bacevedo

What you are asking for is what most people have to pay thousands of dollars for. Not many people have the know how to design an optimal room for speakers. Maybe you need to go see a custom installer. A question like this just can't be answered in a simple thread. Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

Why are you so set on the KC-7 Center channel? You have asked for advice, and everyone tells you differently, but it seems you are still set on this center channel? Why? If you have to have that center channel, then do as Keith said, get different mains and don't get the reference series. The match won't be correct, and you will be either buying a new center speaker or new mains. Just trying to save you the headache. As far as the RP-5s go, I had them for about 1 week. They sounded great in the store, but once I got these huge beasts into my room, the bass was awful. Since the subs are side firing, you have to have plenty of space on the sides of the woofers. In my setup, they were right up against walls, and the bass just sounded totally wrong. Lots of low end bump, but no mid bass punch. It's like there was a gap between the midrange and bass. Instead I got the RB-5s (same exact horn and midrange) matched with a KSW-12. I have since sold the KSW-12 and now have a Velodyne SPL-1200 subwoofer. With this setup the bass is tight and quick, and I have the RB-5s toed in and aimed directly at me - the highs and mids sound sweet. I have the RC-3 center matched with this, and let me tell you, the soundstage in DPLII Music is incredible from my Denon 3802. One other school of thought is that the best location for the mids and highs is usually the worst location for the bass. So you don't want to limit your bass response for the highs, or vice versa. Also notice that Klipsch stopped making these speakers. They realized that powered speakers was not what they were wanting to do. And if you decide that you want more bass (which you probably will) you will end up going out and getting a seperate sub anyway. And then you will have 3 subs in the room (2 not optimally placed) fighting with each other, cancelling and peaking - creating very uneven bass. Not to mention that you just wasted $1000 on subs in the towers that didn't make you happy, and you are stuck with them. Also, the RP-5s have a high pass crossover (not defeatable) of 90 Hz for the mids. If your receiver only has an 80 Hz crossover, you are creating a small gap there, where the sound may have a dip between 80 and 90 Hz, and there will be nothing you can do about it. If you have lots of room, and just want big impressive looking speakers, then the RP-5s are for you. But if your room is limited, the RB-5s will give you the same mid and high's, and a seperate sub will most likely give you better bass. Plus integration and placement are a lot easier. I hope this helps. Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

deang - you are right - that is why I said the horn (not the driver). The actual Tractrix horn on the RF-5 is the bigger version. The RC-3 would probably be fine - just the actual horn will be smaller. Also, the crossover point on the RF-5 is different than the RC-3 and other 3 series, and I think it matches more closely to the 7 series. (Sounds like we are talking about BMWs here ) Bryan

With RF-3s or 5s I would recommend the RC-3 or RC-7 center channel instead of the KLF-C7. The reference series are all tonally matched, and it is very important in a HT to have the front 3 speaker be tonally matched. Sorry I don't have any info on the RF-3 vs the RF-5. For the rears a good match would be RS-3 or RS-7. Actually, if you go with RF-3, then get an RC-3 and RS-3. However, if you go with RF-5, I would recommend RC-7 and RS-7, since they will have the same horn. Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

I am a regular on Home Theater Forum, and that guy might as well work for Def Tech. He preaches them like they are the gospel. Cracks me up. When I was looking I listened to them, and all I heard was boomy bass. These guys think their world is shaken from the subs, and then get all upset at the TN list when it shows the only thing shaking is the nick nack on top of the speaker. He has been in quite a few debates about using bookshelfs with a sub vs. his towers of power! They call the Klipsch bright - I call the def tech lifeless and boring. As TV would say, different strokes for different folks. Bryan

I thought Klipsch said the RSW 15 would do 115 db at 20 Hz. How did they come up with that number, while this test shows 93 db. And no one answered my earlier question, in TN's room, with his test, would the numbers on these subs be higher or lower? Bryan

quote: And the WAF for this particular item is????? Maybe the spouse is in the coffin. Were there two coffins? One of the pictures looks like the coffin is rounded on the one side, but the others show a rectangle. Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects This message has been edited by bacevedo on 12-17-2001 at 11:24 PM

