wuzzzer Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Man, this is getting somewhat frustrating. To my ears after having my Rotel pre-amp the sound from my Fortes seemed very laid back, upper midrange and treble seemed to be very lacking. Even my wife commented that she thought it didn't sound as good as it used to. Almost muffled to an extent. I thought that it was the pre-amp and I decided to get rid of my Rotel pre-amp and power amp to replace it with the Onkyo TX-SR805 receiver that I just got on Thursday. Well, it opened up the top end very, very slightly but not nearly as much as I remember it when I had my harman/kardon HK3480 integrated amp. I did also install Bob Crites' crossovers around the same time as I got the Rotel combo. The crossovers were installed before the Rotel pre-amp was added and I remember that using the h/k as a pre-amp and the Rotel power amp sounded really nice. So, what the heck is going on? Acoustic guitars, cymbals, etc just don't have that same bite as they used to. I thought of replacing the tweeter diaphragms with Bob's titanium ones but I don't want to throw good money after bad if it isn't going to help. I forgot to add that I do have a fair amount of acoustic foam in the rear corners and front corners of the room that my system is in. That's been up for a while, though. However, I wonder if the adjustments I've made to my system that have been designed to smooth the frequency response of the speakers and I wonder if the acoustic foam is now a hindrance rather than a help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Did you wire the Crossovers correctly ? Do you still have the HK ? I'll bet it's not the crossovers ............. you need to try other power units, just to rule it out .............. and remove the acoustic foam ..... check all the free stuff you can ............ all I know is I've never heard a Home Theatre Receiver that makes 2 channel sound as good as true 2 channel does, close, but no cookie !!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 I don't think its the crossovers because I installed them when I still had the H/K receiver as a pre-amp and was using my Rotel power amp. I don't have the H/K anymore. Things seemed fine back then. I took my time and made sure I installed the crossovers correctly because I didn't want to have to open the speakers up again and mess around inside. The thing that frustrates me is that the sound I have now with the Onkyo is pretty much the same as with the Rotel pre-amp and amp. When I integrated the Rotel pre-amp into my system I immediately thought that it didn't sound quite right. Its not horrible, its just lacking in dynamics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Do any of your friends have another power unit you could try ? or, maybe the Onkyo just doesn't suit your needs ... if anything, you should be blown away bye the new crossovers, or atleast happy you did them .......... RELAX, you'll sort it out ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryO Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Check out your connections. Simple but fairly common. I was changing around a lot of gear lately and broke the inner connections in my AQ Diamondbacks cables. I'd lost a lot of the "sparkle" and depth of the speakers. I switched cables and the excellent sound came back. I removed the ends and resoldered the connections and the cables were resurrected. If you've got another set of cables laying around you might give it a try. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 To my ears after having my Rotel pre-amp the sound from my Fortes seemed very laid back, upper midrange and treble seemed to be very lacking. Even my wife commented that she thought it didn't sound as good as it used to. Almost muffled to an extent. I forgot to add that I do have a fair amount of acoustic foam in the rear corners and front corners of the room that my system is in. That's been up for a while, though. However, I wonder if the adjustments I've made to my system that have been designed to smooth the frequency response of the speakers and I wonder if the acoustic foam is now a hindrance rather than a help. .......................................................................................................................... The amount and placement of the acoustic foam can definitly cause the problems you notice (especially the laid back muffled sound). If it's easy for you to remove the foam I would suggest you remove it temporarly and see if the life and dynamics and tonal balance come back. My experience is, foam and other types of absorbitive acoustical panels should be used only were necessary which means identifying what is wrong with the sound first and treating this accordingly. Most home listening rooms can be easily overdamped in the mid and high frequency ranges and diffusion is much more beneficial than absorption in many rooms for mid and high frequency problems. Also remember Klipsch speakers because they use horns for the mid and high frequencies disperse their sound in a room differently than a wide dispersion type speaker so often what you see advertised as good placement for acoustical panels might not be appropriate for a Klipsch system and can actually be detrimental to the sound. mike tn[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 Alright, I've made an improvement! I had run the Audyssey automatic setup with the microphone thingy and when I went in and checked the settings it was attenuating the front speakers by 12dB and the subwoofer by 15dB. I adjusted everything so that they were at 0dB. HOLY COW - HUGE improvement. Before I had the volume at -5.0dB on the receiver and it still wasn't very loud. I then went in and disabled the equalizer settings that Audyssey had made and ran everything completely flat. Unfortunately with Audyssey you can't see exactly what changes it made to the bass, midrange and treble. Again - HUGE improvement. I boosted the 6300Hz by 2dB and the 16000Hz by 2dB and it sounded even better to my ears. Apparently Audyssey doesn't like the sound of Klipsch speakers because it must have decreased the upper midrange and treble. I think the next step is to get rid of the acoustic foam. I had originally put it up as more of a bass absorbing system but I think its absorbing more high frequencies than it is bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Take your time, read the owners manual, although I find mine very confusing, you'll get it. You know it's not the speakers ................