RFinco

---------------- On 2/15/2004 7:43:05 PM TheEAR wrote: RFinco, Yes Definitive Won NUMEROUS AWARDS,like the Grand Prix award(what a joke,is this formula 1?)and countless hype A holic awards from drunk reviewers who said... "These speakers sound AMAZING" "best speakers I ever heard" "sound so real I felt like Tyson was beating the crap outta me" "bass so deep and muddy it felt like mud" "buy these now!" "best speakers PERIOD" These reviewers never heard Dynaudio,JM Lab,Wilson or Avalon.Or they do not value transparency.finesse and ultimate detail and control. Their subs being named SUPER and PRO they have to be super duper deaf technology. And this hoopla... "With the new SuperCube Reference Definitive sets new performance standards for subwoofers period!" yeah right they forgot about SVS big time.The Super Cube "reference" get slaughtered by a SVS PB2-Plus and lets not even throw in a PB2-Ultra or B4-plus.Their claims are hilarious. Actually, I agree about your comments to a point---yes, their marketing campaign is quite extensive, and yes--they do sound, at times like they are selling snake oil of some sort, BUT!! for their price they are a very nice speaker, and they rival some very nice audio pieces that are double to triple the price---you say "WILSON" well...jeez, very little compaires to WILSON, but do you mention that Wilson speakers cost 3-25 times as much? they should sound fantastic--they weigh 700 lbs, and are the size of a crumpled teenager. and, at least DEF TECH includes the crossover, which for Wilson costs what, a mere 2000 to 5000 dollars more? wow...bargin. Dynaudio--I've heard em, and honestly I think they make good car speakers and they should leave it at that. sorry. I think they are over priced--even in car audio--you're better off with FOCAL or MB QUART These reviewers HAVE heard DEF TECH speakers, on refrence grade equipment (Krell, Lexicon, etc etc)--I know, because the same guy that reviewed the BP2000s for HOME THEATER also was the reviewer for M & K, and the DREAM WILSON AUDIO system (MAXX I believe...) you can't fault the speakers because the writers that describe them failed their creative writing courses, and yes--the reviewers at times say some very stupid things to describe speakers. As far as their subs are concerned--I'm not that impressed---BUT!!! I'm not that impressed by many of the subs in that price range anyway (SVS subs are really impressive though--and I had just heard one very recently--and I want one now...) hoopla--I love that word...haven't seen it in print in quite a while.... I agree that their Hype is kinda nuts--but, I think they are nice speakers, and many of the criticisms I've heard just don't seem accurate, and some of them ARE ACCURATE. there is a sacrifice, a trade off that sometimes have to be made, this I agree with. They aren't as warm as Klipsh, this is something that I miss a bit, but I primarily watch movies with mine and for that they are spectacular. I don't think movie sounds are accurate to how things should sound, I think they are somewhat larger than life, and the Def techs match this nicely. Would they be in a dedicated 2 channel room--no, I don't think their made for that to be honest with you, and if Def Tech says they are, well--they are just stepping out of their place. as for their marketing--they aren't targeting audiophiles--this is true--they are targeting people that want to have a home theater that is also their living room--and for that set up I think DEF TECHS are a nice speaker. Bose--the greatest trick ever pulled on people...oh..wait Bang & Olfsen..forgot about them...I've heard GE clock radios that sound better... ----------------

Kyle--very cool--well said. Like I said I got such an incredible deal on my speakers that it was impossible to pass up, and if I hadn't gotten this price the DEF TECHS would not be in my home--Klipsh would be. BP7000s are 10k?????? jessus....for that you could get B&W 802s.....man....he's kinda foolish---he should have shopped around a bit. his loss! oh...you poor man....SONY.....wow....I'd start a collection for you if that was the case...SOMEONE GET THIS GUY SOME SPEAKERS STAT!!! I'm glad you're happy with what you've purchased!

Arthurs--you've got a great system--very nice, someday I hope to mimic it. QUESTION why did you go with the KRELL standard over say, PROCEED AVP, LEXICON, or Merridian??--I'm just curious.... I've appreciated all of your posts, and I agree whole-heartedly with the things you've said. minn--I'm not here to make enemies, and I've never said anything about how great my speakers are, nor have I ever said that yours weren't. if you can't take what I say with a grain of salt, thats your issue--not mine. look at what I actually wrote, and you'll see that I wasn't Raving about anything--I was simply saying that its not fair to dismiss something for someone else simply because YOU don't personally like it. Open your mind a bit. there are quite a lot of speakers and equipment out there, and they all sell to various people. does that mean that everyone that doesn't have what you have is wrong?? if you believe that, you have problems that are beyond this site.

