cjgeraci

Runninshine, If you want a hoot (and some more thoughts), do a search in two-channel for "Lascala Klipschorn" or "Belle Klipschorn" (and similar types of searches), and you will find a number of threads in here about people's impressions of the mighty Klipschorn vs. Belle/Lascalas. Interestingly, most of the comments over the past years reflect what you just read in this thread. There is one more point, however. Yes, overall - the Klipschorn is a larger-sounding, better version of the Belle. BUT, even though both are fully horn loaded, the bass "sound" of both speakers is quite different to my ears. If I preferred rock as my listening choice most of the time, I "might" prefer the bass sound of the Belles. If your listening preferences are primarily non-rock (classical, jazz, blues, pop, and everything else), I'd opt for the Klipschorns. And yes, I've owned and loved Klipschorns and Belles - and run them both with various passives and actives. Carl. P.S. That being said, you also get a shorter (and to my ears - inferior) mid horn with the Belles. So that's something else to consider........

Thank YOU! That is a point I make here and everywhere,the pre is where it's at,it will make or break 7's.Of course you need a good source and solid power but all would be a waste without the right pre. Wise Fish speaks the truth. Its the prepro that has the biggest overall effect on your sound. If you do not like your results and just change out the amps, you will likely be chasing your tail. Carl.

Interesting. I thought that we were discussing the best speakers for hard rock/metal as opposed to the best Klipsch speakers. I've owned Khorns, Belles, Cornwalls and have also played around with various Lascalas and Heresies. I love Heritage - just not for the genre being discussed. YMMV. If I had to pick from Heritage, I would go with Cornwall II or IIIs. I would prefer KLF-20/30s, CF-3s, Chorus IIs or KG 4.2/5.2/5.5s for the hard stuff. RF-7s can be awesome for the hard stuff, with Dean's mod - and with certain source/pre/amp combos. But, get RF-7s wrong, and those titanium drivers up top will drill a hole in your skull at high spls. Carl. P.S. Palladiums? Thought the original poster was talking about mid-fi, not $20k a pair.

Yeah, Big D, I saw the response graphs, and it looks like they start to roll off after 7,000hz. I'm planning on crossing them over at 6000 to 6500, so that won't be a problem. I'm more worried about them reaching down to 400 hz without hurting them. I looked at the 405s for awhile before going a different direction. To my recollection, they now have titanium drivers. I would not feel comfortable crossing them over at 400 hz unless you are doing it with an extreme slope. Carl.

Depends on what type of music you listen to the vast majority of the time ..... Carl.

I agree for the most part. I would pretty much skip most horns for hard rock/metal unless one is willing to engage in serious upgrades - and have some serious patience. If you go down the path and vow to do anything to get to hard rock/metal nirvana with horns, it can be done. [H] But, it can be a long road to get it right. There are easier paths to get there ..... If you are expecting plug and play heaven with mid-fi, you might be disappointed. At least at the levels that I like to listen to...... Carl. P.S. Out of all of the Klipsch speakers mentioned, Heritage would not be my first choice for hard rock/metal, and Khorns would be at the very bottom of my list.

You can suck that dent out with a vacuum cleaner (gently) - Just in case you didn't know. I would like the 3/4 Grill and let your Horns show. - But my Real preference would be have that same wood that is on the cabinets to be surrounding the entire woofer and then leave it completely Naked! - This should not be too hard - Please Veneer the entire Front for us Voyeurs. Wow, truly beautiful. At the very least, I would opt for the 3/4 Grill and show the horn (4 out of 7 horns in my setup are naked). But, I also agree with Cut-Throat. My preference would also be to leave it all naked and veneer the front (would cause us to drool even more - if that is possible)..... Carl.

Sootshe, congrats on your beautiful Lascalas and your Trachorn experience. I've enjoyed the Trachorn/902 combo so much that this week I moved them back up front (and yes, even though they have one inch throats). I also agree with Rudy. I've owned Beyma CP25s (they currently sit on a shelf), JBL 2404s (they are in another setup), and I keep coming back to the Eminence sound - at least for quasi-Heritage. Maybe its the phenolics. The Eminence are very reasonably priced, but I personally dig the sound. After all, much of our various listening experiences are subjective as to likes and dislikes. Although yes, as a general preference, I prefer higher quality drivers. But, there are exceptions. I also have heard dramatic differences in the type of horns coupled to the Eminence supertweeters, with the various APT designs having better dispersion that the K 77 design. As for the open horn look - I agree that it really suits the top end of large Heritage. After all, enclosed is a pic of my rear surrounds.................... Carl.

