ClaudeJ1

Yes, so if you keep that looking the same, it makes no difference how you fold it. If you look at Bill Fitzmaurice's Tuba HT or the Tuba HT Low Profile. The pefmance is the same with different folds. Tall and skinny is the same as sh.ort and squatty

a Jube is fuglier than that and would sound way better for the same money.

1. Free Beer 2. The Hot Nasties 3. The Skinny Dippers

I believe the main purpose of the half octave rule is to keep the crossover point high enough to keep the driver from unloading. I have no desire however to debate this, it is just my understanding. Either way, It really doesnt matter, its a good rule to follow. Dave I'm using only first order (single cap value, 6 DB/octave electrical) on my K-1133 driver. I'm relying on the K-402's ACOUSTIC cutoff, which is 18 db/octave at 320 Hz. So it's effectibely 4th order at 320 Hz. in combination to match the active 4th order on the woofer section. The driver is made to handle lots of power and I'm typically only using 10 MILLIWATTS rms through it. I don't think it will ever see a 1W peak too often (+20 db up from nominal), which would be 105 db peak at my sweet spot from one channel only (3 db less......half of that with both channels drive, obviously).

I'm getting response down to 300 Hz. from my Klipsch made K-1133 drivers, and they are Titanium! As I recall it's a mylar suspension and it uses a different phase plug from the K-1132 drivers, so they give up the high end and get lower. I'm thinking those would work well with your new horn and new super tweeter for those who can't afford the dollars of the cubic feet of a K-402. I think your are going the right direction with your latest mid horn. the bigger the better. So when you can get a Klipsch made driver that behaves like a relatively high mass phenolic with a low mass titanium diaphragm which is operated well BELOW it's diaphragm resonance point, which is up about 16 Khz. you have the best of both worlds. But it's gotta a be a 3-way in either case, especially with a JBL Phenolic.

Looks like you need sub help below 80 Hz. which is THX standard.

So 350 vs. 225 watts= 25.44 dbWatts vs. 23.52 dbWatts, a mere 1.9 db difference on peaks. I don't think you will hear the difference. You may smell the smoke from the voice coils however, as you will far into the thermal, non-linear power compression and distortion at that point. Time to bow out of this thread.

I wasn't questioning your potential SPL or headroom, just the "authority" part. For people who listen to non-damaging levels with horns, in more "typical" rooms. The extra power capability has nothing to do with the "authority" of the bass response, just the max. spl. as long as your are using solid state amplifiers with low source impedance, you will have plenty of authority at 2 watts average, maybe a bit less with tube amps. I used to have as much power as you on my Khorns back in the 70's, but after designing and building my own peak power meters, I sold them off and went to Marantz 8B tubes. At 35 W per channel, they had plenty of "Authority." PWK himself approved them to my face. Obviously if you crank TSCM's in a huge room you will need that much power and headroom, but in a "normal" home environment, it's a total waste, which, I presume, is the type of room the original poster was asking about. Besides, the original poster doesn't have TSCM's which have different drivers and specs. He was asking if his 80 w amps were enough for Khorns and LaScalas, which, even for large living rooms, is more than enough according to 95% of the respondents here, including data from original/official Klipsch documents. So the short answer for him is YES. Don't need to waste any money on more power, geez. That being said, I'm sure your TSCM setup kicks some royal butt regardless of other opinions or relevance.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-EQ-12-Signature-TS-EQ12/331091705797?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D3579953257105708125%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D331089472926%26 better yet http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-Signature-/281227952200?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item417a7e0048 don't snooze Claude1, Are you now saying that this sub will work with my Khorns? If you place it right and cross it at the optimum point for your room, yes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-EQ-12-Signature-TS-EQ12/331091705797?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D3579953257105708125%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D331089472926%26 better yet http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-Signature-/281227952200?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item417a7e0048 don't snooze

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunfire-True-Subwoofer-EQ-12-Signature-TS-EQ12/331091705797?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D3579953257105708125%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D331089472926%26

