C-7 vs. RC-7?

[onemike]

Hello!

I just want to know if some of you have any ideas about the centerspeakers KLF C-7 and the new RC-7? Which one do you guys outthere prefere and why, would be nice to hear your input in this matter. Regards, Mike!

[Seb]

choose your center according to what mains you have.

if you have RF-7s as mains, the RC-7 is the way to go, but if you're using Legends, then go for the KLF-C7. remember that the RF-5 and Rf-3 match up with the RC-5.

as to differences between them, I find Legends in general to have more punch than the Ref line, but they are lacking in accuracy and finesse, and sound harsher IMO.

[HornEd]

Hey, Seb, nice to see your still giving quality advice. BUT... nothing beats a Legend center speaker for a Legend Rig... and my C-7 gathering dust is proof thereof.

Remember, upwards of 75% of the sound on a 5.1 DVD comes through the center speaker. Having anything less than your main speakers as a center brings serious denigration of your system's potential.

Having six KLF-30's, I replaced the motor board (where the speakers are attached) in one and hoisted it atop my 65" Mitsu HDTV. The sound is so good, the speech so clear, that I have been enjoying old and new DVD's rather than surf the net!

Building the motor board was not that difficult. Lowe's has the best 3/4" MDF for my money... less than $20 a sheet. Use the old motor board for a pattern. Cut the new board to size. Find the horizontal center of the new board and lay the old board on it vertically with the horn tweeter & exponential horn openings centered horizontally and vertically. Mark both holes and the old board edges on the new board. Next, line up the old board's edge with the edge mark and center the woofer hole. Mark it. Move to the other side of the exponential and tweeter holes, line up the old board to the edge mark and trace and mark the second woofer hole. Cut the holes out with a jig saw and then use a router to finish the lip. Where a dust mask when working with MDF. Give them a couple of coats of matte black and re-glue the new board in the old speaker. Klipsch recommended "Liquid Nails" for the glue. Oh, a tip on initially removing the old board. There is a rubber mallet called the "Dead Head" (due to its diminished rebound)which made short work of tapping out the old board once the speakers had been removed. Oh, yes, and all the wires are just the right length for the new motor board.

As I said last year on this forum, there is no substitute for having a 6.1 system with all the same speakers set to "SMALL" and a quality subwoofer to handle the chores between 20Hz and 90Hz... and that cuts out the problems of putting too many long waves into the room from too many different locations.

This technique also allows the closest broad spectrum timbre matching I have yet encountered.

5.1 and 6.1 (7.1 is only worthwhile in VERY large rooms) sound sources beg for your center channel to be your best speaker... and then try to match it with the best you can afford... not the other way around!

I also prefer to mount the same speaker as my mains for surrounds... having them face each other about a foot behind your head in the ideal listening position. And then another of the same speakers in the middle of the back of the room. Be sure to calibrate them all with an RS SPL... Has anyone found anything better than the outdated Video Essentials set-up disc?

Personally, I like to tuck my mains up close to the Widescreen TV and use Front Effects speakers mounted six feet high about twelve or more feet apart. Front Effects speakers are more the "aural cue" variety and may be smaller and of different timbre than the main speakers. You will enjoy movies more with the left and right sound close to the action on the screen... and the Front Effects allow for that big theater ambiance.

Oh, yeah, for any newbies... do save a few bucks for a quality sub as Seb advises.

I MY KLIPSCH SYSTEMS... HornEd

PS: For the new "cerametallic cone heads" among you, try building a system with 6 RC-7's and a good sub-woofer... not as horny but an altogether sound performance.

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"Where Legends Live! Klipsch Powered HT"

FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 Center, KLF 30 Mains, Klipsch SB2's Front Effects

BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 L&R Side/Surrounds, KLF 30 Rear Effects

LARGE MOUTH BASS:

Twin SVS CS-Ultra sub with Samson Megawatt Amp

SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Toshiba Pro Scan 6200, Toshiba Pro 6-head SVHS W808

and such... Tweakin' On!

Music Respite Room: Cornwalls & SVS 16-46

Klipsched Motor Home: Still trying to get it right.

This message has been edited by HornEd on 01-29-2002 at 02:26 PM

[fini]

May I be the first (here) to say "WECOME BACK, O HORNED ONE!" You've been missed! How's Mom? Hope all's well!

fini

[HornEd]

Thanks, and hello again to the rest of the regulars. Mom's fine. She is having an extended visit to San Antonio where both my motor board building son and favorite ex-wife (a nurse practioner)live.