Ahhh, I see.................very nice. Carl.

I really like the Radians a lot. I've also run them without tweeters and they are pretty strong on the top end. This winter I'll probably go back to running them alone on top once I hook my RTA back up and do some 'equing (I run 902s without tweeters in the rear). I have heard a couple sets of 2445s and they are nice drivers. You might benefit by running them with a true 2 inch throat. (I also run 511s with my side surrounds and one-inch Trachorns in the rear). I found some surprisingly decent 2 inch throat midrange horns to run with the Radians (for very low $$ new). If curious, pm or email me. Carl.

Under the hood with the APT 200 on top. Carl.

You are welcome. Enclosed is a pic of my APT 200s on top of my three-way VOTTs. The Klipschorn bass bin can be seen in the background. Carl.

I have owned all three, Bob Crites CT 125, the APT 150, and the APT 200 (the baby cheeks version). I currently use a CT 125 in my center Belle, and a pair of baby cheeks APT 200s with my combo VOTT/Klipschorns (mains). To my ears, the APT 150 is less beamy that Bob's horn (K 77 replica) with better dispersion and the APT 200 is less beamy than the 150, with better dispersion than the 150. The biggest differences to my ears was the move from a 150 to a 200 vs. the move from a K77 to a 150. VMMV. Carl.

As always, great review Colin. Cannot wait to hear a pair. Carl.

And of course, I still have my Khorns up front. They do bottom end duty to supplement my three-way Altec A7s. Carl.

You are crossing the 902s too low and with too shallow of a crossover by using them with the ALKs (400 hz and 12 db slope if I recall). I am the poster you referenced from a year ago, and I've used 902s with wooden Trachorns to great success as two-ways. I would personally cross them over no lower than 500 hz. If you are going to try to keep using them with the KHorns, then 500 hz would be your point. If you are going to try them with the LaScalas, then 600 would be the point or 700 with an extreme sharp slope. As Coytee mentioned, if you have about almost two and a half to three grand to burn, then yes, by all means, go ahead and try a Jubescala (horns, drivers & crossover). Personally, my preference would be to slap the 902s on the Trachorns, go with a decent two-way active and be done with it. Of course, different strokes for different folks. My 902s now reside in the rear with Trachorns, Belles and a loving relationship to a set of Forte drivers. Good luck. If you have any questions, just email or PM me. Carl.

You didn't think I was going to let that go, did you? There are a lot of ears out there that are hearing the advantages of a larger format midrange, including the Jub-heads (no disrespect intended, all in good fun). 11/16" opening on a K55. Full 2" opening on the BMS4592. When I first started looking into going to a larger format midrange for my Khorns, my goal was to get more of the midrange sound from the driver and less from the horn. The 2" driver really accomplishes that goal, and significantly changes the proportion of sound coming from the driver versus the horn. As an experiment, if a Khorn owner took a K55 and set it on top of their Khorn and wired it into the crossover, and played some music through the system, how do you think that would sound? If you said thin, missing a lot of the lower frequencies of the midrange, not loud enough, you'd be correct. I've set the 4592 drivers on top of my Khorns, not even in a horn, and I'm telling you, the sound quality was virtually the same as with them in the horns. Yes, there were differences, mostly having to do with the directionality of the sound, and imaging, but ALL the midrange was there. That experiment was a real ear-opener for me. That's when I knew that the larger format was making a big difference in what I was hearing in the midrange. The same can be said for getting right up close to the mid horn when you have music playing at a low level. The difference between the sound coming from the K400/K55 and the BMS/Tractrix is night and day. Part of that is the quality of the driver, and part of it is the size. Based on my own observations, the larger the throat, the larger the driver opening, and the larger the driver diaphragm, the closer you get to a cone-type midrange sound quality, while still maintaining the good characteristics of being a horn. What I mean by that is you are hearing the actual driver, not the sound from the driver being compressed into a small throat and spit out into the room, where the horn is doing a larger proportion of the work to produce the volume of sound from the midrange. I know I'm not using technical terms to describe this, and actually I think that's a good thing! This is from a layman's point of view. I'm just like most Khorn owners out there. I'm sitting there listening to my Khorns and trying to figure out ways to make the midrange sound less "horny", a little smoother, fuller sounding. Of all the things I've tried, from resistors to put on the midranges (that my Klipsch dealer gave me back in 1989 because I wasn't the only one asking about Khorn midrange issues), to tons of electronics; going to the larger format is the best thing I've done for the midrange in my system. So Al, when you say you don't see the real advantage to a 2" versus a 1", I think technically you are correct. In a living room, a 1" driver/horn can very easily outperform even the most efficient bass bins, and can produce volumes in excess of anything we should be listening to, but there are advantages to the larger format that go way beyond the technical reasons for using them, and I for one am incredibly glad that I discovered those advantages while I'm still in the prime of my music listening. Greg Greg, have you heard a pair of Al's one-inch throat Tractrix horns paired up with a quality one-inch driver? I only pose the question because I would expect your fine 2 inch tractrix and the BMS driver (which is a great horn and great driver combo) to sound much more open and natural than the one-inch K400 and 7/8th inch K55 (which is a #$%&* horn and poor driver combo), which often sounds like it has a bad cold. I have owned a pair of Al's one-inch tractrix wooden tractrix horns and have paired them up with some nice drivers - finally settling on Altec 902s. I would also characterize the Trachorn/902 combo as having "cone-type midrange and sound quality with the good characteristics of the horn." That being said, I do agree that two-inch drivers provide some demonstrable advantages at higher spls, and I am honored to also have the larger throats in my system. Al, kudos on working on the 300 hz idea. The Khorn bass bin really benefits by cutting it off lower (mine are now cut off at 250hz). In the future, your potential extreme slopes paired with Greg's horn and the BMS driver sounds like the ultimate setup for those running Khorns. Carl.

