Schurkey

Once again, I want to state up-front that I'm not familiar with current receivers, but I'd like to add that part of the reason is that I gave up on receivers as "high end" fifteen years ago. Mass market, yes. Quality sound at a given price point "first priority", no. My memory of a 1980 Mac --or ANY other 1980 receiver-- is that there was no such thing as built-in DACs. A receiver was a tuner, preamp, and stereo power amp, with as many "buttons/knobs/switches" as the manufacturer chose to include. Those buttons might have included a 5-band equalizer (JVC JR-S series) or a "sonic hologram" generator, but NEVER a DAC. That was MANY years later. (right???) The original poster, who has been conspicuous by his absence, has said nothing about multi-channel--I gather he's moving the stereo from one room to another, and is just looking for a two-channel receiver that's more worthy than the Trusty Old McIntosh. So, yeah, that isn't confirmed but I think it's a reasonable interpretation of his post. I sure wouldn't recommend he buy a Home Theater receiver which is going to have three-to-five amp channels that he's going to pay for but not use. And to my knowledge there is no such thing as a high-end two channel receiver anymore. High-end Home Theater (multi-channel) receivers MIGHT be another story. I haven't spent one minute listening to them, so I have "almost" zero qualification to talk about 'em. What little I do know is this: I pick up a 200 wpc X 2 ("400 watts" total) Aragon 4004 or 8008BB amp, and it's 60+ pounds, because it has two GIANT transformers and more storage capacitance than you can shake a stick at. It will throw 15+ amps into a speaker continuously, and it'll drive "something like" 700 watts short-term into a 2 ohm load without frying--IF (big IF) the wall socket can supply the juice without voltage drop. Yes, this is all just power output, and they're not the best amps ever made, but they did get very good reviews from the audio press for sound quality, build quality, and projected reliability. By comparison, I pick up a mass-market 100 or 150 X 5 or X 7 home-theater receiver and it's thirty pounds or less, has a transformer the same physical size as what's in an old-school 120 watt/channel (240 total) Japanese receiver from '78 and despite the claim of "500" or "700" or "900" watts printed on the box, its shit is weak 'cause it's rated for ZERO watts into a 4-ohm load. The amp section is all voltage (cheap) and practically no current (expensive). There's no mention of output transistor operation, there's no way a tiny power supply can have the transistors in class A, probably not even in AB. Everything about the HT receivers I see around town screams COST CUTTING, including the way the specs for distortion are worded. Now there has been talk of top-of-the-line Denon, Sony ES, Integra (didn't know they made a receiver) and on and on. I expect they are better built than the HT junk I see around here, but even if he can bridge the amps, he's still buying more channels than he can use. (Or he's getting an introduction into multi-channel, which might not be all bad, but it's not part of his stated purpose.) He says his old McIntosh works fine. Certainly the parts are old, and I don't doubt that age has caused it to drift from it's original specs, and it's original sound. Even so, I'm thinking that it's almost certainly better sounding and certainly better-built than any 2-channel receiver currently made, and with a "tune up" as suggested previously, I bet it's a match for (or better than) any HT receiver (used for 2-channel) at any price point. But if it were me (and I recognize that it isn't) and I just had to have something new, I'd be looking for seperates or an integrated amp, with the intention of using the Mc as a tuner only. (It's a Clear Channel world, and radio SUCKS around here--so, really, I have no use for a tuner at all--but apparently he does.)

I don't claim to be all that knowledgeable about new gear. What I've seen is that a CD player will load and play CDs, no fuss, no delays, no screwing around. A combo DVD-CD-MP3-ABC-XYZ-Whatever player will load the disc then take five minutes while it tries to figure out what's been loaded. Eventually it will get around to actually playing the disc, but by then you'll probably have to go shave, 'cause you've grown five-o'clock shadow waiting for anything to happen. If you want MUSIC but don't need VIDEO, buy a CD-only player even if it costs MORE. You'll like it more than a combo unit. And DO NOT buy a Toshiba 5-disc carousel DVD-combo player--the damned thing won't actually play all five discs without MANUALLY skipping among the discs! Guess how I found out!?

The bad news--or the good news--depending on your point of view, is that you already own it. "Receivers" are not high-end, and haven't been for years. Receivers are now marketed for mid-to-low fi. They are now low budget, bells 'n' whistles OR Chinese minimum-content/maximum profit garbage. Inflated ratings and anemic power supplies rule that market now. Are we talking stereo or multi-channel (home theater)? If stereo, and you want it simple, I suggest a used Aragon DIA 100, or DIA 150. It's an integrated amp --no tuner. Look for 'em in eBay or Audiogon. Most anything now is built in China, including once-respected names like Harman-Kardon. J-U-N-K. I strongly suggest seperate pre- and power amp(s) If there really is a "high end" receiver still made--and I doubt it, but what do I know--I'd also like to hear about it. Anyone else with ideas???

