Prana-Bindu

It seems rather funny to me that the absence of an explanation for a perceived difference in a particular vocabulary (that of electronics or physics, e.g.) leads to the assumption of equality. What then, is the math and measurement that leads to the conclusion that there is no difference? If we're going to be strict about our demand for the vocabulary of cause and effect, we cannot resolve the issue speaking of people's perceptions (including double-blind tests or any other hopeless attempt to quantify the judgments of taste). After all, depending on what I ate 30 minutes ago, she loves me... she loves me not... she loves me... . Nevertheless, if no explanation in such vocabulary is available, it is reasonable to conjecture that there is absolutely no difference? That's like believing the core of the earth is made of nougat because you've never been there. Equality is an idea that helps us organize the dirt in which we live. It's impossible to make a point.... I've found that the more audio vocabulary I learned in the past year or so, the better able I was at noticing differences in components, placement, recordings, etc. If you put me in front of my RF-3's next to a pair of Aerial Acoustics 6's a year ago, all I would be able to tell you after 1 hour of listening is that the Aerial's sound clearer and with more bass. Put me in front of the same speakers today for 15 minutes, and I can tell you that the Aerials are better balanced, are more laid-back, reproduce more detail, have tighter and more bass, project a wider and deeper soundstage, are more dynamic, less bright, have a much darker background, etc. Have me compare Kimber 8tc and the wee-thin compact stereo wire, and the available vocabulary diminishes quite a bit. Darker background, more detail, and approaches faster dynamics. Put me in front of those cables a year ago, and I'd be lucky to notice the darker background. Maybe some o' y'all just can't walk the talk.... We need to determine exhaustively what aspects of the electrical signal are relevant to the stereo system's reproduction of music, before we start quoting identical measurements between Nordost Valhalla cable and grandpa's barbed wire fence. Otherwise, you might as well tell me that there's no difference because you measured the lengths of the cables and they were identical. After that gargantuan task is accomplished, we can ask ourselves how the various characteristics of cable affect such relevant aspects of the electrical signal. Otherwise, it's just he said, she said, he said with his eyes closed, she said with her eyes closed twice. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

To say that different speaker cables don't make different sound is more presumptuous than to say that they do. Electricity isn't a mathematical abstract that can be casually thrown into the "all else being equal" category. Perhaps an interesting question to try to answer would be How do we know that different speaker cables CANNOT or DON'T make different sound? There are many people who claim to observe a difference and there are many who claim to notice no difference at all. Both judgments are vulnerable to bias. TBrennan: what gear was used in the double-blind tests to which you refer? (cables, amps, pre-amps, sources, speakers, music, etc.) I've heard a difference between Monster, Kimber and, in a recent comparison, that wee-thin wire that comes with compact stereo systems. As would be expected, the perceived difference when comparing the wee-thin wire was greater than when comparing the Monster and the Kimber, but we're still talking about differences that aren't anywhere near night and day. Quieter background, more detail, somewhat faster dynamics, but I could still bang my head using any of the wires. This wouldn't apply to the context of music very directly, but I distinctly remember Ray posting recently that he could hear some loud nasties coming out of his speakers when he slammed certain cables against the floor or hit them with the handle of a screwdriver or somethin'. I don't wanna know what Ray is doing throwing his cables against the floor or attacking them with his toolbox, but such an observation would come very close to proving that the signal going through the wire isn't some mathematical constant unaffected by the nature of the medium through which it travels. Would you like to remind us Ray? ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

Thanks for the beta! If the imaging and soundstage aren't gonna benefit much, I suspect it's more sensible to spend the second sub's price on a better single sub. I'm not that excited about bass in music (in HT it seems critical), but there are certain passages of even soft, mellow music that appear to be begging for a couple more octaves. This gap in my system is nudging this neurotic hobby into relapse. However, it seems I should improve my digital and speakers before raisin' the roof with a sub. What do y'all think? (remember: music is the goal, not HT) Onkyo Integra cd carousel (6 discs) Kimber silver streak interconnects VTL IT-85 integrated amp Kimber 8tc biwired cable RF-3's I definitely want to taste a mid-range horn before I do anything else with the speakers department. Mmmmmmmm... department.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

