SET12

Hi Thebes, First I'd like to say I have enjoyed many of your post's. To start out here's a link to one persons venture. http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/Index/burson_opam4.html I think your going to run in to many opinions.Very Pro for and not so Pro! And personally I don't know that I would use them in an inexpensive CDP with out a hearty supply upgrade. Simply because the current requirements are typically 4 times more per module 5ma vs 20-25ma for the Bursons. I have heard reports of the Burson's sounding lean in some CDP's! I definitely beleive that its supply related! Most CDP's barely have half of what I had stock in my CDP. And as you can see mine is very beefy, in fact my CDP approaches 40lbs. I feel IC Op Amps have improved dramatically from what I have read. But I will tell you the Bursons are a World Class Op Amp no doubt in my mind! The resolution is simply astounding for me! Driving my 2 stage power amps CDP direct does tell me a lot! Along with World Class crossover components in my Fortes. I have a very simple but power full system. I regard the Bursons like a Thoroughbred race horse not an once of fat on them just pure muscle with the power supply being the jockey! What do I get? I get a fantastic sound stage that is substantially wider than my 18ft living room wall. Part of this is due to my amps being able to portray this as well. But I will tell tell you I had a Opus 21 here and it just couldn't compete with my CDP in this regard. I also have great depth from the Burson's I had it before but not with the level of resolve at the back part of the stage especially. The $4000 Opus sounded flat in comparison. My friend has gotten some $1700 worth of mods done so it should be interesting to hear it again. One thing I can say about the Opus is it is extremely smooth. Smoother than my CDP substantially it seems, but that maybe related to resolving power which which is not quite to the level of the Sony Burson that I have, but to come back for an Opus Sony session again I will have the Burson low jitter clock installed which should be smoother sounding. Another thing about the Opus was its foundation to the music! Here the Burson Thoroughbred as I call them or it just pulled ahead! In fact it wasn't even a comparison as it was just obvious. Another thing I enjoy is the textures of music! I even enjoy listening to CD's made from analog master tapes. I enjoy listening to the grain of the tape going by the tape heads which is so easy to pick out from course to fine grain. My goal was to upgrade my CDP to give me some of the $10,000 CDP performance that a few of my friends have. And I feel the player can hold its own with any $5000 CDP that I have heard easy enough while chasing the higher end stuff yet. I bought my player new in a box when it was 3yrs old for just $600 and now I have another $400 stuck into it. I have certainly gotten my mileage from it and not to mention a lot of bang for the buck! Cheers SET12

Very Nice! Here's a pair of mine 23 step about $50 off of ebay SET12

I couldn't see much really, I couldn't get access to the manual as they wanted me to fill out a form full of stuff. And yes I to have some shunt attenuators and I agree they are a far superior way of controlling the volume. Perhaps you could post some pictures? The power supply is nice but for me regulators which use feedback make the sound barren for me. It looks like your supply uses 30,000ufs of a high quality caps which is good, I also use high quality as well but with 150,000ufs isolated and in various sizes for a very natural relaxed sound. Regulators are anything but typically IMO. As far as mains deviation I'll put it this way like I once read in a BAT White Paper on supplies for their preamp's. " If you were in a row boat and ten foot waves came a long you'd be swamped! But an Aircraft Carrier would never be swayed." Although my CDP is still using them in various capacities. I have defeated the feedback in a pair of discrete regulators that supply the Burson's while maintaining the DC for them. The result was I a substantial increase in warmth. The Dac's run off the same supply but they have their own regulator. The ripple that was on the supply for the Burson's using the regulators is now matched with the feedback eliminated and using a 10x increase in the supply. And now I'm really going to check into getting the Burson's to run on 20 volts by eliminating the Discrete Regulators Series Pass DCR which drops the voltage to 15 volts. It is my experience that low DCR paths greatly enhance dynamics "its about moving energy" This true of my SET Amps and not to mention my Klipsch Forte's by using an 8AWG Air Core Inductor one of the worlds largest manufactured. The bass is darn near like having a sub but better IMO because the Inductor covers more range 32hz to 700hz vs 20hz to 120hz mid and upper bass definition is phenomenal. Never again will I use wimpy inductors. In the end everything works together. Its all a lot of fun DIYing stuff and to each our own. But, it's what I have learned in the process of DIYing that has brought satisfaction of our hobby to a new level for me without having to spend thousands! Cheers SET12