I found this while surfing AUDIOWEB it might be of interest to those of you that are a bit of a collector http://www.audioweb.com/Ad/AdInfo.asp?adid=141594 World's Oldest Klipschorn For Sale KLIPSCHORN. This is the world's oldest known Klipschorn. Serial number 14. It was built in July of 1947. The Klipsch museum only has #18 and #20. The original serial number tag is in almost perfect condition. It is signed by Paul Klipsch himself. There is another tag inside that describes the woofer specs. This is probably in Paul Klipsch' own hand as well. #14 was also inspected on 22nd September 1949 and initialed by Lloyd S. McClellan--Klipch' first employee. Currently fitted with an early 50's Jensen P15LL--probably the best woofer ever made for corner horns. This is the same one that comes in the Jensen Imperial. According to the internal woofer tag, #14 left the factory with a Stephens Trusonic P52LX but this may have been upgraded by the factory at a later date. This speaker was always in Arkansas until recently. Anyway, the Stephens are sometimes for sale on the web if you want to put it back to original. The high frequency horn is a beautiful multiply Smith Multi Septa High Frequency horn powered by a Jensen compression driver. This horn is still used today as the JBL 2397 and Westlake. Crossover may be original and built by Paul Klipsch himself. Condition is sensational. Both drivers are working and it sounds fabulous. $1995. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For Sale Information Price: $1,995.00 Qty: 1 Ad Type: For Sale Views: 1831 Ad Id: 141594 Start Date: 1/26/2004 12:00 AM End Date: 2/25/2004 1:00 AM Current Time: 2/13/2004 6:10 PM Seller: lowthers@i1.net Location: St. Louis, MO View Seller's Info & Feedback Leave Feedback for this Seller View Seller's Other Listings Ask Seller a Question Manufacturer: Klipsch LLC Model: Klipschorn View Similar Listings Search Equipment Reviews Research Equipment Info & Pricing Condition: Used Use: Home Audio Category: Loudspeakers: Horn Information on Loudspeakers View Similar Listings Search Equipment Reviews Watch this Listing View My Watch List Email This Listing to a Friend

I never wanted this to get out of control and as I've said before I really like Klipsch speakers--I think they sound fantastic, and after hearing a well set up dedicated home theater with HERITAGE's I was very very impressed. This post became inane at a point because all I kept saying is go listen to things and decide on that basis, and yet people still kept saying things that really don't prove much except that this is a klipsh board and there are some Fanatics on here. I'm sure I could go to a Def Tech board out there post the same question and get an equal number of fanatics saying the exact same things about their speaker of choice. Its personal prefrence. I don't berate anyone for likeing what they like, nor have I ever said that Klipsch speakers are bad in any way. It just came down to what wowed me and what didn't. I like the bigger def tech speakers but they don't work well for very large open spaces--horns do. they project more. its the primary reason why nightclubs use horns for their speakers, they fill space incredibly well. But--my room is about 17 x 20 and my def techs do a fantastic job. It is a living room, not a dedicated theater. This is a crucial difference. Like it or not, Def techs are a very highly rated speaker and have won numerous awards for their sound quality. And, again--like it or not, quite a few home theater places use Def Tech's for their display rooms, and many many professional critics rave about their sound. Does this make it sound any differently to your ear? obviously, it does not. I'm merely trying to show that there are lots of people out there that really think Def Tech do a great job in all arenas, and they are not "ok" or "crap" or whatever else people have called them. I'm sure someone will say that the reviewers say that because of all the advertising Def Tech does, and how its a big speaker "conspiracy" and etc etc, but does that mean that every major audio publication is "in on it"? because, I can find reviews for DEF TECH in most major magazines, and NOT A SINGLE ONE has said bad things about these speakers. I haven't heard their new 7000 line yet, and these could be awful because they did redesign them, but the BP3000 and down were quite nice. And linking them to BOSE...well...thats just low. and in regards to this whole "teritorrial" nonsense about this being a klipsch site and blah blah blah--thats just childish. I like to talk to people that know their equipment, pure and simple. People on here have shown me that they have an expertise that is worth listening to. If you don't want to talk to me, or feel I have a valid opinion because I don't own the same speakers as you...well...isn't that a bit rediculous? in regard to me being "told to throw my 2 cents in" I follow this board because I was invited to a klipsh gathering. I was quiet at first because i thought that I would be blasted for not owning Klipsch products, but I wasn't and I was greeted well, and was able to speak with some very wonderful, interesting, fun people. And these people, despite their absolute love of Klipsch products still were able to maintain an element of impartiality which I had absolute respect for. I guess the initial question should have never been asked on a "klipsh" forum, but instead a "speaker" forum, because it seems that people cannot look past what they already possess. there have been a few posts in this thread that I have nothing but respect for, and to those people I thank you for your well founded opinions and casual take on the question, not to mention your honest answer. But, to those of you who describe how much you enjoy your system by putting down people that don't have the same thing--your opinions are meaningless and flawed to me.