The LAB 12 is a very rugged woofer at 400W/800W Program. I'm confident of the 95 db/w efficiency of the Tapped Horn, which is similar to a Danley DTS-20 (for less than $300). I modeled a JBL 4 ohm car woofer that can be had for about $80, so my coffee table sub could be built for less than $200, representing the best price/performance I know of for subwoofage. Back to your question......if we take a 500 Watt amplifier and convert to DBwatts, we get about 27 DBw. adding this to 95 db/W @ 1 Meter, we should be able to get 122 db out of it. When I had it corner loaded in my "artist loft," it had a 45 foot room to fire into, so the 1/2 wave propagation went pretty darn low. With the best sub bass Blue Rays, it shook to floor, the couch, and your pant leg. One could build 4 of these for $800 (4 drivers plus lumber) in the middle of 4 walls using the affordable JBL driver (http://www.jbl.com/EN-EU/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?PID=GTO1214 and absolutely kill any direct radiator subwoofage at 2-4X the price. But, with enough cash, you could make direct radiator subs work too, but I'm a best bang for buck audiophile and I'm not alone.

I just stuck the mike in the horn mouth, laying on the floor and ran a sweep from 10-100 Hz.. The 20-60 Hz. was perfect. The "funky part" of measured output of any tapped horn is not as bad as the Hornresp simulation would have you believe. I tried a large iron core inductor to clean it up, but all it did was lower the overal efficiency, so I left it out. I strictly rely on the LFE filter at THX/80 Hz. to do the job and it works fine. I'm guessing about 95 db/Watt since I typically measured about 10 db W more power than my LaScala-like woofer section (about 105 db/w). So about 12 feet from corner, 85 db level at my sweet spot, I calculated 0.025 Watts thought the woofer section, then measured about 0.25 watts on the sub, which is, obbiously 10X more, meaning 10 db less than the woofer in the stack (see avatar). This was when I lived in a condo, so I didn't crank it too often. When I did, it was probably 2.5 Watts, assuming relative DB display on my receiver was accurate. My on neighbor claimed the pictures on the wall were moving (common wall between our apartments). The LAB 12 Driver is 6 ohms. I had a B&K 200 Watt amp on it, so gobs of head room. The beauty of horn loaded EVERYTHING is that there is never any Non-Linear Power Compression from overheating voice coils. The rule of thumb is never use more than 10% of rated power on a woofer, and there are only two ways to do that. Horn load it it, whether you are talking woofer or Sub-woofer, or buy 10 or more drivers to work in parallel acoustically. Lumber is cheaper than more drivers, especially subwoofer drivers.

No problem. Sorry it took me until the prior post to change my tune. No matter which direct radiator subs you get, get two, and they are best used on front and rear wall centers if possible. You will probably find 60 hz. to be a good starting point for best blend. Let us know how it well it goes, ok?

Well, you certainly could not do that with Bose 901's and 4 Kilowatts of power. Rock on!

Apparently they got severely damaged themselves.

Canyonman, I built a coffee table Tapped Horn Sub that went to 15 Hz. with a LAB driver for about $300. It was ruler flat from 20-60 Hz. at the mouth and only needed about 3 Watts to keep up with Khorn bottoms with Crites woofers, since the mouth was at my feet. But if you need to save space bad enough and you are looking at Direct Radiator subs that cost $2,000 each. then go forth a blow the cash. Why are you asking us? All direct radiator subs do the same thing. More cone area, ported or sealed and lots of power needed. Unless we are talking something like my old twin large VMPS passive subs which had a 12, a 15, a 15 passive radiator in a port that you could tune with the supplied putty. They kept up with my MWM woofers, but mostly knocked stuff off the walls upstairs when cranked up. They would be too big for you though, so look at a SERVO type sub to get the most bass out of given space.

Right on, brother Dean! Tell it!!