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It works for me! Driving CDP direct to my 10 watt Mono Blocks. One thing about Flea Powered Tube Amps ! Many are wimpy simply by design and do not have to be. Mostly due to slow supplies of having to much DCR in the supply path. These are nearly zero, no regulators or chokes or resistors, if one wants chokes one should use the lowest DCR possible IMO, remember a 1H choke is equal to 750 ohms ACR with a full wave rectified power supply. The above amps are more powerful "watt for watt" then many high powered SS amplifiers and this includes some 200 watt/channel designs. And surprisingly even sounding more extended in the frequency extremes then some SS amps. I can't tell you how many times I have LOL As to preamps, I don't use them mostly because they get the way, and because I can't afford a 5 to $10,000 linestage I had the opportunity to listen to the very popular Peach II a well made linestage, the first thing that I heard with it was a dramatic loss of transparency, as to dynamics it was loose and no more dynamic then what the Bursons were already doing. Its a lot of fun! Especially after 35yrs of audio. Cheers SET12

Hi consistent, I am not familiar with Cyrus players so I really don't know what to tell you there! My CDP also has a very beef supply as it has two "R" Core's for seperate Digital and Analog supplies. I do know this that the Bursons want voltage as well and 12 volts doesn't quite cut it with them I have heard. I have 15 volts after my discrete regulators and now that you got me thinking I might run them from the 20 volt supply bypassing the regulators altogether yeah, yeah thats an idea I'll have to look at! Anyway as much as I like them I probably should of tried some of the latest Op Amp IC's as reports are they are really getting to be good. So the simplest and cheapest thing to do is pull the IC's out an install IC sockets preferably one's with gold contacts. The thing about the Bursons is they use 20-25 ma each module total I have 6 modules thats 120-150 ma instead of IC's maybe pulling 30ma. So if you give what the Burson's want they will deliver! is my motto. Otherwise I don't think I would go with them meaning if the supply isn't up to the task I think they can come across as lean sounding from some reports that I have heard but they were slightly lean for me the first 100hrs. Then I added more supply along with a unique mod to my regulators eliminating the feedback which brought substantial warmth. If you install them you'll want to put a CD in the player and let it run a week straight before you give it a serious listen. Almost all the sites that I visited for people that really liked them had their power supply capacitance beefed up! Another area to play with is coupling caps which I haven't played with yet as they would be expensive as well due to the being some 10 uf's and I am picky today on my caps like my Duelunds on my crossovers are nearly $300 for two 1uf caps! The thing is if you decide to give them a shot you'll have to work with them! They are meant to be solder in and play but I don't think it's as simple as that! One thing is for sure! I sure am glad I got the schematic for my CDP as it makes things much easier. I am using the single modules for my Buffer out and a pair of Dual modules for the Analog filters. I started with the singles and went in stages. So they are very impressive after my efforts and they could be for you as well! It is possible to put the Bursons on a pined IC and use a socket for them which I have given thought to as well! In the end a person's mileage will vary but mine has taken me pretty far! My purpose was to give some updates to compete with $10,000 CDP's that I have heard, and does it? I think so! So you'll never know, unless you travel down that road! Here's some more photo's Making room for more capacitance by removing the Balanced Out Module and utilizing all available space. SET12