Yeah, but they're now made in China, I think. Yecch. Yet another example of corporate greed and outsourcing.

What about the Aragon Palladium series amps? Rated for 100/125 wpc into 8 ohms, CLASS A. But they will happily drive 400 wpc into 8 in class AB mode, or 600 wpc AB into 4 ohms. My understanding is that most any "Class A" style amp goes into AB mode if driven hard enough. I think the Aragon 4004 and 8008 are listed as "class A/AB", that is they are class A until a certain power level is reached, then they go to AB. This level is much lower than the Palladium listed above. I think the 8008 will drive 20-25 wpc in class A, but 200 AB all into 8 ohms. The 4004 will maybe drive 10-15 wpc Class A, 200 AB into 8 ohms, and runs cooler than the 8008 series, too.

Ohhhhhhhhhh. I think I've soiled myself with thermionic emission.

I've never heard a Crown amp. I know that there was a big (750 watt into 8 ohm???) Master [EDIT: Macro] Reference or somesuch that got good audiophile publicity about ten years ago. I'm surprised that a class A/B-B amp has such a following. I was under the impression that biasing more heavily into class A transistor operation was a good thing sonically. Anyone had experience in hearing crossover distortion? I can't say I do, but then I've never listened to a class B amp driving decent speakers. Transistor bias class is all smoke and mirrors, maybe???

My amps: 2 Aragon 8008, 2 Aragon 4004. No subwoofer, so there's one "spare" channel. eBay bargains, especially the 4004 which costs less to buy and uses less electricity than the 8008 at low volume (lower bias--less heat too.) Heavy, so shipping gets spendy. Can't break 'em with a stick. The 8008 is slightly "prettier" than the 4004. The 8008's are newer. Some say the 4004 sounds better. (I can't tell the difference in the sonics)

My understanding is that they were not intended to "sound" good, they were intended to "look" good. I have a Sgt. Pepper picture disc, never out of the wrapper until it went under water in the flood of '97. Still have it...somewhere. Haven't seen it for years.

IF you're willing to make assumptions about the speaker load, a simple voltmeter would work. You could measure the actual current with an ammeter. Years ago, you could buy audio wattmeters--I think Radio Shaft sold 'em. Again, you're back to making assumptions about the speaker load. A wattmeter is just a voltage meter with different markings on the face.

You could go all the way to an Aragon Stage One for very little additional. I presume there's a few left out there. I got mine at Acoustic Sounds, and the price was "very" right when I bought it about 14 months ago. Aragon isn't on their website anymore, but you could call and ask. 1-800-716-3553

Suckers. Now that I have someone else to do the thinking, designing and testing, and once you break the ice with your multi-zillion dollar ad campaigns, I'm going to go to my Communist Chinese suppliers, and sell filtered, generic air at prices just under yours. That swimming pool simile even gave me a great twist on the original idea: I'll throw in a squirt bottle so the user can add humidity! That gives me a sideline business, because then I can sell special "Humidi-Pure Sparkling Sonic Water"--straight from the Bejing tap. Hah! You thought you were so clever. The stuff I filter out-the pollution, chemical ooze, petroleum vapors, all that carcinogenic crap, can get dumped on the ground over there. Hell, I don't have to live there. I'll get the Chinese government to build my factory, and they'll even supply workers for about 30 cents an hour. If production drops, the workers get beaten until they get it right. AND, if this goes over big, they'll supply prisoners or child labor to make up the slack. Every twelve-year-old needs the character-building provided by 70-hour work weeks and men with large leather straps. Let's face it, Americans have always had an appetite for goods produced by slave labor. It's just that Lincoln spoiled that party, and now China and some forward-thinking American investors are getting rich from pent-up demand. Yeah, now I can be a rich, big shot American Traitor, selling Communist Chinese goods while helping to destroy our own economy. I'll have to have a patriotic-sounding name for my company, though. What do you think of American Atmospheric Products? The initials--AAP--will probably even get listed ahead of yours in all the vendor listings, so people will call me first. I'll get a photo of a Bald Eagle soaring through a beautiful blue sky, then photoshop it so it looks like he's gliding in a high-end soundroom, with lots of red and white accents. I'll get some eight-foot-tall freaks of nature pro-sport celebrities to endorse my product. Kids'll buy the stuff to install in their cars! I bet I can get tax breaks from the Bush administration.

And no-one so far has nominated either the Aragon 4004 or 8008? What a shame.

FYI: We don't have any kind of quota policy and we never have as far as I know. Every Klipsch dealer has access to Reference and Heritage equally. There are no exclusions either way. --Joshua Ryan Hall So I could order K-Horns at Best Buy?