I am sure the answer is no, but is there any way to extrapolate the data out and compare it to the data from the TN list? At least roughly. I have a Veldoyne SPL 1200 - I am just curious as to how it would compare to the measurements on this list. If the RSW 15 can only do 93 db at 20 Hz here, what would it do in TN's room? My SPL did 90 db at 20 Hz in TN's room, what would it do in this room? More, less? I am beginning to think more and more that I made a good decision by not waiting for the RSW subs and snatching up an SPL at a good price. And what's with the LF 10's? I went in to my local dealer to listen to some new RSW subs - they didn't even have one to display. But the first thing I saw when I walked in the door (literally, on display as I walked in) was an LF 10 "on sale" for "only" $649. They have them in their adds, too. For all of you AZ people, I am talking about Showcase. I called them back in October, and they were expecting a shipment of RSWs anytime. Now here we are in the middle of December, and nothing - I don't think Klipsch has shipped any of these out yet, and if they have, they haven't been received by anyone. quote: SVS was contacted and asked what our baddest subwoofer system we sold was...we sent out the dual CS_U/S1000 package. Relatively flat to 14hz,3x the bass as the closest competitor at 20hz... ...we did ok, Uh - yeah - I would say you did ok when your product(s) costs less, and obliterates everyone else, especially when some are considered the king of the hill. Congratulations! Some day, when I have a dedicated room, SVS will be the first ones I look at! Bryan This message has been edited by bacevedo on 12-17-2001 at 03:32 PM

The worst part of the whole thing is the domain changes. I don't care who the ISP is, but if I have to change my email address from @home.com to @cox.com, that is going to be a major pain in the ***. My wife has 1000 business cards that we just printed up with her business name @home.com. The thought of these all either having to be manually changed every time she gives them out, or printing up new ones is not fun. And then I will have to go to every place that I have my email address registered (that is important, like the bank, credit cards, etc.) and change them. This whole thing really bugs me. I never knew how much Cox (my provider) was dependent on Excite. They were happily taking my $30 a month, but never telling me that their provider was having financial problems and close to bankruptcy. Shame on them! Plus, how can Excite actually go out of business. I mean come on, they were pulling in a good chunk of change for all these cable users, and they still can't stay alive. Sounds like corrupt management to me, and now they can just declare bankruptcy and screw everyone over that was using their service, and these corrupt managers won't have any criminal consequences. But I bet they are millionaires from cashing in their stock options when the going was good, so they could care less. Bryan

You could try the warranty, and Klipsch may replace them, but they wouldn't have to. It's not Klipsches fault there is a dent in the woofer. If you had bought them brand new, and they came out of the box like that, then it would be their problem. But whether the box was sitting on the floor in a store or in your home, a dent caused by someone (in other words abuse) shouldn't have to be covered by their warranty. The store should have to cover that, unless they stated in the sale, as is - no warranty from the store. A warranty is for a defective product that goes out on its own, not for a product that is broken by abuse. How would Klipsch know you bought these open box or not? I don't know, so maybe you will be ok - I can't imagine a single woofer costing them that much, and they would probably rather make a customer happy for the small price. Good luck! Bryan

I always wondered what the main difference was between the SPL and HGS as well. I have the SPL1200, and I can tell you, this thing can crank out the bass. The HGS may be cleaner, but this SPL is already very clean, so I don't know if you could tell the difference. The SPL series are less than 5% THD, and the HGS are less than 1%. I have read that less than 10% is good, so who knows. Bryan And yes, I too get a kick out of TheEar(s) and forresthump. I have never heard anyone say that "an elephant farts louder than you". That gave me quite a good chuckle. ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

