boa12

thanks op!

mp, & of course if you have the budget & space & want even more, you could go khorn or lascala fronts, lascala (or heresy for space) center, & move your heresy pair to surround duty.

heresy all the way around. along w/ a nice sub - great sys for both HT & multi-channel music. turn the center hersey upside down if right above tv. that way tweet/mid are closer to it & woof further away to prevent magnetic interference.

i still haven't figured out all the complexities of that which came w/ my olympus d510. it will resize though & that's all i need so far.

just, & me a nice big snake? i can't even get my klipsch standard to show.

i know jim, but adapt, adapt. good comes from tech innovation? i think?

trade w/ john warren.

john warren is a chick? or is that some system breakdown? i vote for hope too. though realize indy is a drive for gil. & i wanna party w/ gil.

see the thread i started & just posted to on "bass management". should be pretty comprehensive. you should probably just hook the sub out to the rsw line ins, set sub:yes & all speaks to small in the denon & its crossover to 80hz. disable/switch out the crossover on the rsw or turn it all the way up like you have it. then the bass control setting fronts+LFE, etc. won't matter. only when you set your fronts large will it matter. but if you do that & use "fronts+LFE" then you may get muddy bass like many have found, because this sends the fronts' low bass also to your sub. if you set "lfe only", then your sub gets only lfe - no low bass from the fronts channels. but it depends a lot on your own tastes, listening habits, room, etc which to set things at. takes some experimenting (unless the above sounds good enough to you on all material).

on my Time Warner digital cable. last night i ordered "Mothman Prophecies" (fair) at the time i wanted. you can play, stop it, pause, fast forward or rewind like watching a dvd. i just go to channel 101 on my dig box dial. they had tons of older movies & new releases available. cost for this newer movie was same as what Blockbuster charges for dvd rental. they even have free stuff & some older at $1.95. you get 8 hours to get it watched for the paid movies. this is big. no need to go to Blockbuster any more as long as they have it on TW - " I-control". & no more late fees. iow, no need to get off the couch. only downside is they're not yet on DD 5.1. just DD2.0/prologic decoding. i called TW & put in a constructive complaint on this. sounds like dbs has 5.1 on PPV movies. don't know if they have this VOD yet. suppose they could if you have the phone connection to send them info, but don't know how well that works or would work.

ej, yeah, right on, hopefully we can find the truth. as far as what yammy does for LFE its really down to this (unless they tell you more in the manual): "-Select the "SW" setting if you are going to use a subwoofer. The LFE signals are directed to the sub. -Select the "Main" setting if you do not use a subwoofer. The LFE signals are directed to the Main speakers. -Select the "Both" setting if you use a subwoofer and you want to mix the Main channel low frequency sound signals with the LFE signals." where does it say for "both" that low bass & LFE are mixed in the mains, rather than the sub? my contention is they are taking from the sub's perspective since this is a subwoofer control. the only place they mention mains is in the "main" setting, which appears to coincide w/ the sub:no on most receivers & prepro, & which is the only setting where LFE goes to the mains/fronts because no sub is then attached to the sub preout. so it looks like yammy uses the same common algorithm as all other makers' dsp. yes this is a misnomer that causes much confusion. most call it sub out which also handles LFE. but some call it LFE out when it also handles sub low bass to the sub. then some submakers call it LFE in when its also handling low bass. confusin to many. that's why that pdf i posted above is a good primer for explaing that sub low bass & LFE are completetly different & how they are. "Ok clarification on my line of thinking: .1 = all low fequency signals sent from the amp through the sub output. LFE = Low Frequency Effects encoded in DD 5.1, DTS, Etc and is a discrete channel that the sub output discretly utilizes the .1 output when listening to these source materials .1 does not equal LFE The .1 in 5.1 does not mean that .1 signals are unique to the format nearly that the .1 channel is a discrete channel and not derived from the other 5. Dolby labs defines .1 as low frequencies out of 1 being the full harmonic range of a signal .1 being the low end of it. Please note that I don't think I ever used .1 and LFE together unless it was applicable." i would call what you're calling .1, low bass. that means any low bass determined by small setting on any of the 2-5 channels at the crossover (fixed on yours at 90hz on down) or by the "both" setting which sends low bass from the front channels set large also to your sub preout in other words .1 is the discrete LFE channels bandwidth. iow, .1 & LFE are the same. your yammy has it labeled sub out. but it also handles LFE only to it unless you use the "main" setting which then sends lfe to the main/fronts channels (speaker connections & fronts preouts). iow, if you don't use the sub out connection & set to either "SW" (LFE only to sub) or "both" (low bass & LFE to sub), you lose your LFE because its only going to the sub out. the yammy manual should point out that if you're not using a sub on the sub out, you should set "main" to get LFE from the fronts by using those preouts &/or speaker connections. this makes sense because a sub should be much more capable of handling both low bass & LFE. on the other hand, front/main speakers are not as capable of handling both low bass & LFE. that's why i brought up the intital post idea. using this way i figured you in effect used the front preouts to the outboard crossover & then to sub, to handle the low bass w/ a variable crossover. then you run another connection in parallel from the sub out to the sub to handle LFE & not be filtered out by a crossover. i think that would work to help w/ the problem of a high fixed crossover of like 80 or 90hz in many receivers & when you want the fronts large & sub filtered lower at like 50hz for the LOW BASS. as for LFE you want that full .1 range going unimpeded to the sub. but still to be determined if that works i guess.