They are giving me a break to see if the docs could improve my health. I have been spending time in the motorhome wandering about taking digital photos of kite surfing and hang gliding.

Unfortunately, my new cell phone system won't let me on the net. I am sorting out an answer to that problem... but if anyone has any ideas, let me know. I am on AT&T wireless.

I'll try to keep in better contact. It's nice to be remembered. Thanks again. HornEd

[Mike Lindsey]

HornEd,

Glad to see you are alive and well. I was just thinking of you today and was wondering how you were getting along. The board hasn't quite been the same without you...

Mike

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My Music Systems

[Seb]

HornEd!!! The LEGEND himself (pun definitely intended)!! Man is it glad to see you after all this time... Glad i got back on this forum! How are you doing?

As to the KLF-C7 advice, I was simply sticking to the question asked. Of course, all of us would like a big KLF-30-based center speaker, but it isn't always practical, cost- or room-wise...

And defnitely build a home theater system on a solid bass fondation. The best and most market improvement in my system was definitely the sub, and even though I'm kind of a bass-head, I know everyone loves the rumbling action of a good sub. Home theater without a sub simply isn't the same.

A question for you, HornEd, have you ever tried separate amplification for your great speakers? I am probably getting RF-7s and and RC-7 soon, but I'm still torn between sticking with my Sony DB receiver for now, going all-out and buying a Denon 4802, buying a separate amp for now, and maybe the 3802 down the road, or any combination of those... I know the Legends aren't the same as the new Ref series, but they're still super-efficient Klipsch, and I trust your ear. So what do you think? Separates or receiver? And do I need a 4802 or can I live with the Sony for a while?

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'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

[boa12]

Hello HornEd! Great to see u again! You have truely been missed here - many posts wondering on your whereabouts. Welcome Back!

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My Home Systems Page

[HornEd]

Thanks for your comments guys...

The doc's say only living "legends" can enjoy Klipsch Legends... so I guess that means you not only need ears... but you also gotta have heart. They are working on mine.

Boa, as a fellow Cornwall and KLF-30 booster, I'd like to offer a suggestion. Find a KLF-30 and reconfigure the motor board to sit horizontally. Use it as a base to set you TV on, if necessary. But, I promise you that your movie experience will go up higher than adding a 2nd HGS! In fact the key speakers in any HT set up are a great center speaker and a great subwoofer. All the other speakers (including the so called "mains") should be considered as accessory speakers.

Seb, I can agree with you to a point. It isn't always easy to find KLF-30's let alone at a good price. The materials I used for the conversion cost under $10 and took about two-and-a-half hours to complete... not counting letting the paint dry. When I went to pick up an 4'x8' sheet of MDF, a lady asked me if 3/4" MDF would be good for shelves. I said yes, and she said that the whole sheet was too much and asked if I would split one with her. So I got enough for converting a KLF-30 and a KLF-10 for $6. IMHO, I would say that the improvement in overall HT much more than justifies the trouble and expense. It has taught me the lesson that for HT 5.1, and above, my first audio concern will be for a truly decent center speaker.

If you guys remember, BobG once commented to me on this forum that you can mount a RC-7 horizontally or vertically... and, thus, one could have an updated system similar to mine by using six RC-7's. In fact, if I were not so satisfied with what I have now, I might just do that.

I was happy with my C-7 for a long time but as soon as I plugged in the KLF-30"C"... my theory became reality and the regret of not having done it sooner set in. I don't think there will be any going back.

Well, I am glad to see you two are doing your usual best efforts with the forum. It is good to see your thoughts on the screen again.

Bent but not broken...

HornEd

[HornEd]

Seb, I meant to answer your question in the above post. I guess I need to upgrade my organic receiver! In my younger days, there was no question, separate amps were the only way to go for the ultimate musical enjoyment. I suspect that is still true. BUT, all the convenience, economy, cleaner power, and integration that are built into the upper level receivers certainly swayed me the last time around.

Also, in that case, I was building an HT system for my 94 year-old mother to enjoy. I used Klipsch Legends because they produce a better sound spectrum to compensate for older ears. Since the Legends are so efficient, the option to drive them as loud as mother would like could easily be obtained from a receiver.

So the question then becomes, how important is the utmost level of sound enjoyment as compared with the value of Canadian currency in your pocket. I would probably opt for the receiver and then add inline amps to your three primary speakers (CMain, LMain, RMain) as time and circumstance permit.