---------------- no one is claiming that they are experts....just saying our opinions on the topic...... and we "experts" happen to own klipsch...on a klipsch forum..... and the original question was asking about klipsch speakers compared to his buddy's def tech speakers..... so...what's your point? ---------------- I think his point was that its all OPINION. which is exactly it--if someone likes one thing over another that's their right. In response to the movie theater aspect: THe people that do movies and soundtracks actually do not use KLIPSCH--they use B & W or M & K or WILSON AUDIO, and the enviorment is COMPLETELY different than your home. It is compairing essentially a PA system to a home system--which is a bad compairsion. I know someone who calibrates movie theater systems for a living and when I talked to him about DEF TECH speakers, he didn't make a MR. Yuck face or anything like that--in fact he said that he liked the way they sounded, and that their honest frequency response rivals some very pricey speakers. I do agree that because you can't position the subs that may be a shortcoming--and I will also say that EVERY speaker with an integrated subwoofer besides the DEF TECHS don't sound very good at all ( I did like Canton's though-) like, I listened to RFs next to POLK powered towers and the POLKs made me sick that they cost the same as the Klipsh, and I wanted to puke on the salesperson that even attempted to sell them to me. but I like the sound of the DEF TECHS for Small to mid size rooms. Now, for a theater sized room--or something bigger than a standard living room I would say that some of the best sound I've heard was from the HERITAGE series--Horns fill space very well, but I think they NEED that space to sound their best. If I were to build a dedicated room--I'm not sure if I would use DEF TECHs for it, especially if I had the money--but I will say everyone that's heard my gear has been very impressed with the sound, and I've played some great 'audiophile' grade music pieces on them-and they really do sound fantastic. I'd like to give them more power though so they could really shine. I don't think DEF TECHs kick klipsch *** or anything like that--I think they both sound better than 90% of the gear out there regardless of price-they just produce sound differently, and in turn have different appeals. I like my def techs for movies. I fell in love with them the first time I heard them, they made listening fun for me. end of story--I had heard Klipsch, Phase Tec (I use to own a phase tec speaker--fantastic sound-but they couldn't drive hard...) Polk, Canton, B & W, M & K, Eclipse, and numerous others and I just liked the way the Def Tech's sounded--they don't do well in open spaces though--they need to radiate off of walls. hearing them at a show will not do them justice. If I had a choice and money was no object I'd have B & W 802s or Heritage...well..actually if money was no object I'd have WILSON audio...and all ADA components...someday...

Not to be a jerk or anything but I can put a picture up of some BP7000s and write CASE CLOSED". that proves NOTHING! in fact--the DEF TECHS, in their piano gloss black or cherry finish are quite nice to look at--much SMALLER footprint than those that you posted and honestly are technically much more advanced. AGAIN! I SAY...its a matter of choice. I really believe that many people don't care what they sound like so long as they say "KLIPSCH" on them somehwere. case closed...thank god you're not a lawyer. and if you are....jesus...I'm sorry for your clients, and I would recommend them to go to a better lawyer-like lionel Hutz on the Simpsons..... Sorry about the hostility but thats how I respond to inane comments.