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Did you wire the Crossovers correctly ? Do you still have the HK ? I'll bet it's not the crossovers ............. you need to try other power units, just to rule it out .............. and remove the acoustic foam ..... check all the free stuff you can ............ all I know is I've never heard a Home Theatre Receiver that makes 2 channel sound as good as true 2 channel does, close, but no cookie !!!!!! Receiver maybe, but the Sunfire HT preamp has an analog bypass that lets you run straight through to your amp. So far I like it better for 2 channel than for HT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Did you rerun Audyssey after you changed the crossover? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Well it's Monday, where are you with your dynamics ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 The HK was a stereo receiver,the latter are avr's,the HK is gonna sound better everytime,imo.The fact you think the 805 sounds as good as the Rotel said something,idunno what.My old 1068 was a light year ahead of my 805 for music,as is the lmc1.As mentioned,do all the free stuff but few avrs can sound like a stereo receiver,or integrated imo.You'll sort it out,good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted July 7, 2008 Author Share Posted July 7, 2008 Last night I took all the acoustic foam down in the room. I had originally put it up when I had my RF-7s. It was a cheap fix to tame their highs due to the system components I was running at the time. Well, apparently it was a little overkill for the Fortes especially since installing Bob's crossovers that smooth everything out themselves. I went into the receiver's menu and adjusted everything to my liking. We watched a couple movies last night, 2 Fast 2 Furious and also Shrek 3. Now we're talking! I guess it seems to me that some Blu-Ray movies in particular are a little lacking in the high end compared to standard DVDs. I guess its all in the recording/mix of the movie. I get all my Blu-Ray movies through NetFlix so I'm going to get a couple that I already watched and give them another try. I also put in an audio CD and listened and things sounded quite a bit better. I watched the Eagles Farewell HD-DVD and had it BLASTING and it sounded unbelievable. I think a person's audio memory can be tricky at times. I guess everything seems to be good now. The stereo performance is definitely not what my H/K integrated was or what the Rotel combo was. It doesn't sound bad, there just doesn't seem to be as much stereo separation going on. For home theater though, this thing is crazy. My sub never sounded so good. I can't wait to add a pair of rear speakers - hopefully within the next week or so! So let's see...I had the Rotel combo since around March of this year I believe? So I guess that means I'll be shopping for a new reciever/amp/etc around October then? [A] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 So I guess that means I'll be shopping for a new reciever/amp/etc around October then? Nah, you'll be ready for some tubes by then ....... (Think Scott, Dynaco, Eico, Fisher) ......... dam voices ..... EH !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 So I guess that means I'll be shopping for a new reciever/amp/etc around October then? Nah, you'll be ready for some tubes by then ....... (Think Scott, Dynaco, Eico, Fisher) ......... dam voices ..... EH !!! I think oldbuckster hit the nail on the head! I vote for the Eico! By virtue of its reputation. And I recently saw a schematic of its power supply and noticed that the output stage runs right off the rectifier something that I don't see to often. This how the Eico generates a very good jump factor! I once had a hunch with my buddies Pilot amp that had a 100 ohm resistor in the power path its purpose of course was to get rid of noise but as I found that has a cost and even chokes do to! Anyway I took the resistor out and wired it just like the Eico ( this can be done because push-pull cancels noise anyway) we listened! He looked at me I looked at him he said to me "if it gets any better I'm going to cream my pants" Heres that amp that was an Integreated Pilot that needed to much restoration to its front end. I saw a simply EL84 power amp with enough sensitivity to run CD direct or use a preamp if one wants. So for 500$ including the amp a few new parts and a little elbow work it was restored. Its just a walnut wood skirt and a custom cut brass top from a local metal shop. The same can be done with a lot of vintage amps. It only takes a friend with a few skills to help out as I helped my buddy with his here. Just something to think about! SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Hey Mark, are you sure you hooked up the crossover correctly? And are you sure the crossover is working as intended? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted July 8, 2008 Author Share Posted July 8, 2008 Hey Mark, are you sure you hooked up the crossover correctly? And are you sure the crossover is working as intended? I can double check to make sure. I really took my time installing them though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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