It is funny you should ask, because I am designing a new living space and that is one of my questions. As I get time to sort through it, I'll let you know my latest thoughts.

I think if I were in your shoes, I'd hang on to the Sony a bit longer and see what's coming down the pike for mid-year. The economic climate looks like some high tech market stimulation is required. Market share may become a survival issue and I would not be surprised to see some movement in the receiver area.

Sorry, Seb, you deserved a better answer but I need to reload. More later. HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 01-29-2002 at 05:09 PM

[Guest BobG]

HornEd, it's great to have you back in the fold(ed horn)!

You won't believe what's been going on here in your absense. Lots of sniping and vitriol. Whatever you do, don't leave us again. There's lots of threads here that need the voice of reason and if you should need a hobby beyond your love of listening, we would all benefit from your diplomatic input.

In any case, thanks for making a reappearance. I wish you well and hope to count on your ongoing participation. Cheers!

[HornEd]

Mike, didn't mean to skip over you... must be the arrhythmias. You, know, I was thinking of you too. I wondered why you picked the sticks as your symbol on this forum.

My dad received a U.S. Patent for a golf invention. But, spending so much of my early youth caddying as he hacked around the areas finest courses smothered my enthusiasm for the game. Later on, in Europe, I took it up... and then laid it down. Strictly a talent issue.

I do enjoy watching the Tiger and all those who give him a run for it though... and listening to Ken Venturi (who is from our area). He knew my dad but looked as the thing that made the golf cart wheels turn.

Anyhow... it is good to see your symbol as I try to catch up on the Forum.

Fore! HornEd... alive and trying to be... well?

This message has been edited by HornEd on 01-30-2002 at 05:20 AM

[Mike Lindsey]

HornEd,

Like Klipsch speakers and Corvettes, I have a very big passion for the game of golf. I lived in the DC area for 20 years and moved to Florida last March, so that I could be close to my mother. But I knew I could play with my Corvette, and my golf sticks all year round too. I'm lucky at the moment because I work out of my house and this allows me to get out a couple times a week. Like everything else, I'm decent but there's always someone better. I'm playing to a 5 handicap at the moment so I can't complain.

Look forward to seeing you out here again,

Mike

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My Music Systems

[HornEd]

Thanks for the kind words, BobG. While we are not always in lockstep with one another, you know I do appreciate your expertise, your commitment to keep this an open forum even at the expense of an occasional "foul bawl" or a self-serving "look ma I'm on the Internet" comment.

Of course, after two thousand or so posts, even those people find that what ever they say, the same right questions and the same wrong answers will be popping up in a week or two. That's part of why I made the effort to catch up on my Klipsch Klatch. I feel a little guilty reiterating some of my theories... but then I realize I haven't been booed of the forum yet... and maybe there are some folks who can benefit for my meandering ways down the sonic side of life's path.

BobG., I know this is not the place for you to share the secret future of Klipsch et al... but it would really seem that the times they are a'changing. I find 6.1 sound to be very satisfying (I find 7.1 adds little given current mixing metaphors)... particularly with the addition of front effects speakers. To me, that puts far more stress on having a genuine, robust center speaker. I realize that not everyone has the latitude of putting a horizontalized KLF-30 atop their TV, but I must say it makes a stunning difference.

I am glad that Klipsch found in its wisdom the formula for building the RC-7 into such a formidable speaker, and can only help that the trend will continue to bigger and better center speakers... as long as the majority of the sound will be coming through it until the way they mix movies shifts again.

I am glad they gave you an extra star so I can believe once again there IS life beyond the "no life" status. Be well... the somewhat folded HornEd

[boa12]

<= Yes Ed they did add another level for we posters. Something to shoot for beyond no life. But then with this title you can't ask any questions.

Until i get a new house to better compliment my equipment, i have no space for anymore big stuff. did manange to find a place (above the fireplace) for another C7 as a rear center for 6.1. did get some new smaller stuff. please see my link below.

ed, god's speed and...Rock On!

