Manuel Delaflor Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Im considering their C350 or C370 Integrated Amplifiers. How are they compared to the "real stuff" like Bryston? The low prices on NAD's means consumer market quality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 NAD is generally well thought of in most circles. If by "consumer market quality" you mean stuff you get at KMart (oops, should have said Used to be able to get at KMart... ), or Radio Shack, or WalMart or something, definately cut above. If you mean stuff like Yamaha or Techniques or Pioneer, NAD (for the same dollar level) is usually more power less bells and whistles. If you mean Adcom or Creek or Arcam or Rotel, same church different pew. NAD has a "house sound" that may or may not float your boat. Listen prior to purchase. I have had reliability problems with (admitidly very small sample population) the NAD stuff I've owned - integrated amp popped power supply, not easy to fix, but I seem to be an odd man out, there... they have a good reputation. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Ray, Good to see you out and about. Did you sell the La Scalas? And if so, are you using the CF-4's now? I hope you aren't going without... Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 La Scalas will be in route to their new home in NY this weekend. Sold CF4 last week. Am selling Sony VAIO laptop, Adcom GDA600, Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro original series with upgraded power supply, couple of Thorens turntables with Ortofon and Grado Platinum cartridges, miscellaneous other bits and pieces when I get around to posting them on EBay. Am now listening to either my KG4 or Sennheiser HD600 depending upon time of day, music and general level of depression. Life goes on... ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Good to see you Ray, I had the NAD and think they are good for the money, if you like the Bryston: The Audio Source Amp One/A is said to sound exactly the same ($ensible Sound, Nov/Dec 01, #88) for 1/2 the price as the very well regarded Bryston 3B-ST. The 3B-ST is a "can't miss" amp. It is known to deliver AMAZING bass and have a nice midrange with excellent transparency. The $300 amp performs exactly the same as the Bryston and line level comparisons could find no difference between the two They "sounded identical to each other." The 4B-ST is a better amp but those come in around $1500 used. But these are "can't miss" choices if you want solid state. The B-60 Integrated is also good. This little unit can be had around $900 or so. The "ST" series is an improvement over the standard and worth the extra money. ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Colin, I was investigating these two amps online, from the looks of comparing pictures of the two, you wouldn't think the Audiosource One would have a chance against a Bryston 3B-T. The Audiosource looks so much cheaper, from the looks of the unit. This would be a listening test I would like to participate in, against these two amps. I guess sometimes those pretty heatsinks and extra weight don't make a difference. My NAD has dried out capacitors, wiped out transitor tolerances, and idles/runs way too hot, but it still works! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted January 23, 2002 Author Share Posted January 23, 2002 Colin, I do want to believe that review about the AudioSource. But of course I have my reserves on that. I have read the reviews on audioreview.com Granted, you can't trust everything you read in there, but as I can't read the $ensible Sound mag either I have to keep searching for more reviews. Why do you trust their review? can you tell me more details on how do they test? do they publish also graphs or side by side results? Thanks, so far Im really considering either NAD or AudioSource. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 A tube integrated amp is SOOOO much better...I cant stress this enough. But of all those suggestions, the Bryston B-60 is the best deal, especially if he was looking for an integrated. That (used) would smoke the NAD for lunch. I have had more NAD amps then sense over the years! Great little amps but surely not the lext level if you have the ducats to venture there. I still think the Bryston sound like solid state, even the good ones. The 4B-ST is an amp I am quite familiar with and, although nice, still does not flesh out the harmonics... I take it tubes are out of the question? Below are some good SS Used deals: 1A. Any good Tube Integrated followed by 1. Bryston B-60 2. YBA Integre Dual Mono 3. Audio Refinement Complete 4. Musical Fidelity A300 5. Audio Analog Puccini SE 6. Creek, NAD, Cambridge Audio, etc Actually, the little NAD are a neat little amp for the money. I just think it is worth spending a bit more as the sound difference would be noticable. More quiet between notes, articulation, treble extension, tight bass... But to be honest, the tube integrated walks over the standard low to medium cost solid state amp with such ease, it is almost no contest. Literally. Personally, I think you would agree, even if totally in the SS camp. kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-24-2002 at 11:22 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted January 24, 2002 Author Share Posted January 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by mobile homeless: "A tube integrated amp is SOOOO much better...I cant stress this enough." "I take it tubes are out of the question?" "But to be honest, the tube integrated walks over the standard low to medium cost solid state amp with such ease, it is almost no contest. Literally. Personally, I think you would agree, even if totally in the SS camp." You need to illustrate me a little. Can you mention a few options on tube integrated amps in good price? (no more than $500). Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 I heard a ugly Fisher tube receiver for $40 sound much better on some big old Klipsch Khorns than a monster Citation SS amp (at Atma-sphere Music in MN) years ago. I recently heard the mighty Pass X250 on my big old Cornwalls. Then I listened to the small but solid ASL Wave 8s on my horns. The Wave *s rock! They love drums and piano. They have snap and pop. No they are not as refined or smooth as the incredible Pass amp, but they cost 1/100th of the X250 also! For a mere $99 per channel, they instantly give you all of the qualities that tubes are known for. If you have super-efficient speakers (95 dB/w/m), you really should audition tube equipment on them. Since I like the sound that horns make when powered by tubes, I would look at the small crop of low cost tube integrated amps, for which ASL and Jolida come to mind. Check out the Antique Sound Lab MG-SI15DT Single Ended Integrated Tube Amplifier at: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_1/antique-sound-lab-15dt-tube-amp-1-2001.html. The editor said, "But, view it this way. The 15DT is an entry level tube product, at an entry-level price, but is Class A and single-ended, which are two characteristics that tubophiles love. It's a bargain." Otherwise, I would look at Jolida tube integrated amps for use with your super efficient horns: Use Audioreview.com to check out the Jolida reviews. Find the amps at the Jolida site and http://www.newtube.com/jolida.html. Your system will sound so sweet and engaging that you will enjoy it for years. Like someone said on another post, you listen to the music, not the sound. ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 A little note here though. I have heard from a pretty reliable source that would know, that some of the ASL products can be a problematic build-wise with quality control. They are neat designs for the money but might need service more often than not. This is not a total damning of the company, just something to keep in mind as this was shared with me from someone that would know. The little AV8 is a neat amp, especially for the money. Then again, I actually think some of the vintage designs, brought up to spec and good shape, to sound better than a host of the modern tube gear. The AV8 is not a giant killer but amazing for the price! Colin mentioned the Jolida. I owned a Jolida 302B which was a commendable EL-34 integrated that used a passive volume control. It is a good deal used, not new. And it responds VERY well to simple mods. Another neat integrated this is beautiful to boot, is the original Jadis Orchestra, which I saw go for under $900 used the other day. Doesnt come up as much used and price can be high, but occasionaly they come down to earth. Another forum member just got a Conrad Johnson CAV-50 which is a great tube integrated as well. And the price is coming down to earth. You cant get a separate preamp and amp and interconnects for the near the cost of this integrated amp. Audio Note makes a few cool parallel SET integrateds but the tubes are all covered! Carndinal sin #1!!!! These can be had below $1000 though. And the ASL integrated are so inexpensive, that it might be worth a chance. Once you got the bugs out and if you got a good model. Still, a proper EL-84 EICO, Scott, Fisher will sound better than most of the modern integrated tube offerings. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-24-2002 at 02:44 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted January 25, 2002 Author Share Posted January 25, 2002 Colin and Mobile, Thanks for your imputs on Tube amplifiers. I will need to hear some of them soon, you really put me to think about their sound qualities, specially when the Heritage line is used (I own a pair of Heresy's). One question remains, can I attach a sub to a tube amplifier? Because My Heresy's sound great, but they are "helped" by a KSW12, and I don't want to lose the sub, in fact, what I want is to add a bigger sub! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 You could wire the sub in a manner similar to Bi-Wiring speakers. You would combine two sets of speaker wires for Left & Right terminals, then connect them to the speaker terminals on the amp/receiver end. One set of the other ends (L/R's) connected to your Heresies, the second set of wires would connect to the Sub's "Speaker In" (L/R) terminals. Not sure if this would raise an impedance issue for some tube amps/receivers. Should be no significant current drawn, because powered subs provide their own amplification. Some others may comment on any possible impedance/current issues. My Fisher 800-B tube receiver has an RCA output for connecting a Center Speaker. A sub could easily be connected the old Fisher using a cable with RCA connections. I would definitely keep my cable lengths to the shortest runs possible. To get the maximum low bass, set your crossover to max setting. Wes ------------------ "KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f> This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 01-26-2002 at 07:37 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted January 30, 2002 Author Share Posted January 30, 2002 quote: Originally posted by ShapeShifter: Not sure if this would raise an impedance issue for some tube amps/receivers. Yes, is a good question. Any of the tube lovers care to answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted January 30, 2002 Author Share Posted January 30, 2002 quote: Originally posted by mdeneen: Integrated tube amps are pretty limiting in configuring your system. I see no advantage or reason to get them when you are going to be messing with subs and all that. I have a pair of Heresy's and a KSW12 (soon to be replaced with a SVS or HSU). I drive them all with an old Technics 30wpc integrated amplfier wich have two "tape rec outs" on which I connect the subwoofer. The sound is simply beautiful. It sounds a lot better than my friends equipments (B&W's, NHT's, Mirage's coupled with much more expensive SS amplfiers) at least to my ears (all that matters). But I wonder if I can improve the sound with a tube amplifier, just for curiosity and in the never ending desire to improve my system. On the bass side, my KSW12 can reach in my room around the 26Hz anounced, but without authority, and I want something that extend the lows to around 20Hz with solid amounts of bass. I use my system mainly for classical music listening and I can't imagine to hear it without authoritative bass to at least 30Hz, so the use of a subwoofer is an absolute requirement (with my current speakers of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Jolida makes a "sub out" on many of their integrated amplifiers, including the 302B, a very nice EL-34 amp used (in the $500 range). Many of the used version floating