A good sub is the Velodyne SPL 1200. I have one, in a custom media niche. It is forward firing, sealed, and has a 750W RMS amp (1500W peak). This sub rocks! Can play down to 16Hz, and plays really loud from 20Hz and up! It is designed so that you can place it in a small niche! I am assuming that is what you want to do. Onecall has them (had them?) factory refurbished, 2 year Velodyne warranty for $749 + about $35 shipping. The sub lists for $1400, and most places have it new for $1200. This is one serious sub - you should check it out. I bought it through them, and it came triple boxed and works totally fine. One thing that is nice about factory refurb, you can pretty much count on it working out of the box, since it already was fixed, and has been hand tested by someone who knows how to do it! Even my wife noticed the difference. I casually asked her the other night if she had noticed any differences with the new sub vs. our old one (Klipsch KSW 12 - for sell by the way). She said yeah - I can feel it now in the couch (translated - goes much deeper and louder) and I can hear the actual bass notes now (translated - less boomy, very clean and tight, not one-noteish). I was so proud! Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

HK amps are all high current - their watts are usually better quality watts than a lot of others. And besides, I don't think any of us with Klipsch speakers ever get past a few watts during listening. Even peaks with Klipsch speakers are probably in the 30W range. I have always heard HK had a great sound, but when I was buying, I didn't like the look and feel of their receivers. There were also lots of problems with the volume control. If you turned it too fast, it would turn the volume up instead of down and vice versa. Their new stuff may fix this, though. Enjoy! Bryan

Olaf and lovedrummin - I too am a "drummer". I use quotes, because actually I am a percussionist - I used to play all the instruments - from Marimba in a jazz band, to concert snare in a symphonic orchestra. My last organized drumming was on the Arizona State Drum Line - that was a blast! But my favorite was always drum set. My grandfather was also a jazz drummer, and gave me his set. It is a 1966 Slingerland, and I believe it has that pearl finish you are talking about. When he gave it to me, it still had the calfskin head on the floor tom, but at that time I was in Jr. High, and very quickly ripped that head during a "jam" session. Now I have Remo Ebony series, but I want to replace them with those Remo synthetic calf skin heads (I can't remember their names right now) to get back that warm sound. I think this is why I love Klipsch speakers so much - they bring out the live sound of music - the sound that I am used to hearing, from playing so much live music. By the way (back to the original post), I am 27, and I already have some hearing loss, but I am now trying to preserve my hearing so that I can enjoy this hobby for years to come. I have learned to appreciate the finer gear, but I am only beginning. Who knows what I will have in 20 years! Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

Hey - a better sub would probably be the Velodyne SPL1200. Onecall.com has them for $749, factory refurbished. Full factory warranty. I picked one up a few weeks ago and I absolutley love it! A great sub, especially for that price. It is more powerful than the KSW15, LF10 and the FSX12. This sub sits pretty high on the Tom Nousaine list! Bryan

I am trying to sell my KSW 12. It is about 8 months old and is in great condition. I have the original box with all packing materials and manuals. E-mail me at bryanacevedo@hotmail.com if you are interested. If I don't have any interest here, I will put it up on e-bay. Bryan

Check out my post in the Denon and sub problem thread - it may explain this for you. Bryan