---------------- On 2/12/2004 3:42:18 PM KeesGuy wrote: ==> the DYNAMICS of DEF TECH are amazing I think you're going to have a hard time trying to convince those around here that Def Tech's are more dynamic than Heritage Klipsch. Good Luck though! -Jim ---------------- I'm really not trying to convince anyone--For theater sound the Heritage don't have enough punch for my prefrences, and for the price of them I would be auditioning all sorts of things. my Def techs at 1/3 the cost of heritage speakers can sound pretty damn good-though they do not have that incredible sound stage that the heritage's have. I appreciate the fact that you didn't "bash" my opinion--thank you for that. there's nothing worse than turning something "owned" into a personal attack in some way. People take this stuff too seriously sometimes...its just frekin' speakers man.....

this is a sad thing. I will say this though: Nakamichi car CD players are the BEST HANDS DOWN IN THE WORLD. no one builds a audiophile grade deck like Nak decks--no one. check out their models--they are supurb in every way.

I was told to throw my two cents in here so I will... I own a full 7.1 system of DEF TECHs with BP 2000TLs being my front towers and I'll give out my views on them. FIRST: I'd like to say that many of the above posts really say very little except some strong, unfounded opinions, and some very naive ideas about why they advertise so much. Sandy Gross, the creator of DEF TECH does like bass--theres no question about that--I'll never argue this point, BUT! we're not talking CERWIN VEGA here...the def techs are a outstanding speaker, reviewed countlessly time and time again and have won MANY audio awards for sound quality. I think Klipsch sound great, but do I like my DEF TECHs better--yes. I do, particularly when compairing at the similar price point. Now then: do the def techs sound as good as the HERITAGE line by Klipsch--not for music or soundstage presence by any strech of the imagination. I'm hearing all sorts of things here, but very few people have given the best advice of it all--GO LISTEN TO THEM BOTH AND MAKE A CHOICE. despite what all the critics say (keep in mind this is a KLIPSCH site and I've heard VERY FEW impartial views here) and all the reviews say, listen to them and decide for yourself--which ones do you enjoy more?? which ones make you forget your listening to speakers and let you concentrate on how everything sounds, or gets you lost in the movie. as to the silly point about Klipsch being in movie theaters and DEF TECH not--consider WHAT klipsch are in most movie theaters--they're most certainly a much higher model than the RF series, AND consider the size of a movie theater vs. a living room. THis arguement has no logical basis what so ever--its like compairing a Nightclub or PA system to a home system--pointless. you want something that will sound good in your enviorment, its as simple as that. my bottom line personally Klipsch horns at their highest model level are amazing--no doubt in my mind. At the RF level--they sound pretty damn good, especially at that price point. I think the Klipsch are a warmer sound, but that warmth removes a bit of sharpness. what kind of music do you listen to--that warm sound doesn't sound good with electronic music, but makes Jazz absolutely shine. this is something to consider. as for movies--in a home theater enviorment--the DYNAMICS of DEF TECH are amazing--the sound they produce is sharp and quick with lots of contrast, they can produce sounds that are so sudden that they make you gasp at times. Klipsch sound great, but that warmth doesn't give me that edgy sound that I love for movies. In the end-listen to them both--play some different stuff in them and see what you prefer. Let all the hype fall to the side. if you want to read reviews there are plenty out there, and I will say that every review I've ever read of Def Tech products has be spectacular (and I've read more than a few when I was doing my speaker research) and when my decisions were being made about speakers I choose DEF TECH because I got an amazing deal on them. My choices were however down to two speaker companies, DEF TECH and Klipsch. So I would believe you are definately on the right track with your selection process. Good luck to you--I hope you find your best speaker!

I saw this post, and being someone who has a higher end "flagship" type reciever I have to say. GO WITH SEPERATES! the ONLY reason I didn't go with ROTEL is because what I wanted at the time wasn't as available as it is now (the 49tx had all the sound selections that I wanted and was 7.1, when very little else was--that was 2 1/2 years ago...) AND i got my receiver for 2200.00 NIB vs. the 3800.00 that the local shop wanted for it. had I the budget of 3k and up---ROTEL would have been my choice. DON'T buy a receiver if you don't have to.--seperates are the way to go.

yes, its a fan---it gets way too warm in there during the summer (a nice place--but no central air ) Its not always running--usually I only turn it on to circulate the air in the summer for the Air conditioner.