j, well now we're talkin seperate pre/pro. call me crazy but i think my b&k ref 30 sounds as good as the mc-1 for less. though lex does have some real nice added features. don't you just love these what sounds best to whom, which receiver should i buy threads? myself, i'd bring 'em & demo & hear for myself. ------------------ My Home Systems Page

dean, yeah but that also requires getting off the couch - a huge cost for me. don't worry. i have a girlfriend. that requires going out every now & then. ------------------ My Home Systems Page

as for a receiver w/ the sound & features I like, i'd look at 1st at b&k 305 or 307, & then denon 4802 or 5803. but that's me. marantz has a good sound & they say is upgradable, but it has poor Bass mgmt imho. would be fine if you use no sub woofer (like i do w/ my sr8000 in the stereo room). ------------------ My Home Systems Page

m00n, yeah but you can add all those power amp(s) to the 4802 as well. you just don't have to to do 6-7.1. then again i'm sure your 520 cost a lot less, maybe even w/ the outbaord amp. ------------------ My Home Systems Page

stephen, you mean highly unlikely now? for awhile a few months back they were selling a lot of 10s & 30s. may have run out now though, but i have a feeling they'll get more at some time. hard tellin. i got a C7 for rear center from them for around $270 total. no problems so far. ------------------ My Home Systems Page

i think it is. really fills in the hole between the surrounds. like the center in front fills in the hole between the fronts, in a way. the denon 4802 has 7 sets of speaker terminals & the amp to drive up to 7 directly. you can use an outboard amp to drive any channels w/ it, but w/ the denon 4802 (or european equivalent) you don't have to like m00n/OP do for adding rear surround w/ his HK 520. iow, the 4802 has a 7-channel amp. ------------------ My Home Systems Page

"Like I said before in my a previous post I can get the best of both worlds by using the pre outs. I also get the sub for 2-cahnnel stero listening ie not using any of the DSP's to simulate 5.1 and I can set my crossover levels at the sub above the 90hz which is fixed on the sub out of the reciever. The KSW-12 works overtime producing all of the bass between 120hz and 90hz that it would not get if I used only the sub out." ej, if you're using the front preouts to the sub instead of using the sub preout, i'd think you want the setting on "Main". that's the only setting where LFE (the .1 channel) is sent to the front preouts. if you set it to "Both" or "LFE" connecting this way, you lose LFE all together because its being sent only to the sub out. & when you do it this way, i'd think you'd want to dial down the sub's crossover to 40-60hz. that way it jives best w/ the front speaks since both are getting the same low bass & you don't cut out all upper lfe because its also going to your front speaks via the speaker connections. ------------------ My Home Systems Page This message has been edited by boa12 on 09-26-2002 at 02:14 PM

