on other things like Music. I have given up alot lately, and would like to keep what I have left, but bottom line, Stereo and music may be next .............. So my friend, think about what you say ........... You know nothing about me ............ just alittle insight ......... EH !!

As for Josh, the baiting comment was about me sounding like I was baiting you, Not You baiting me ...............

[Mallette]

Buckster:

If CD's are a strain on your cash flow, I am at a loss why you are so insistent on staying away from LP's. I visited my friend Ron (LoneLobo) last night and he's amassed probably 900 LP's in the past 3 or 4 months for about the same dollars. He played me one Cathy Fink and David Duckworth album that was absolutely incredible artistically as well as technically. It was dead silent. He was playing it on a TT he'd paid 50.00 for and 99 cents for the disk. That was only one of many, many extraordinary sounds he'd dug from the stacks of venerable wax.

Regardless of the argument as to which is superior, there is no debate that LP's are cheap thrills...

While my budget is a bit less strained that most of my life, I still fall philosophically on the "cheap, good sound is better than expensive good sound..." side of things.

Not trying to sell you anything here, just trying to help ensure that music doesn't leave you. This place wouldn't be near as much fun without you!

Dave

[oldbuckster]

Dave, I had over 800 LP's or more when I sold them .............. tics, and pops drive me crazy, always jumping up to flip albums, try this cartridge, try that cartridge, warped records, off- center holes, many reasons why after 30 years I said goodbye, and have never been sorry. My point about price is, everytime the new Next Big Thing comes out it costs more than the media it replaced. The one exception DVD's vs. VHS tapes, I think DVD's on the whole are less expensive than Vhs Tapes used to be. Funny thing about Music, even if I did sell out my gear and Music, there's always the free air Radio waves I could listen to. Funny how good a radio sounds when there is nothing else to use .................. I think my whole point was Clear and loud suggesting I work more to afford what I want, I know he wasn't being mean or a wise-guy, but I can't work, I wish I could. Being on a fixed income with everything going up, except my income, makes it tough. Do I put gas in the car for a Doctors appointment, or buy a CD ? I'll be Fine, turn 60 this year, God willing, got my wife, my kids, and my dog, everything else is icing on the cake .............. Thanks for caring Dave !!!!!!!!!

[Islander]

I find new CDs and LPs to be pretty pricey, too, so I buy used most of the time. Luckily, we have quite a few shops here that have a big selection of used "physical media" music.

[Bill Cain]

Although I enjoy CD's for their compact (no pun intended) form, I have never considered them a superior replacement for vinyl.

I created a duplex system, for DJ'ing, in 1988. So far, 12" 45 singles are the best format I've ever worked with.

Their dynamics blow CD's away.

[Marvel]

So far, 12" 45 singles are the best format I've ever worked with.

Their dynamics blow CD's away.

That isn't a failure of CDs, but a failure of the recording and mastering process.

[LoudnClear]

Buckster,

I'm sorry to hear about your medical issues limiting your capacity to work for money.

Here's an explanation of why I would make such a comment as above. I do believe that there are a ton of ways to make extra money these days, even if one qualifies as disabled and is unable to work in the physical sense. Generally anyone that can operate a computer and internet connection can learn to make money on the internet, based on either buying and selling items, or making Google advertising money by creating a website with useful information, stories or references that alot of people want to use. There's a great many disable people who find a way to contribute to society and make money in exchange. There are also a great many people who throw their arms up and give up when they're told they can't or don't have to work for a living.

Without knowing where you fall along this continuum, I can only wish you the best in your health and happiness. You know what you can and cannot do and what you can and cannot afford. I know which end I'd be on if I lost use of my arms and or legs, I'd still be chasing my dreams.

Never Quit Moving Forward is printed on my DNA.

Kimball

[Bill Cain]

So far, 12" 45 singles are the best format I've ever worked with.

Their dynamics blow CD's away.

That isn't a failure of CDs, but a failure of the recording and mastering process.

I can only comment on my real-world experience; not theoretics.

[Islander]

Without knowing where you fall along this continuum, I can only wish you the best in your health and happiness. You know what you can and cannot do and what you can and cannot afford. I know which end I'd be on if I lost use of my arms and or legs, I'd still be chasing my dreams.

Kimball, you seem to have the best of intentions, but we know very little of other forum members' personal situations. Even when you know someone on a face-to-face basis, what is practical for someone to do is best known to them and not to someone observing them.

As for what you'd do in the case of suffering a life-changing injury or disease, it's impossible to say what you would do or think until it happens to you. You might pursue your dreams, find new dreams, or go in a direction you'd never thought of.