Is there an imaging or soundstage benefit from using two subs instead of just one in a music-only setup? ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

Since y'all are on the subject: I understand that there is a benefit to the midrange to have the lower two octaves reproduced well. I'm strictly a music/2-channel freak at this time, and I'm curious about how much the rest of the frequency range will be benefited by the addition of a sub. Also, how much of a difference will adding a sub for each channel make, as opposed to just one sub for both channels? That Aerial Acoustics sub is definitely pretty. Haven't heard it yet, though.... Thanks for the beta! ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

tcpool: Go through the basics: update all your drivers or reinstall them, thorough disk scan, defrag (to see if that will catch a disk error), and (most importantly) do a system file check (I'd do THAT first, actually). Check your BIOS settings to see if the recent flash created any contradictory settings. Check your IRQ assignments. Write to the doctor at Maximum PC Magazine.... Good luck! ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

TBrennan: Ray answered your question for both of us.... I never worried about vibrating cables until I noticed that mine were vibrating vigorously when my RF-3's were going loud. The cables happen to be suspended between the rack and the speaker posts, because I placed the amp high up on the rack (lack of foresight). I'm planning on lowering the amp, but then I'd have to buy long interconnects for other components (hassle factor). Nevertheless, I think it's valid to eliminate as much vibration in the whole system as possible. Most of the process of music playback is an effort to direct vibrations in a certain fashion; a waveform is essentially a kind of vibration, isn't it? I assume that any unintended vibration affects the character of the system's output. Whether any one source of outside vibration is audible is a different issue than whether all the sources of vibration in the system combined make an audible difference. Here's a good example of why such obsessive concern over minutiae is worth it in the long run: Let's pretend you're a professional mountain biker. The heavier your bike is, the more you have to work to get to the finishing line. Let's say you start out with a Huffy bike from K-Mart; a heavy bike compared to something like a Slingshot (cable downtube instead of actual tubing). Any change in components is only going to shave off at most a couple of ounces. Replacing the fram and the tires will take of many ounces, but any other replacement will lighten the bike by totally unnoticeable fractions. Nevertheless, you can start out with a 35 lb. bike and end up with a less than 20 lb. bike by replacing each component with the lightest parts out there -- quite a noticeable difference when you're halfway up the mountain. This is why I tweak. This is why I kept the improvised cones between my cd-player and the isolation sand box (built by yours truly...), even though I didn't notice a difference in the sound. By the way, a cheap way to experiment with cones is to use 4-sided dice made for those of us who used to geek out playing Dungeons & Dragons. O.K., Randy: what in the world is the Folger's can for? Ray: I'll take your word for it -- I don't have the heart to whack at my Kimbers. Ain't this neurosis great? When do we stop having fun? ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

Lynnm: Try using granite/marble slabs over a protective rubber sheet. Or you can get Lexan (polycarbonate paneling) squares to place under each spike.... There are probably many better solutions than plywood. Good luck. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

I assume that you're lifting the cable off the ground to minimize floor vibrations traveling into the cable? My cables are rather stiff (Kimber biwired 8tc), and they are currently suspended in the air between the speaker posts and one of the higher shelves on my Flexy. I've noticed that when the speakers are playing loud (read: vibrating), the cables vibrate like mad. I would think that running the cables along the floor would help absorb most of those vibrations. Aren't we (you and I, Randy) giving the cables room to vibrate more by lifting them off the ground? Wouldn't something like carpet or foam cable wraps do a better job of isolating the cables? ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

Ray: How do powered and passive subwoofers compare generally? Is one generally more linear than the other? How much of a difference does having a subwoofer for each channel (as opposed to just one) make on the soundstage, imaging, and the ambience? Now you've made me curious.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