about have option included. You can even send it to the factory for them to add a sub out at very minimal cost (It's just another output). Although I agree with mdeneen that the integrated can be limiting in some ways, I find it a great compromise in a tube amp (I have separates and integrateds). I love the separate route and use it but the tube integrated is a great way to get into tubes with far less investment with much of the sound. Besides, ole mdeneen is VERY prejudiced against most modern pieces of gear besides digital where old is definitely not better (c'mon mdenne...you know it's true). I love the vintage route, but many dont want the chance, nor have any love affair with thy soldering iron, something that comes in very handy with vintage equipment. I am having a hard time keeping up with mdeneen's views... To solder or not to solder, that is the question. Ok, in all fairness, I happen to agree with him on the value and excellence of vintage tube pieces. The damn transformers on even the stock vintage gear competes with iron on the top brands now...and sort of obliterates the mid-fi tube trappings. Still..... it's nice to not have to worry about some things. I used to frown completely on the integrated until I realized I was throwing away a large segment of great sound. I have since had a number of GREAT integrated flow through here, both vintage and modern. Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-30-2002 at 11:54 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Colin: I heard a ugly Fisher tube receiver for $40 sound much better on some big old Klipsch Khorns than a monster Citation SS amp (at Atma-sphere Music in MN) years ago. Hey Colin...here's my ugly old Fisher 800-B minus its walnut cabinet. The big beast still makes good music. Got to have a spring cleaning sale and move some of this old gear. Wes ------------------ "KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f> This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 01-31-2002 at 08:14 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 Youre right, "prejudice" does have some rather ugly connotations. Biased? Audio Research? LORD! Not you too, mdeneen!!! I rank ye olde Audio Research as the crowning moment of solid state tube sound. Some of their pieces are ok...but for the most part, they rely on ye olde 6550 which is about as refined a sounding tube as a Petebilt Truck on a fine country road....DIRT ROAD. You dont strike me as the Audio Research type. That is probably the most "HIFI" sounding brand of tube amps I can think of. Say it aint so, mdeneen! Say it aint so! heh.... kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-31-2002 at 11:42 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 I agree with you 1000% on the system aspect and it is one of the most overlooked parameters after room interaction! That's why when I get requests for system help, it is not that easy as you have to find the right mix, taking into account music, bias, room interaction, perception, and of course, component interaction, which is an art (and science to an extent). We will also agree on the preamp issue in certain ways. I think the preamp is one of THE most important components in a system, since the signal levels are so low, it is so easy to muck up the entire system with a sorry preamp. IT is perhaps one of the most overlooked components. Indeed, I said this TO YOU specifically when talking about the preamp section built into the Monarchy Dac unit, something I cautioned you about. The passive vs active idea is an interesting one and there are so many variables. Alas, The PREAMP is VERY important. Of course, we then completely shift on preamp selection as I generally have NOT liked the Audio Research preamps at all... The SP-6 and the SP-8 were good sounding, more or less. And they ALL got better (most of the time) as they upgraded to MkII, MkIII etc status. But many of their units, such as the bright as a bastard SP-9, were unlistenable to me. I had a few in my system and attempted to live with the SP-9 for about three months before I gave up. So many of the Audio Reseach preamps sounds bleached in the harmonics with a whitish nature to the sound... I have never really like the presentation. AGain, too HIFI. Some were better than others as I said. But whre Conrad Johnson might have erred to the lush side, the Audio Research preamps were like sonic lightning...and could be fatiguing as a bastard. I just have not been a big fan of theirs. I tended to like the Conrad Johnson approach of those two...even though some might call that too tube-like and colored. I found it easier to live with than the Audio Research approach. Which brings me to preamps in most of these modern integrateds. Most of them employ simple PASSIVE devices which are an ok compromise, especially if done IN THE UNIT. Something like the EICO is a class A all triode preamp that is actually quite refined. AMps like the CJ CAV50 is literally a version of the CJ-PV10L mated with the MV-55 amp. I personally think the preamp is the HEART of the system but think that a passive control, or a properlu designed integrated section can do OK these days, especially if under cost contraints. OF course, almost NONE of these units come with a phono. By the way, I have like this 20 paragraph post that was festering in response to your idea of Science and politics ... and the idea of how science, in this instance, can actually shut the brain down. But I am going to have to mail the beast to you as an attached document, out of respect for hte masses here, that would rather take their own eyes out then gaze at a epic post of that nature.... Indeed. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-31-2002 at 03:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 Ye olde Room. OF course, I have one of the most hard to deal with rooms on the planet in some ways...it is quite amazing I get good sound out of here at all... EVen I am shocked. As for the raise of discourse, I dont think anyone on here would ever accuse me of relying the on a simple "my apple tastes better than yours" response. Indeed, I have heard from a few that WISH that was ALL I wrote! heh... Of course, a well-placed barb is always an amusing side. ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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