what a great post: People take everything way too seriously lately. One time, in the 4th quarter while I was working at a rather large finance company that specialized in Healthcare equipment leasing I was in the GM's office with the the Global ops. manager. Everyone in this big "mahogony everything" office was ready to pull their hair out, and everyone was yelling at each other about something, when my friend says "hey...its just medical equipment..." They all stopped what they were doing and paused long enough to consider throwing my truth-telling friend out the 4th story window. At this same office, a floor below a salesman, who had ALREADY sold, 103 million dollars worth of financial product that year at 2% commission, was making a 30 year old woman who made 35,000 dollars a year cry because she wasn't moving fast enough--it was 10:30 at night at the time. Like I said...too seriously. Thank god for ceiling fans....

I've gotta agree with Dpayne here, at that price point you should avoid receivers. I have a top of the line receiver and if I had that price range when I started i would have went with seperates (I got my receiver for 2k less than you can buy it in most stores) Lexicon is spectacular gear--the standard that most are judged by. sunfire is nice stuff, and bob carver knows what he's doing. for that price you should look at Lexicon or Argon, or the flagship pre/pro from Rotel and some great amps...I've heard Lexicon and parasound together, and they sounded great...also, if you can take a look at PROCEED and Bel Canto....

I wanted to post a few more pics--a close up of the gear rack, as well as 3 shots of the front tower--showing the d'appolito arrays( four 6.5" woofers, two 1" aluminum tweeters--a set of 2 woofs, 1 tweet on the front and back of the speaker) and powered 15" 1000 watt sub, but I couldn't post multiple pics it seems... neat speakers--I dig em' anyway... I need more electrical current in my apartment though... let me know what ya' think (oh, and I do know that there is a chair in front of the right tower--but I've got nowhere else to go with it...)

The best DTS disc I've EVER heard was the QUEEN disc set that I heard at JMot's house. it was actually mastered by DTS. I don't really like queen, but bohemian rahpsody pretty much blew my skirt up in every way imagineable...really spectacular. movies--Gladiator is a good one, believe it or not, FINDING NEMO is pretty intense for sound--its all digital, and it shows--that DOCDVD site posted above is a good one--you can also go to the DTS and THX sites and they list all the films available and what format they are in. here's the links.. http://www.dvdtherapy.com/dts_list.php http://www.dtsonline.com/home&car/hometheatre/dvd-titles.php http://www.thx.com/mod/products/dvdFind.html

sub 1000 bucks--best center. Definitive Technology C/L/R/ 3000. bang for the buck, you can't beat it. check the stats, and go listen to one...amazing. BUT!! you need timbre matched speakers or they all will sound "wrong" when combined with whatever towers you have. http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/clr/clr.html C/L/R 3000 Specifications: Dimensions: 25"W x 8 5/16"H x 16"D. Response: 19-30 kHz. Nominal Imp.: 4-8 ohms. Rec. amp: 20-400 watts. Built-in sub amp: 150 watts RMS. Drivers: 10" sub, 2 cast-basket 6.5" bass/midranges, 1" pure aluminum dome tweeter. Auto On/Off: Signal sensing. Finish: piano gloss black or golden cherry. Tri-wireable. Retail: $999 ea Audio Video Hi-Fi Grand Prix 2002 Center Channel Speaker-of-the-Year

The center channel speaker is CRITICAL to good sound as most movies put 70% of the dialogue source through there. you will see a RADICAL improvement by changeing this speaker before you change your receiver. Hooking up the best gear to your center channel won't make the speaker sound that much better. Bang for the buck change your speaker before anything else. I could hook up a Lexicon with a proceed amp to your center channel and it will still sound like the same center channel you have right now. do yourself a favor and get better speakers first, you won't regret it.

Don't skip looking at ROTEL or NAD. ROTEL is some very nice equipment--it just doesn't have all the bells and whistles of some of the Japanese stuff, but would you rather have good simple gear that sounds great or be able to have audio options like "Jazz in a cave that seats 40 people" or "rock inside a moose lodge". I myself have the Pioneer Elite 49tx and I love it, but I NEVER have listened to any of the 30 different audio enviorment options, and when I bought the unit it was the only receiver that could do THX-ULTRA2 or full 7.1. I would have gladly traded those unessesary audio options for a purer sound--my NAD receiver from 1985 sounds better in 2 channel than my pioneer ever could..