Hi, I'll go one step further here with some twists. I used the Bursons Discrete Op Amps in my Highly Modified Sony X77ES CDP to drive my amps direct. I have a thread here http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185971 I absolutely love them but the need break in time as Burson states. I also feel they benefit from large supplies (I increased mine on an already $2000 player by a factor of 10x) as they use a lot of current so my CDP has about 150,000uf's with the Burson's running off Muse electrolytic's which are as nice as premium film caps if I do say so myself. Resolution is astounding, like I can hear the texture of master tapes very easily! from coarse to fine grain. The stage is very wide and deep with excellent layering. The Bass is very articulate and very powerful. I leave my CDP on 24/7 so they now have a few thousand hours of idle time and of course lots of playing time. An Opus 21 was compared to my Burson Sony. The Opus was smoother but couldn't compete in all the Sony's areas of finest. Most notably resolution,depth and width and especially authority. My next mod to it is to install a new Burson clock for low jitter which should be a dramatic improvement as older CDP's have quite a bit of jitter as the Opus is very low. My supply mods are included in my thread which you may find very interesting! Cheers SET12 .

Performance has been has been my goal, which surpassed my imagination of what is possible. This is the latest version with Duelund VSF Copper Foil Cap and Duelund Graphite Tweeter Resistor Far superior to any resistors I have heard by a long shot. And these aren't even in series! The Brawn of this crossover is every bit as it looks in contrast to the stock network. Nothing was changed to speak of but the quality is heard and felt. In the end no doubt many Klipsch owners can benefit from mods like these. I for one could never live again with anemic sounding stock networks after experiencing these! So Tim if you have an interest in the KLF's, the KLF20's are the ticket at a substantial savings over the KLF30's for modification. My gut feeling is the Fortes modified as I have done would easily boot either of the KLF's within the Forte's working SPL range. Volume for volume, watt vs watt and if your interested in any of these for modifying I do have the schematics for all. It's amazing how much the networks come into play! Cheers SET12

Thanks seti, I wish you could to! Duelund was an amazing man I think. He passed away recently, he spent his life in search of the best sounding materials and I think he achieved many of his goals. Though some of his products are outrageously expensive but they are worth every penny! His resistors with North Creeks 8 AWG tweeter inductor have been just amazing with Bob Crites Titanium tweeters. And I can't say enough about the 8 AWG North Creek Inductors either! Bass on the Fortes is just like an Iron fist with substantial warmth. Consider this! The large inductors are $500 a pair. One could buy a sub! But I'd rather have what these do from 30hz to 700hz cause a sub is only good typically to 100hz. After experianceing these inductors I for one don't care to give up what I hear from 100hz to 700hz! to this day friends still turn to me and ask "where did that come from?" Been a while since I have been here, see pictures below Cheers SET12

Hi Tim, I own a pair of highly modified Forte's. Below is a link to my thread on AK that has received some 26,000 views. If you scroll down you'll see the latest pictures of my outboard crossovers along with my thoughts about the KLF20 and KLF30. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=12 If I had to do it over I would do the KLF20's as they would be considerably less expensive to modify using the same quailty parts as my Fortes. I haven't heard either of the KLF's so I can't really comment on their sound but I know they are capable. As to the Forte's and Forte II's I think I would chose the Forte's due to what some have told me is an elevated midrange in the Forte II's. As to my Forte's sound, I have owned many speakers in my 35 yrs of audio and none have given me more pleasure then the Fortes modified as I have done. I think of them as Super Charged and as one person put it they may be the best sounding Fortes in the world. After hearing the Klipsch Palladium P-39F's I had a smile on my face. As my investment was 1/10 of the 39's. I have been told that the Bass of my Fortes is like no Forte they have ever heard. It is pretty tight. Perhaps one of the best passives I have ever heard. The bass is strong enough that people often ask me where the sub woofers are! The Forte's have been for me like the famous horse Seabiscuit "the little guy that thinks he's the biggest horse out there" In the end I found the crossovers are one of the most neglected things in a speaker and are not to be taken for granted. You can find upgraded after market crossovers but nothing like these! Of course everything in the audio chain is relevent IMO. Cheers SET12