This 20W recommendation is the best and it's an old one. 80W/ch. would be 6 db more and not necessary. There has probably been more millions of dollars wasted on too much power for Khorns than any other speaker in the world over time. Been there, done that in my foolish youth. Keep in mind that a K-33 woofer is a 100 W woofer. All voice coils start to show power compression at 10% of their rated power. So, for a Khorn, LaScala, or Cornwall, that's 10 watts before non-linear power compression sets in. At that point, you are at an ear splitting 107 db at 10 feet away, which is the same level as a RUSH concert with megawatts of power in a large venue. I'm just sayin' you power freaks are out of your frikkin' minds and will NOT be enjoying your tweeters into a ripe old age. You know I'm right.

RAFellows, The new amp should be fine, but you can always upgrade to more power later. I have Klipsh TSCMs wich are Pro Klipschorns that are even more sensitive than K-Horns as they are 106dB/1 meter?/1 Watt and also louder as well, and I use 225 watts on my center and 200 watts on all other channels. The bigger amp will give you more headroom and help with authority on your Bass with your K-Horns and LaScalas for both music and movies. Roger Not true.

No. ClaudeJ1, You say no, have you looked at the SVS subs? Also wouldn't alot depend on listening levels etc, etc? There are lots of good direct radiator subs out there. Many of them by Klipsch. But, based on the PHYSICS, rather than brand, they do create lots of harmonic distortion, which is what makes them incompatible with Khorns. Paul Klipsch original made the Heresy as a center channel speaker, then the Cornwall, and finally, a Belle (Pretter version of a LaScala named after his first, late wife to match Walnut Khorns). His reasoning evolved, based on measurments and listening, that even when played 6 db down from the flanking speakers in his classic 2PH3 setup, which I had myself for 30 years, the distortion was still objectionable based on the lowest common denominator. You can have a horn sub with direct radiator main speakers, but not the other way around. An exception to this might be having LOTS of 18" sub cones to keep excursion at the lowest frequencies below 1.5 mm Xmax. But that is way more expensive than just building a THT or some other sub bass horn.

Since the average power, when played LOUD, with Khorns, is about 1/4 watt, adding in a conservative 20 db headroom (100 times), you get 25 Watts, so 80 will give you about 25 db head room. The rest of you guys that recommend more are crazy! (in a good way, of course). I was a DB freak with my Khorns in my early 20's and even then I was only hitting 10 Watt peaks on most of my music. I also want to remind you that signal to noise ratio is based on full output, so, good low power amps, technically, have an advantage over higher power ones, in that they have a higher signal to noise ratio. 100-300 Amps of modern times are great (Bryston 4B, etc.) but you will NEVER use it on a Khorn and it's money wasted. Save that kind of power for SUBWOOFERS.

Thanks for filling in the blanks. Time domain issues are handled by Audyssey Voodoo in my listening room. Takes a while to master the miking technique because it messes with the imaging quite a bit, but once it's done and all the receiver selections tweaked, it's nothing short of amazing. 2.1 or 7.1 for dummies, I call it. Sometimes I like to be a "dummy" and just enjoy the music without breaking out the all the measuring tools, which should be tweaked before applying Audyssey anyhow. Love them Blue Ray concerts, but most times, they sound better in 2.1 than DTS.

We got a bit off track here, but I digress...........................................So do my expert engineer friends agree with the title of this thread?

I try to keep my levels in the 80-85 db range (JBL used to recommend 75). This keeps things loud enough and detailed enough. Based on your posted letter, I use about 1/100th of 1 watt to do this (10 milliwatts) or 20 db less, which is 1/4 as loud, which agrees with my own measurements of amplifier power going to my passive Xover. A 300 Watt amplifier is a 25 dbWatt amplifier, which means you can reach 125 db peaks, which are pretty obnoxious to my ears. I would say YES you have tons of headroom. That would translate about about 45 db headroom for me. The only thing I wish to point out is that Signal to Noise ratios in amplifiers are referenced to full output, so, all other things being equal, the guy with less powerful amplifiers will also have less noise. I should point out that the 10 W/channel, $26 Lepai is what I use on my woofer section. It has enough headroom to handle the latest TRON movie dynamics. My beefy power goes to the Danley DTS-10's where it's needed.