I just noticed that no one ever talks about BETTERCABLES.com, even though their reviews and such are spectacular. their silver serpent line is quite nice for the price. feel free to blast me at this point--I went with bettercables and they were very nice to me, and I'm very pleased with their products thus far. way nicer than monster...

I posted in the "home theater" area, but I wanted to post here as well to once again say thank you to everyone for their hospitality this last Saturday. John: thank you for having me and letting me play a few tunes! Great setup--I can only hope to get something like this someday... Damonpayne: thanks for taking me!--an excellent experience! Boommac: thanks for the great music--"WAHOO" is a great piece, and something I will look for in the future. I spoke with my former roommate about some music, and he laughed when I mentioned SON RA. I mentioned some of the stuff and he had some suggestions--I'll get these to you, you may really like them. I still think you should definately check out RASHON ROLAND KIRK...my spelling may be off...but good none the less. Oh, the Queen DVD which was mastered by DTS was the one of the best examples of full channel use and DTS capabilities that I've ever heard. I don't really like queen that much, but I will say that the BOHEMIAN RAHPSODY clip was amazing. The other spectacular tests that I've seen I don't have a name for, nor are they commercially available--but If I can get copies ever I will definately share what I find... I posted some more in-depth type stuff in the "home theater" post, like my opinions and such, but here I just wanted to give a round of thanks to all the people that made the day enjoyable. Thank you all! Ryan

I am D$s friend, and I want to thank John and everyone for having me over. Like I mentioned later in the evening to the people present, I was impressed at both the sound system and the cordialness of everyone present--I myself do not own Klipsch speakers (except for my computer pro media set) and I had never heard the Heritage line before. It was definately a great experience. they have a soundstage that is really quite incredible, as well as a warmth that makes music listening a real treat for the ears. very non-fatigueing--I didn't find them as "bright" as some say Khorns are or as some of their other speakers are, which was for me a pleasant surprise. John's Theater is quite nice, and well constructed and once again, I have to comment about how impressed I am at the performance of the SVS subwoofer line. I'm actually a bit jealous Again I thank John and everyone there for their hospitality. the last great theater that I've heard was powered by B & W 802s and musically it honestly wasn't as good as what the Heritage speakers produced. I've heard people talk about "accuracy" in music, often electrostatic fans bring this up, but regardless of accuracy, be it there or not, the K-horns just made me enjoy the music more. I found myself analyzing the sound less than simply sitting and enjoying it. this, for me, is the most important reason to own good sound equipment. the 802's though spectacular in their own right were not as memorable of an experiance as the Khorns were, particularly in the K-horn's wonderful production of some fantastic jazz as well as some of my more esoteric electronic music composers, such as LAMB and BEAUMONT HANNANT.(thanks to everyone for putting up with my music!!) I would like to watch more theater with John's system to get more of a notion in that setting, because I will say that I use to hear the 802s in a home theater movie enviorment and they really left a mark on me in that regard(Lexicon, Parasound equip). From the little that I heard while watching "GLORY" I was impressed none the less, and I can only hope someday to be able to reproduce that experience in my own home. As far as a "convert" I'm not sure--they were spectacular, this is definately not an issue that is up for debate-but scaleing the speakers down a notch in their product line gets me once again to really love what I already have, and at those price points it becomes very subjective as to what one enjoys. If I had to choose between what I have and the Refrence line It would be a tough choice for me to be honest-although in all fairness if I hadn't got such an AMAZING deal (I paid 2500 for all the speakers including shipping..Each tower that I have costs that retail...) on my ENTIRE speaker set I would have gone with Klipsh anyway...they are hands down the best speaker in my price range. but, nonetheless--the heritage speakers are some of the best music producers that i've heard in quite a while--it also doesn't hurt that it was all analog Mcintosh equipment as well....together---a system that I definately wish to have someday....I thank everyone for allowing me to hear it! oh--what I have FYI: Definitive Technology BP2000TLs, C/L/R 2000 center, (4) BPX surrounds, powered by: PIONEER ELITE VSX-49TX Flagship receiver, Denon 2800 DVD player, all Bettercable.com SILVER cables, Mits 55" WS-55819, Panamax 500 DBSsurge protector/line conditioner plugged in downstream to a BRICK WALL from Price Wheeler