Thanks Al, So electrically its a mess! I have heard your work on LaScala's, it really transformed them for me to real performers. The mids were just way to elevated with the stock networks IMO. Thanks for all your Klipsch work! SET12

Al,When you said "The "theory" does not include propogation time difference between the drivers" Is this true for the stock network as well? Thanks SET12

jbeard, Thanks for your interest in my SET amps. Although of course there is more to just having a great pair of amps to work with. Such as a great front end whether analog or a digital front end. Every thing goes hand in hand IMO. As to my amps I don't have any specfic thread or post on them but I have been asked to post a thread on their build on an overseas forum. My SET amps would be considered very controversial in their design as I don't take the conventional design approach to amplifier design. They are very powerful watt for watt and can hold their own with many modern and vintage amplifiers whether tube or SS and often exceeding either or. My SET amps are designed to be used CD direct eliminating many issues for me. Although they can use line stage preamps I have found only one that I cared for. Often in comparisons of vs direct the direct wins over all and usually by a wide margin. My CDP though dated is heavly modified with a power supply that will rival many home theater recievers with 150,000uf's of supply, it also uses Burson discrete Op Amps and I will be installing a new Burson Clock in the near future to further enhance the players sonics. I have been amazed at comparing this 18yr old player to several $4000 plus CDP's. I am surprised at the interest in my CDP as I look here with some 4000 views http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185971&page=6 My Fortes crossovers are one of the key componentsin my system as well. As for impedance issues I personally don't have any issues with high output impeadance. I find there are other system issues that come into play for speed and control. One is Power supply DCR. When it is high it can make a SET sound lame and loose. As for an example read about this mans work! Which my amps parallel. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0801/fleshandblood.htm Another area is speaker Inductors and I am no fan of Iron Cores, even the most hardy of Iron Cores sounds anemic to me as well as Low AWG air cores used for low frequency drivers. Its a know wonder the 18 and 20AWG's with a 100ft of wire between the amp and the woofer voice coils sound the way they do. If there is anything I have learned its certainly this "That there is no single area that one can point to exclusively and say thats it!." It just all works together and when enough good is working together you have something. As to the amplifiers cost, yes they could be built for under 2K. If you'd like more info do contact me. SET12

If I had 2K to spend it would be these http://www.pacificvalve.us/MD3008A.html If you haven't heard one, be prepared for a shock. I certainly have a different opinion of what a SET amp can do for Fortes as well. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340 SET12

I liked what you had to say here " I had both a Wright WLA12 and a Peach at the same time, and ended up keeping the Wright. Now, to give my decision some context, I was using the preamps to drive a pair of Wright mono-blocks, so system synergy played a part. I wouldn't say one's better than the other per se, but that they're both strong performers. Passives are another option, system dependent, but for a modest price tag may out-perform big buck preamps." I had SWL's former Peach II here for a listen and it wasn't even a contest CDP direct for me. To much imformation was lost IMO. System dependent for passives is certainly very correct. What it takes is amplifier sensitivty and needs of system SPL levels. And unless one is using the gain of a preamp the volume control is nothing but attenuating the signal for instance if your using an audio taper control with a 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock position than 12 o'clock is attenuating 80% of the signal. and thats just one issue IMO. Talk about a preamp heres the finest I have ever heard this guy found one used I think it goes some 70lbs I gave him some of my impressions to say the least! http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=223359 Heres the manufacture http://www.firstsoundaudio.com/products.html BTW nice crossovers! Would mind seeing some bigger pictures then your avatar. SET12