I have an Adcom GFP-565. Very nice. I have considered buying an Aragon 24K, but no longer. I went to an Aragon Stage One. The '565 is now my phono preamp. Aragon 28K is currently getting blown out the doors at 1/2 retail. Supplies low at Audio Advisor. Move quickly.

The thing won't play a CD without chopping off the first few seconds of every track? That thing would go through the window of the store I bought it from if they wouldn't replace it. My HK DVD player has spasms where it won't recognize "Region 1" coded DVDs, and refuses to play them. Same DVD, same player, a week or two later and everything's okie-dokie. I've heard all I need to to know that HK is headed down the tubes as far as quality/reliability is concerned. There was a time when I REALLY respected HK. Now, too much of the product line is made in Communist China.

I know several years ago the Crown Macro Reference (or some similar name) was written up quite favorably by Stereophile. It had 750 watts/channel into 8 ohms, and more into 4. I was looking for a power amp for a second system about 6 months ago, and considered Crown. I try to buy USA product when I can, and the prices on the Crown stuff was...really teriffic. In the end, I got scared off by the big watts/tiny power supply contradiction. Seems all PA amps are built that way, using switching power supplies or other power supply "voodoo". Perhaps it can be done and sound good...I just don't know. In the end, I wound up buying used 2-channel Aragon amps (a 4004 MK II, and a pair of 8008BBs) for both the secondary system and upgraded HT. Cost more, and will suck more power out of the wall sockets, but long-term I'm not going to regret it. I'm still searching for one more 8008BB. Got my first Aragon 4004 in '91 or '92, and except for transformer hum, it's been a total sweetheart. None of the other Aragon amps I bought have the hum, they're dead quiet. I'm going to recommend them MOST HIGHLY the minute I've exited the market. In the meantime, I don't want to drive the prices up!

I have a soft spot in my head for the late '70's JVC JR-S series. I bought a JR-S501 in '79, and picked up a '201 off of eBay about a year ago. Good bass, reasonable (but not Aragon-like) current delivery. "Sounds" good to me. The 501 is retired, at least until I find someone who can attend to it's needs. The '201 is the Tunemaster for the garage. Nothing like an engine overhaul with decent music to set the pace. Danged fine recievers, even if my '501 has been spastic for a few years. I'd pay real money to have it fixed, but the local repair shop has had it twice ($100 each time) and can't find the problem. Anyone else have one of these old gems??

Multi-channel amps "usually" have a shared power supply. That is, the power supply can produce a certain amount of volts/amps, and it's divided among however many amp channels are in the case. Result: A more efficient, lighter design that works well for Home Theater, where only the "full range" speakers need real power, and the other channels (sides and rears) kind of loaf along most of the time. You rarely have ALL the channels demanding high power at the same time. Plenty of Home Theaters use NO full range speakers, and a powered sub for the bass. On the other hand, if you have the money and room for low-impedance, low efficiency, full-range speakers all 'round, that multi-channel amp will probably be pretty stressed trying to pump lots of watts to each channel. How did I spend my money? I bought several used Aragon 2-channel amps, and 100 feet (25 FT x 4) of 10-gauge house wiring, outlets and outlet box. Now I have each amp plugged into it's own 15 or 20 amp circuit. I'll see it on my electric bills, but NO channel is going to starve for watts, even if the program material has them all pumping at the same time.

Living in the Frozen Wastelands, I've become a College Hockey fan. Our local arena (a $100,000,000 alumni donation, half of which was supposedly earmarked for academics but was then "stolen" to complete the arena.) has 50,000 watts of amp power, and more giant PA speakers than you can shake a stick at. http://theralph.com/new2/Arena_Info_Section/VirtualTour.htm Typical SPL readings with my RS analog meter hover around 100 db. (for two+ hours!) I've seen 110 db peaks. Not only is it TOO FRIGGIN' LOUD, but you can't understand what they're saying about 10% of the time. My wife, in-laws, and I have to wear hearing protection ear muffs to sit through a game. You should see the infants crying, and kids plugging thier ears with their fingers. Tragic, preventable, and as might be predicted, arena management ABSOLUTELY REFUSES to respond appropriatly. They use sound pressure as a crowd control tactic: Whenever they want "home team advantage" the volume goes even higher, to agitate the masses into a frenzy. AND IT WORKS! The volume hits 110 db and the crowd goes nuts. I see this every game. (Granted, it's kind of circular: As the PA volume goes up, so does crowd noise. It becomes kind of a feedback loop, once started it just builds on itself.) I consider this overwhelming evidence that spending tons of money on amps and speakers is TOTALLY WASTED if (1) you choose expensive yet crappy equipment, and (2) the doofus at the control board doesn't care about sound quality. Translated into a home environment: Don't be a doofus when setting up and operating your equipment!