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My Home Systems Page

[speedbump]

Ed,

Add me to the long list of folks who are glad to see you back. I have not been posting as often, as the board has deteriorated some as BobG mentioned. I seem to have hit the end of the upgrade path for my HT system for now, but I may need some advice on setting up the new system for baby 'bump....little tiny Klipsch to play nursery rhymes on

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Klipsch Chorus I Mains

Klipsch Academy Center

Klipsch Forte II surrounds

Marantz SR19EX Receiver

Yamaha 5 CD Changer

Mitsubishi WS-55807 55" HDTV

Playstation 2 for games/DVD

[Seb]

HornEd, very interesting what you say about the RC-7... In your opinion, would I be better off getting 3 RC-7s and spending the rest on, say, external amplification, more subwoofin', or put it aside for a decent TV? Or are the RF-7s going to give me so much more performance for music and ht that it's still worth getting them?

If it was strictly for ht, and given the current state of affairs where most receivers adhere to the small speakers-oriented THX standard 80Hz crossover, I would have no problems saving my dough and going for the RC-7s, but I find myself listening to music more and more, and RF-7s seem to me like they would definitely be superior to the smaller RC-7s, no?

Sorry if I'm being tiring to you, oh HornEd one, but I can't avoid plunging my bucket in your well of knowledge and experience...

[TheEAR]

HornEd,

Welcome back,good to see you back in the mix.As always a great read,your posts are very interesting.

I now have two pairs of RF-7's at home(the second one borrowed for a week).I am very impressed with the HT performance of the four RF-7 speakers and my RC-7 works great for vocals...I would prefer an RC center with two 10" mid bass drivers(yeah this center would be BIG).

The new 1.75" compression tweeters are not too rolled off and all the movies I threw at them sound fantastic.

Serious impact and good detail!I am using an ATI 2505(also used the 1505 and could not notice any change in sound).

Large KLF or large R series are awesome HT speakers for sure.LIVE describe them best

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[HornEd]

Well, Seb, your call to candor has dredged up my bottom line opinion of the Ref 7 family... and the issues are space, ambient preference and "mutilation."

Apparently, to gain market share a manufacturer must take a "Bose Dive" and build smaller "aesthetic" boxes with bigger "polished" sound. As TheEar(s) correctly noted, the live sound of the more massive KLF-30's suit my movie situation and I have the Cornwell based rig downstairs in my office/den for music.

Although, frankly, music videos such as "The Wall," "Hell Freezes Over," and "View From The Vault" really rock in the upstairs HT. And I also roll along with every great classical and organ piece I can find. While it is somewhat different between the upstairs and downstairs systems, I would be hard pressed to say which is better for music... it really depends upon my mood and the specific music as to which system I prefer.

Now that I have exposed a bit more bias, let me get to your question on an "if it were me, basis." Bear in mind that I have only heard the new Refs in a showroom and not configured as I would configure them in an HT or music room.

For starters, I would buy six RF-7's. They are great speakers and can be driven well by a wide variety of receiver/separates configs. Obviously, I agree with you in that I like the individual sound of the larger RF-7... but I find the integration of the same speaker for the front three to be a critical aspect of pure HT enjoyment. There is also the fact that an RC-7 drops one woofer when speech frequencies occur to boost one's ability to understand speech. Since understanding speech has not been a problem with the KLF-30 modified center (with two 12" woofers), I doubt it would be a problem if an RF-7 were given a new "horizontal" motor board and took its rightful place in the center.

Putting a lesser speaker (where upwards of 75% of the sound is pushed toward my ears) just doesn't make a whole lot of sense theoretically... and much less than that when you hear a proper six (or seven) channel system. Yeah, I know there may be others in the household with veto powers on aesthetics and space issues... but if you are going to put that much dough into your mix, why not give it the chance to shake and bake a better, sit up and take notice, HT offering?

Frankly, people who have heard my system jump on me to make new motor boards for their systems... the big center is such a draw once you hear it. Clearly, experience teaches me (and my guests) that there is no substitute for three matched main speakers! It would be nice if Klipsch offered the RF-7 with an optional "horizontalized" motor board. Obviously, keeping the speakers with correct ear orientations (especially as to height, the square horn cuts out some of the array problems) is a concern. It would also be nice if someone could figure out a way to let the Center Main motor board tilt to target the prime listening area at ear level... instead of shimming up the whole box.

So the mutilation I would do to my new RF-7 would be to void its warranty and build a horizontal motor board. I just figure trading the warranty for such a huge upside in sound performance is well worth the worst that could happen.

Now to the ambiance thing. Personally, I find the "surround engineering" of front and rear firing speakers with the null toward the "sweetspot" to be more of a nod toward yesterday's "aural clue" based surround technology. And that's okay if your building your system to play your huge collection of CD's of yesteryear. But, I find it less than ideal for the discrete sounds of 5.1 and beyond... which seems to be the trend of the foreseeable future. I find that placing two "main-duplicate" speakers on opposite walls about a foot behind your "sweetspot" head position is a more than adequate solution to playing the old style surround program material... and it really makes the new stuff come out right.