Appreciate the comments, Sootshe. Just out of curiousity, what aspects of the VOTT's performance would be enhanced or improved by swapping out these particular JBL drivers for 416s or 515s? Thanks. Carl.

Why not go for a pair of Bob Crites's CT125 tweeters? They definitely sound better than K-77s and they're not that expensive. Agreed. Bob's tweeters sound quite a bit better than the K77s, and at times, I prefer Bob's tweeters to the JBL and Beyma alternatives. Welcome to the Belle club. I'll never sell mine. Enjoy. Carl.

Its great to see the various tweaks and additions members have made to their systems this year, including the addition of several new pairs of great-looking Jubilees. I've been away for awhile, but I thought that I would weigh in with my latest addition to my "horn" family. Added a pair of Altec A7-500s, Voice of the Theatre cabinets to the system, with JBL E140 woofers inside (yum!). The Klipschorn bass bins are still adding bass on the bottom end (cut off at 200 hz), and I decided to run the VOTT as three-ways, with a pair of Al's extreme slopes on the top end. As a result, I am cutting the VOTT cabinets off at 800 hz, transitioning to two-inch horns (with Radian 850s - love 'em) for midrange and transitioning at 5700 steeply to Trachorns and 902s for use as tweeters. I wondered how the 902s would work purely as tweeters, and I am liking what I am hearing now. Reconfigured the rest of the system and moved racks around. Now, the 7.1 is as follows: Altec A7-500s (three ways) as mains (with Khorn support on the very bottom); Belle center; Belles as side surrounds; Fortes as rear surrounds; and the big 'ol SVS sub. Of course, the Phase Linear Andromedas as well as their bass module are also still in the system - to be used as desired. The first pic to follow. Thanks for Sheltie Dave for everything (as usual) and to Master Yoda for his inspiration. Horns are good. Carl.

Congrats Travis. The Jubs are beautiful. And I'm sure that they sound even better than they look. Carl.

Congrats on your Fostex tweeters and may you enjoy them for years to come. Some of us, however, now simply decry "tweeters? we don't need no stinkin' tweeters....." [H] YMMV. Carl.

Yes, you can replace the stock fans on the QSC PLX series but that is only one solution. Just unplug the stock fan like a few of us have done............. At residential levels (even my high spl listening) - no problem. Carl.

Agree with what some have said about missing out on the great top end if you use 902s in 3 way. I have had beymas, 2404s and frites and still prefer 902s as two ways. Run 902s two way with rear belles crossed at 700. Vmmv. Carl.

Disagree. The average consumer does not care about diaphragm size or a driver's exit size. I like Gil's analysis. The "somewhat" educated Khorn buyer is not focusing on the spec in order to swap out the driver/horn, etc., but may think the spec refers to exit size - and that probably plays a factor in the purchasing decision. A little knowledge can be dangerous. . . . . . I do not think that the spec as stated clearly conveys that the Khorn has a two inch diaphragm as opposed to having a two inch exit size - but I would not necessarily characterize it as "misleading" When I first glanced at the spec, I also thought that maybe the two inch referred to the exit size. And then I slapped myself, remembered Atlas, and thought better of that conclusion. Carl.