A receiver (at least with two-channel gear) usually consists of a pre-amp section, a power amp section and a radio tuner. With home theater (not my area of knowledge), a receiver has a pre-amp section, an amp section, maybe a radio tuner, and some kind of multi-channel processor. Separate components (pre and power) are supposed to be more faithful to the music or less susceptible to noise than receivers, but I'm not sure if home theater gear has too many separates options. By the way, a box with just the pre-amp and the power amp in it (without the radio tuner) is commonly referred to as an integrated amp. Peace!! ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

If your main interest is home theater, Harley's book may not be for you. I believe that either he or some other affiliated fellow is supposed to be coming out with a HT guide to high-end. The book at issue concentrates mostly on two-channel stuff, though it does have a limited HT section (I think). ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

The author actually does not condemn gear at any price; he even identifies the apparent $2000 mark after which the benefits derived from more expensive gear suffer from the effects of diminishing returns. He stresses the importance, using any gear, of factors such as the character of the listening room, speaker placement, etc. I never thought I'd actually be writing apologetics for Harley.... One of the most useful discussions in the book (for me) is the section that discusses the vocabulary reviewers use to describe the differences they perceive between hardwarez. When I tried things like bringing the speakers out from the walls or toeing them in or isolating components, I noticed a difference, but I could not identify it with a well-descriptive word. The book at issue and this board helped quite a bit. Without a consistent, meaningful (useful) vocabulary, it is harder to track and compare the differences we perceive, and we are quagmired in bar-bar-bar-bar-barbarianism.... I don't have a copy of the text before me, but I vaguely recall a discussion of horned speakers. Again, the author does not condemn them, but he does state that many audiophiles (that's us, kids) consider horns too colorful and somewhat harsh. What he means by "colorful" is that horns add a quality to these people's idea of the reference sound; i.e., colorful = different and not faithful to the original. Of course, every piece of equipment will color the sound in some way (perfection is a point -- it cannot be made). The objection identified, and probably adopted, by the author is not that horns color the sound, but that they color it far too much and in a relatively unpleasant manner. I haven't heard enough gear to feel comfortable with any idea of a reference sound, but I HAVE noticed a difference between the highs produced by my RF-3's tweeters and those produced by other technology. What do I think of the difference? I don't know yet; I want to hold off on a decision to move away or stay with horns until I hear at least a mid-range horn and maybe one of the fully horned speakers out there. I consider Harley's discussions of the various options out there for us and of the relevance of gear specifications to be thorough and invaluable. I got a lot from the book, but I think the cover art is stupid. You know, you CAN just read it at Barnes & Noble without buying it.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

I have the book, and I learned quite a bit from it. I was (am?) a total newbie, and I felt the writing was well-suited for my lack of expertise. I find myself referring to it often and writing in the first person far too much. The author discusses the topics in an accessible and thorough manner, and there is plenty of in-depth discussion for those more scientifically inclined. I haven't heard about any alleged errors, but I haven't researched the matter too well. Unless you're ready for an engineering degree, the book should be a great introduction and standard reference for this pathetic hobby. Enjoy! ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

Randy: Rock on with the Flexy!! Have you considered bass traps on top of the Khorns? I'll post my Flexy when I get my hands on a digital camera. Oh yeah, what's under your Theta? Isolation? Coupling? ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

If you're gonna be anywhere near Nebraska in the near to not-so-near future, I'd be delighted to take them off your hands. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

You got to it first, Colin. I usually check things out at these BB's Mon-Fri and leave the weekends for recovery.... The great thing about LLC's is that they are very easy to tailor exactly to the level of structure you want in the control of the company. In other words, you can have a very detailed set of rules about how decisions are made, how money is spent, etc., or you can have a lot of discretion placed in people. The only substantial drawback to LLC's (last time I looked into it) is that they are not regulated uniformly by all the states. As such, certain legal consequences of the business structure in one state may differ from those in another state. It's been about a year since I looked into it, so most of the states may have adopted a uniform regulation by now. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

ShapeShifter: thanks for the words of encouragement. I'll be checking e-bay and other sites quite often now. I noticed that most of the Classic Klipsch speakers aren't biwirable. What negative effects, if any, could I expect from using my biwired cables on such speakers with the extra pair not connected or doubled up with the other pair (piggy-back stylie)? ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

Dead Kennedys were my high-school anger band. F**k the PMRC and Tipper Gore!!!! Henry Rollins, on the other hand, is liar... yeah... a liar... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

I always thought that Nebraska had the presence it does in these boards because of the commitment Stereo West has held to Klipsch products. Maybe it's just demographic or sumthin'.... I'm still really pissed about missing out on those Forte's. I even found a dude that would take the RF-3's off my hands if I replaced with another speaker. Tragic!! ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

So far, I've counted four of us from Nebraska; God help us.... Yup, one dude at the Custom Electronics in Lincoln enjoys bragging about being a B&W dealer. BTW, I was 15 minutes away from being the proud owner of a set of Forte II's being sold by a dude in Omaha on E-Bay, and then I was outbid by like $100 while I went to pick up a friend at the airport. So close!! Looks like I'll have to wait to hear a midrange horn.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

Nothing normative is intended in the bemoaning of the industry's exclusive turn to HT. It's just sad that the two-channel, high-fidelity experience is being shoved into a specialized, esoteric corner of the market. Fidelity used to be the goal just a few years ago; now the goal is pumping up the neato factor of the explosions in a typical movie's soundtrack. Yippie... it sounds just like Roseanne Arnold is right behind me.... I lost any respect I may have had for Henry Rollins when he totally tanked in Win Ben Stein's Money. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

Yup, Sound Environment. I heard the 6's being driven by VTL gear and I couldn't believe my ears. Totally immersive, clear, accurate, luscious. I knew they carry the Egglestons, but I haven't seen them there matched with anything yet. I, too, suspect the price is prohibitive for most of us. The Aerial Acoustics 6's (cheapest of their full-range speakers) sounded better (slightly) to me than the AvantGarde's matched with VTL tiny monoblocks in their main listening room. Let's get things straight, though: there was a reason (about ten years ago) why I HAD to have a pair of Klipsch speakers. That reason used horns for the tweeter and the mid and a diaphragm for the lows. It's been too long for me to remember which speakers I heard back then when Stereo West had a home audio shop in Lincoln, but they floored me. When I had enough cash flow to make the purchase (about 1 year ago), I went straight to Stereo West and auditioned the Klipsch and Paradigm gear; thus the RF-3's. If I find a pair of those speakers, be they Forte, Chorus or Cornwall, I'll definitely give them a try. If those horns can do to the mids what the RF-3's do to the highs, I'll be a very satisfied horn-dog. Doug: no need to apologize for communicating that you may be "in the market". When you decide to part with those Forte's, send me an e-mail. I have two very good friends in Phoenix, and an audition would be a great excuse to visit. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

Doug: you selling? I've always been hesitant about buying used gear: enforcing warranties implied by law is difficult against some dude living in some other state with nothing to lose. Yes, I have considered going with the Forte, Chorus or Cornwalls, but the issue at hand is whether to take advantage of the 1-year upgrade policy of my dealer. Also, I would really prefer to hear the speakers before committing to a purchase, and that option is most often not there with those old speakers. Someday I'll try the mid-range horns, but it will likely be after I get to wrap my ears around those lovely Aerial Acoustics. Mmmmm... wrap.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....

Thanks, Phil. The RF-7's are out of my range right now, but I would love to hear them at their best. I should be more thorough about this comparison. Perhaps on Thursday I'll truck my RF-3's and a good amp out to Omaha. Sorry, Phil, but that black finish just doesn't even come close to the Cherry or other wood finishes. I suppose that in the right room it would be great, but that room would probably have to include black furniture, a lot of chrome, and Marilyn Manson posters.... Again, thanks for stepping up to the plate. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way....