hopefully to inform & not hassle or confuse, but better clear this up: "You can rest assured that the .1 channel output will cross over the signal at a set HZ unless your amp has bass management for the .1 channel." I think/hope you mean "sub output" in place of ".1 channel output" and "low bass" in place of ".1 channel". again, the dif between low bass & LFE (.1 channel). bass mgmt works w/ low bass. all bass mgmt works w/ really is low bass. as far as LFE, it either sends it to the fronts only (MAIN), OR to the sub only (the other two settings). "I would also say that probably 99.9% of all amps will not mix the front bass with the LFE to the sub in 5.1 mode because the .1 is a "discrete" channel", if it wasn't then why would you need six cables in for 5.1?" actually in 5.1 as well, about all do mix the front/low bass from other channels set small w/ LFE in the sub, & when your fronts are set large & you use the "Both" setting. the only way its true that the sub gets no low bass from other channels is when you set the speaks large & the sub setting to LFE only (or the equivalent moniker by yammy). "You wouldn't you would only need 5 and the amp would figure out what to send to the .1 channel, the .1 channel is encoded in the signal." you have a point. but the bass mgmt dsp are configured to send low bass to the sub as well as LFE, unless you want to run speaks large. but then many of us have found poor bass by doing that, especially on 2-channel music. guess they leave it up to the mixers to put most of the low frequency sounds in 5.1 in the .1 channel/LFE & sub only so as not to muddy up the sub w/ both. at least not both to the sub at the same time. "Also on all receivers when you use a DSP or Pro-Logic to create a 5.1 sound the amp is deriving the signal sent to the sub(.1 channel) from the mains and crossing it over at the setting you set the amp to or the fixed hz." .1 channel is LFE & is a discrete channel. the receiver/dsp does not derive it from the material. the .1 LFE is already encoded on the material as a seperate channel. again, if you substitute "low bass" for ".1 channel you are correct. "Whats more, 99.9% of all recievers will not send a signal out of the .1 output when you are listening in 2 channel stereo mode." that's pretty true, but again i'd use the term "sub output" in place of .1 output. stereo material doesn't have a .1 channel. when you use this mode on most it plays just the front speakers full-range. since you'd not want to use this mode w/ 5.1 material, i won't even get into that. "Now I agree this thread has become very confusing but it's not rocket science folks." I agree its confusing. But Bass Management is probably the most complex issue in dealing w/ units & their dsp. ------------------ My Home Systems Page

dupe ------------------ My Home Systems Page This message has been edited by boa12 on 09-26-2002 at 01:57 PM

"The amp is set to "Both" on the front and speaks are set to large. Now the fronts are getting all the normal signal from the front channels and the .1 LFE is mixed in." this is where i degress. i think this the same as like "fronts+lfe" on any other receiver. that is its from the sub's perspective - IT gets low bass from fronts set large as well as ALL the LFE (no LFE goes to fronts). only way LFE goes to the front speakers (terminals &/or preouts), is when you set "Main" which is like setting Sub:No on most other receivers. attached pdf is a good primer on LFE vs Low Bass. "-Select the "Both" setting if you use a subwoofer and you want to mix the Main channel low frequency sound signals with the LFE signals. keywords - subwoofer, mix, Main, low, LFE; that is the mixing is being done in the sub. not in the fronts. I think yammy is confusing people by calling low bass "low frequency sound". but they don't mean LFE here. they mean low bass from the other channels besides the .1 (Low Frequency Effects). can be pretty confusin. ------------------ My Home Systems Page This message has been edited by boa12 on 09-26-2002 at 01:56 PM

i'd just keep your on www.ubid.com (search "klipsch"). if some more pop up there that's a great deal (even w/ the steep shipping charge) for new w/ full factory warranty. if you love the 10s you really should love the 30s. real nice w/ high power amp/receiver to drive those big dual woofs. ------------------ My Home Systems Page

i meself advocate using a direct radiating like the rc-7 or rf-7 for the rear surround duty. unless you have an extremely wide space between the side surrounds. the rc-7 would match up directly w/ the front rc-7 center for fly-over effects. also perfect timbre match to the side rs-7. since the rs-7 are dispersing wide for fly-over, front-back & vice versa effects, the rear directs in effect tie or anchor the wide dispersion to the rear center. & for 6.1 discrete, most effects in the 6th channel are directional. such as a noise directly behind your head, or when a plane flys directly over your head from front center to rear center. really the best way to find out is to demo the different varities at your place. ------------------ My Home Systems Page

pb, no doubt. actually rather these work arounds the best solution is something w/ an adjustable digital crossover in the dsp imho. that way the big speaks & sub aren't cut too high, & you get the LFE going to the sub only thru the sub out which i found creates much more dynamic LFE. take a look at the denon 4802 or 5803, or the B&K 305 or 307. i have a b&k ref 30 pre/pro & their receivers have the same bass mgmt- adjustable from 20hz on up in 5hz increments. plus even the slopes are adjustable. great sound w/ klipsch speaks too. ------------------ My Home Systems Page