OK - I just couldn't let this go. I have the 3802 receiver, and the volume gets plenty loud! What you guys are experiencing is that the new volume controls are logarithmic - meaning each "click" represents a certain number of db's louder. So going from -40 to -30 is a 10 db increase in volume. But that is still a low volume. Going from -30 to -20 is again a 10 db increase, but the overal volume is a bit louder. Same from -20 to -10, only a 10 db increase, but now you are at 10 db below reference - which is freaking loud! It's like being in a car, and going from 5 MPH to 10 MPH, then 10 to 20, 20 to 40, and then all of a sudden you are going from 40 to 80. The difference between 40 and 80 is much bigger than 10 and 20. However, you are only doubling the speed each time. SPL is the same way - every 10db increase is like doubling the volume level, so at first it's not a huge difference, but then all of a sudden, you double a sort of loud level into a really loud level. But for an old volume control, it has no correlation with db increments. It just increases the gain or whatever, so on your old receiver, turning the volume 1/4 turn or whatever may increase the volume by 15 db, and then a 1/3 turn does 20 db. But it is not linear. It may get louder faster, but then you can't get it any louder. The amp is maxed out. It's like having only two settings, soft or loud. The new receivers (including the new Yamahas) let you adjust at just about any volume. There is no such thing as a volume knob setting. There is a digital display that tells what db volume you are at below reference. The other thing is you may be hearing loud levels for the first time without significant distortion and clipping. For example, I had an older JVC receiver, that "just got so loud with little volume changes". Then I got my Denon, and I thought, this doesn't seem that loud. So I kept cranking it, and cranking it. And finally it seemed loud. But then I would try to talk to someone, and I couldn't even hear my own voice. When my JVC seemed loud, I could still talk over it. The difference is, when you are used to loud being that harsh edgy sound, clean undistorted loud doesn't seem loud. Get out an spl meter - you would be surprised at the actual volume you are at. It's just that it is clean, and doesn't feel uncomfortable, something you are not used to. Trust me, I was kind of confused at first, too. When you play it loud, with low distortion, it won't seem loud. When was the last time you were at a live orchestra concert (no amplification) and said, damn that is too loud. The SPL's are there, but there is no distortion. On your sub level - do not put your sub level on the receiver higher than -2. My suggestion would be to set your receiver sub level to -2, and then adjust the gain on the sub. Why -2? Sound & Vision tested the 3801, and it had 2.9% distortion at a setting of 0. They said a level of -2 would insure that the sub out of the receiver would never go into distortion. I would imagine your receiver would have either the same or worse. So setting it to +8 will be adding all kinds of distortion that your sub is going to amplify (and add its own distortion to). Not only that, you can overdrive the inputs on the sub, causing it to perform poorly. I hope this helps. Bryan This message has been edited by bacevedo on 11-16-2001 at 03:38 PM

The other thing to remember when comparing the two, is that a lot of times, the two different versions are mastered at two seperate locations, by different people. I have read that DTS controls the mastering process, so that their engineers are always there to keep it up to their specs. I have also read that the soundtracks could come from two totally different masters. This could be the difference in sound - and not have anything to do with the actual compression algorithm at all. People say DTS has to be better because it uses less compression. But that has nothing to do with it, unless the two compression algorithms are identical. It could be said that DTS is less efficient, and as far as compression algorithms go, is infereior. They uses different methods to compress the sound, so using the bitrate only is like saying the car with more horsepower is going to automatically be faster, without looking at everything else. (i.e. gear ratios, weight, etc.) In my opinion, the whole DTS is better rumor is just that, a rumor and an old myth. However, it is entirely possible that a DTS soundtrack could sound better than the DD soundtrack, but that would have nothing to do with the DTS compression itself, but rather the other variables I pointed out. Are there differences in sound - Yes. I just watched the Disney animation "Dinosaur" this weekend. I watched the entire movie in DTS, since there are hardly ever DTS soundtracks, I usually listen to them when they are on the DVD (just so I can use my DTS decoder). I kept thinking, man the bass just seems too hot, way too overbearing and distorted. So after watching the movie, I tried the DD version of the soundtrack. It sounded much better in my opinion. The surrounds actually came alive, there were surround sounds that I didn't hear as clearly in the DTS version. It seemed the channel seperation was more defined. Also, the bass was more even, and sounded less distorted. Which is more accurate? I have no idea - but I did prefer the DD version on this one movie. I have concluded that I will just from now on watch all movies with the DD version first, and then check out the DTS soundtrack, if available, and see if it sounds better for demo material. It is way too time consuming to try and figure out which one is better BEFORE I watch and ENJOY the movie. I figure, you might as well stick with what is the industry standard. My opinion of course! My equipment is listed below, so you can see what I am basing my opinion on. Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

Mr. Blorry, Check out the Velodyne SPL1200 - OneCall has a closeout of some Factory Refurbished B stock for $749. This sub usually goes for around $1200 (MSRP of $1400). I just got one, and it is a great sub, especially for the $750. If you could stretch your budget another $250, you could have one remarkable sub. It has the full manufacturers warranty (2 years), and mine came triple boxed, without a scratch on it. I have no idea what was replaced on it, but it could be as simple as a new grill - who knows. Just thought I would throw that out there. Bryan