Well Matt, What can I tell you? I can tell you what I did! As an audio buff with 35yrs experiance. You could build your own line stage. Myself I don't use one as I have enough gain and besides, I'd rather poor the money into a superior front end. I use my modified CDP direct as I find most preamps just get in the way and some of those are a few thousand dollars. There are a few good ones but like you I couldn't affoard them. I guessI could design and build one but I have found great satisfaction without one. You could build a Tube Power Amp at a fraction of what they cost new. And have something that is very rewarding. As to Forte II's there are those that feel their mids are a bit elevated in their opions and that the Forte I's are a bit better sounding. As far as the KLF 30's I would choose the 20's as I find I like the crossover better for moding. See My thread here for why I like the KLF20's http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=12 Good Luck on your Audio Journey! SET12 Enjoying Audio More now DIYing, Then ever before with Klipsch

I got a call from my neighbor that her pictures were moving on her walls. Our living rooms were separated by two garages between them I was playing some jazz with nice acoustic bass! SET12

Hey SWL, How are You? Heres the ticket That I'm thinking about for my DVD's and music from my computer! http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac1/ The biggest issue with outboard DAC's from USB connections is Jitter! They have tackled the problem and came up with a good solution A hard drive is as good as a $10,000 CD Transport or better No Errors! Very good reading here on USB connections! http://www.wavelengthaudio.com/preamps.html SET12

I can respect any hobby at just about any level. Have you ever had someone over and asked them to sit in the best location for the best sound only to be told to "Get a Life"? I have! The work I have done with my Forte crossovers is just as crazy as his but has brought as much satisfaction as his as well!

Congrats on the up grade! They are an amazing speaker IMO. I to love Bob's work! And others as well! I have taken the Fortes networks to what many would refer to as an Extreme! But they have given me back an extreme sense of satisfaction and pleasure to listen to! If you'd like to look at how far they can go! Take a look here as some 5000 others have also. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340 Cheers! SET12

You don't need to dream! You can build it! At a 1/10 of the cost I am enjoying some of the finest sound in my 35 yrs of audio most of it DIYed I had the pleasure of listening to Palladiums recently they were very nice especially their mids and highs world class IMO. After spending some $1500 on my outboard crossover networks and the cost of the rest of my system under $4,000 it can and does compete with systems 10 X as much. And I'm having a great time of it! If you care to look take a look at my networks and the people that have had a look at least! http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340 SET12

I haven't heard Bob's networks with these but I have heard the ALK's and IMO they are the only way to go cause IMO the mids are to elevated and with ALK's you can lower them to a more realistic level! You'll find the bass response improves dramaticly also IMO. You can build these yourself as well. ALK has the plans in his download section of his website. http://www.alkeng.com/klipsch.html SET12

mdeneen makes a good point! Its exactly what I do but I do have more than one source but all my sources have volume controls I could just wire up some additional jacks with high quality switchs but I mostly have been listening to CD as of late and occasionally run my DVD direct as well. My amps have are about a 1/2 volt in for 10 watts out my CD player will clip my amp at the 1-2 o'clock range on its volume control which goes from 7-5 most of my listening is from 9-11 with 12 o'clock being pretty loud 95db+. Of course I always knew direct was possible and I'm quite aware that preamps can add life and drama to music. I'm also quite aware that they can subtract as well which is what I found with a good FET line stage that I had that now has been sitting in my closet for several yrs now as I found that my CD direct was hands down far more dynamic and revealing so much so that I'm afraid its going to take a 5-$10,000 line stage to convince me to use one! I recently had a good $2,000 tube line stage that a friend brought over for a listen. I held my breath as I knew if I liked it I'd be designing one for myself! But as it was, It just couldn't compete in my system which has a high degree of resolve. Its amazing what simple signal paths can reveal! Doing direct allows one to sink more funds towards a better source as well. It really works well for me! Good Thread! Cheers SET12

I'm with James! "Grab the Mac" It will also retain more value! Mac has an outstanding reputation among among Klipsch enthusiasts! Being a tube man myself I can tell you the Mac's are some of the closest SS to tube gear there is and are just plain "Sweet" [Y] SET12