Granted, you may have difficulty talking the audio sales manger to letting you take home some trial speakers and leaving your significant other for security... but it is definitely worth a try. And I have tried. I have set up two systems that have been first configured to the latest conventional wisdom (specialized center and di-polar surround speakers) and then exchanged them for six mains... properly aligned motor boards, precisely located and SPL calibrated. Sure, it is a bit more expensive and the speaker locations are a bit less flexible... but man is it a trip every time you slide in a great DVD... and better than you thought it would be on plain old TV fare.

Nothing you can do short of illegal drugs (which I do not advocate) can drag you into your screen like six discrete channels of sound coming from six identical speakers... plus, of course, something decent from arcane subwoofering lore to handle the 16-80Hz range. Once you have experienced the primo sub standard... there is no going back willingly! And remember to set the six mains to "SMALL" and let the sub do what it does best. Sure, sometimes you can boost your SPL's with speakers set to "LARGE" but conflicting long waves will likely cancel out some of the finer aspects of the sound source. Let's face it, Seb, part of the reason we buy Klipsch is because of the realism that exponential horns make in our electrified sound experience. Six Klipsch mains is for "real" when it comes to movies and "moving" when it comes to music. Maybe if more people bought the configuration, the company wouldn't have to make as many "market share" compromises in future products. It sure would simplify production runs if the only internal change in the six speaker array was one motor board.

Oh yeah! One more thing... with modern decoders matrixing a rear effects channel from 5.1 sources, that sixth main speaker in the rear is an increasingly important ambiance builder. I have tried "center speakers" in the rear because that's what the expert's recommended. It was a good lesson in letting my ears be the guide... and my ears tell me that a full size main speaker (or two if you have a VERY large room) is the way to go. Come to think of it, old style di-polar surround sound probably has more of a place in cramped quarters or where fashion is more important than sound quality. It takes all kinds...

So, Seb, sorry to be so redundant... but gut level honesty is all I have at the bottom of my thinking/experience barrel.

HornEd

PS: BobG, if you happen to read this, I thought you would like to know that the hospital staff took ample notice of my Klipsch polo shirt smuggled into ICU along with a mug and a clipboard to plan my Klipsch motorhome strategies. Thanks again for your support of those who always enjoy, frequently exalt, and sometimes mutilate your product. And that, too, should be okay if we just continue to buy and you keep making it worth it! HornEd

[HornEd]

Onemike from Sweden, greetings from someone who may share your ancestry. When my eyes were checked by the head of ophthalmology at UCSF, it was discovered that I have a condition that is traceable to Nordic peoples... so there might well have been a Swede in my Northern German/Southern English mongrelization. But, now to your question... it is not fair for me to use so much of your thread without being more specific about the question that started it.

You know by now that I favor a "main" speaker modified as a center... and not a full sized speaker placed atop your TV like the one in Video Essentials. But, at least, the highly regarded Video Essentials set-up DVD agrees that nothing short of a full size speaker is right for the center spot. Obviously, having the tweeter and exponential horn at a proper height and "ear angle" is important.

The KLF C-7 and RC-7 are both great center speakers as conventional center speakers go... but they have distinctly different "voices" to my ear. Thus, it is critical to know what kind of speakers and their timbre characteristics to answer your question.

One significant difference is in the "speech frequencies." In the RC-7, Klipsch uses a technique to improve speech intelligibility filtering out those frequencies from the second woofer. I guess the DVD's I've heard have been made by actors who are graduates of Mrs. Klearly's Elocution School. I considered doing that to the KLF-30 center I customized, but the speech is even more clear than on the C-7... and I try not to change Klipsch engineering unless the reason is VERY compelling.

I lived in France many years ago and enjoyed summer trips to your beautiful country and friendly people... I just didn't realize then that it was a part of me. In case you are wondering, the characteristic is that very tiny bits of the iris flake off and float in the eyeball. It is not a problem except that is suggests a predisposition to glaucoma. The phenomenon is somewhat rare and probably harks back to the days of Viking business "excursions" to neighboring lands.

Your participation on this forum helps it gain the global perspective that is vital to living the good life in this millennium.

Smashed with Sound! HornEd