Earle - I have found that to be the case too on my 3802. I read on avsforum a post by Jim Fosgate, and he said he always listened in music mode as well. He said that the steering lgoc is still correct, but the music mode will add its ambience - which I really like. The cinema mode, IMO, still collapses everything to the center channel. With the music mode, I could adjust the amount of this collapse. I like my tweaked sound much better. Plus, on TV, there is so much music, that it was pointless to have the cinema mode play all the music out of the center channel. I never realized how much music there is on TV, until I started listening with the Music mode. The other nice thing is now I don't have to switch between cinema mode or music mode when switching from TV to CD's. It makes it easier to operate. Why Denon didn't allow it to remember which version of DPLII you were in for each source is beyond me! You can see my setup below. Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

But what does it all mean? What is the effect of the impedance from the pre-amp changing? More distortion? Noise? And it says two long cables in parallel - what about one long cable and a short Y-Cable? Just wondering how all this affects the sound. Bryan

I think the answer varies depending on your setup. The KSW 15 actually has 3 RCA inputs - Left and Right PLUS an LFE input. The LFE input totally bypasses the internal crossover on the sub. It is there to take the output of a receiver that has a built in crossover. Since there is only 1 of these, you wouldn't use a Y adapter for it. If you use a Y adapter between the LFE and Left input, you are sending a signal to the sub that is bypassing the crossover and also using the crossover at the same time. I am not sure what gain there would be to this. My recommendation on the KSW 15 only, is to use the LFE input, with the cable going directly in (no Y adapter). You could also just use the Y adapter and plug into the Left and Right, but then you would have two crossovers in line. Usually you don't want this, but you could just set the KSW 15 crossover to its max setting so it wouldn't interfere with the receiver's crossover. On the KSW 12 and 10, there is no LFE input, so you only have a Left and Right input. This I would recommend you using a Y adapter, and turning your subs crossover to its highest setting, so you don't have dualing crossovers. The RSW subs have only a Left and Right input (summed), but have a crossover bypass switch (a better design if you ask me) so that you can pass a summed input signal without the crossover interacting with it. My Velodyne SPL1200 has this as well, and it makes it easy to see the interaction between the crossovers by turning the switch on and off, and playing with the subs crossover. And as far as the 6db gain, you can easily make up for it by turning your sub gain up (or your receiver sub level up - but you could add distortion if you turn it up too much). I have read that on most subs, the gain is really a trim, and setting it to max is not amplifying the signal, but allowing it to pass through without being touched. Some people recommend setting your sub level to max, and cutting the receiver sub level as low as possible to get rid of distortion. Some setups can't cut the sub level enough on the receiver, so you could just trim back your sub level until it is where you want it. I know that was a lot, but I really have been thinking a lot about sub set up lately, and these are what I have taken from it. I am still tweaking my sub, but I use all these techniques to find out what sounds the best and go from there. Bryan

I got the sub in yesterday, and let me just say, WOW! No comparison, the KSW 12 is not even close to in the same league as the SPL-1200 (and nobody said it was). But the difference in sound quality is staggering. It is so flat through all the bass frequencies, where the KSW 12 was so loud at like 60 - 80 Hz, the SPL 1200 is really loud all the way down to like 25 Hz. The sound is so clean and tight, very punchy! And even - that is what I would have to see is the biggest difference - not as many peaks as the KSW 12 had - just clean flat bass all the way down. I haven't even had time to really calibrate it, but I had it cranked, and no distortion on the stuff that the KSW 12 couldn't handle, with much higher volumes to boot! I am a very happy man - and will be having some fun this weekend! Bryan

The Klipsch subs already have their own amps built in. You would run a line level interconnect from the pre-amp to the sub. This would probably be the best approach. Or you could run the speaker level outputs from your mono blocks into the speaker level inputs on the RSW sub, and then run the speaker level outputs to your speakers. The sub would then down convert the signal to a usable level, and take it from there for amplifying the low bass signals. Your main speakers would get a crossed over signal from the sub, but at the same power that your mono block is outputting (i.e. it is basically passed through the sub, just going through a crossover). So either way, you are using the internal amp of the sub, and not the amp power from your monoblocks. These new subs have 1000W RMS amps (2400W dynamic) built in. Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects