Ski Bum

Hello eote- I live in the front range right now. I ski the backcountry for the most part, but also hit the Boat on occasion, and I do have a 5 mountain pass, so Summit is wide open. Love the Boat. There's nothing quite like long aspen glades with deep pow. My only beef with the Boat is that it lacks proper steeps. For those, I hit the Basin, Crested Butte, or Silverton, or hike somewhere out of bounds. I almost got smushed in an avalanche on Cameron Pass a couple weeks ago. (Oh, the things we do for that snorkel deep pow.)

Check out www.quadmods.com. They have some tricks to reduce noise on the 909 and make it more suited to high efficiency, more revealing speakers. I've always been curious about the Quad amps. I'm a bit of a SET fan, and am unsure if its the musical-instrument-like distortion I'm liking, or if its the class A things they do (complete absence of crossover distortion). The Quad amps supposedly have class A output with their current dumping, feed-forward circuit, thus should offer the clarity of SETs, but without the low power, bandwidth limitations, and high output impedance. Please keep us posted on your experience with the 909.

What to expect? Better midrange than your RF62, much more resolving and detailed. Drier bass; they like corners more, and with proper placement dig very deep. Pure Heritage goodness, that bigger than life presentation. I expect your RF's to sit in silence for extended periods while you play with your new toys. I paid $365 for some less than minty ones (prob 7/10 or so). Presently using an old NAD amp, and it's making the forte's sing beautifully. They like plenty of juice.

Perhaps you should learn some spelling and syntax before you malign the intelligence of others.

You've definitely got the speakers which allow you to use low watt tubes. I personally love SET sound, and would encourage you to try some out. Depending on the particular amps, you may or may not need a pre-amp, it all depends. 300B SETs: the creme de la creme of single ended, direct heated triode amps. Typically wicked expensive, and require proper design to reach their potential, which many brands seem to have missed. Tread carefully. 2A3: Also highly regarded, dht SETs, with correspondingly high tube prices. I recently saw a pair of Wright 2A3's on Audiogon for $800. That would be something to keep an eye out for. Various pentode-wired-as-triode amps...don't rule these out. Decware, for example, offers extremely nice sounding, high value gear, and neither the amps nor the tubes are expensive. The amps of this type I've heard seem less 'tubey' than the 2A3's and 300B's regarding midrange bloom, perhaps better for someone with SS sensibilites taking their first foray into tubes. This type of amp can range from affordable amps like Decware, to ridiculously expensive such as Serious Stereo at $12K for a pair of monoblocks. PP tubes are more powerful, and lack the SET magic, but they do sidestep the primary SET weakness, low power. And pp tubes will still probably tickle your ears and synapses more favorably than SS. They also run the gamut from affordable to ridiculously expensive. User 'NOSvalves' could probably hook you up with a ST-70 which would rock your world for a reasonable price. Whichever way you go, prepare for some musical enjoyment! Tubes rule!

Well, as one of the relative newbs, when I try to update anything on my profile I get 404 errors. If you really give a crap, I own some Klipsch, a bunch of other speakers, a bunch of amps of all different flavors, a bunch of cd/dvd players, a couple turntables, an active crossover, and several pre-amps. I'm pretty homely, so please consider the generic profile avatar as a favor to you. I'm w/ Coytee...it's the influx of folks who've only recently found out that Klipsch Heritage kicks ***. For any Audiovox spies, please take note of the interest in Heritage products. I hope the cinema/commercial division (i.e. Hope) is enough to keep Heritage kicking for a while longer.

Hmm, interesting question. Even a small Decware will pull some juice, being class A and inefficient, but I imagine you won't do much better power-consumption wise going the tube amp route. Decware amps sound excellent, if you haven't heard them. Very low powered, but highly seductive personalities, classic SET imaging/transparency. If you're using your solar to charge batteries, you could keep the amp build simple (no need for rectification if you're on DC power). The battery powered SETs I've heard sounded great. Of course they drained the batteries in just a few hours. I'm sure something like one of those Virtue chip amps could have run for a week on a similar charge, while producing much more output than a flea SET.

Regarding your C272, remember that's some variation on class G/H with dual supply rails, which kind of confuses matters compared to an amp with a conventional power supply. 'Continuous power' reflects the lower power rail's limits, which is 150w, or 171w at slightly more forgiving tolerances. The high power supply rail provides the added headroom, drawn on when the signal demands it, but is only available for fairly brief periods, so a continuous signal will default back to the lower supply as soon as the higher rail is exhausted. But it should be able to roast along at 150w all day long. With a variable signal (music), it's capable of 300+ or however many unclipped watts. It makes understanding NAD specs a little strange, but they do at least spec conservatively. It's also why your NAD rated at 150w 'continuous' sounds as powerful a conventional amp of 250w or more RMS power.

Your water analogy doesn't hold water. (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) Music is an AC signal, not a continuously flowing signal like water. Imagine the volume of water in your hose, and the attached nozzle/horn, jiggling back and forth. Small fluctuations in water pressure from the hose are reflected in the jiggling water at the nouth of the horn, which couple to the air over the entire opening of the horn, rather than just from the small hose orifice, thus moving more air. The horn acts as an impedance coupler between the water vibrating back and forth (driver movement), and the lower impedance air, the medium through which the sound is transmitted. The horn acts to exapand the effective radiating area of the driver by better coupling it to the air, with the air (or water in your analogy) within the horn acting in piston like motion between the driver at the throat and the room air at the mouth. The direction of motion at the mouth is focused specifically by the particular horn shape. I don't think that horns act like hose nozzles. There's a lot more to it than I know, which is very little (tractrix vs exponential, square mouth vs. rectangular mouth vs ellipsoid mouth, etc). Perhaps others will chime in.

Let us know, Angus. Check this out: http://www.fat-man.co.uk/docs/product_07/iTube_Mothership.shtml "Product Features: Awesome Stunning Stellar" That's hilarious! I want one now just because of the audacity of that.

Someone else here used the analogy 'pulling the boat with the Prius'. Driving those full range with so little power is in that territory. I'll bet it would sound sweet for less demanding material, but would fart out for big full-orchestra climaxes. Then again, I took my similarly powered amps to the store to try with RF62's, and it was louder than expected. It depends on what his expectations are. edit: Hey, you recommended Decware in another thread. Is your nephew's amp one of theirs? The amp I took to the store was one of theirs, probably the same model (SE84C). While they sound fantastic within their limits, their power is quite limited. I've since moved to bi-amp setups, relieving them of any bass duties, and in that application they work extremely well.

+1 on the Decware recommendation. They're about the least expensive amps I've found which are able to provide the full fledged SET thing. Lifetime warranty is correct. Even if you find one used on Audiogon, if you send it to Steve for inspection/mods/updates, he'll extend the warranty to cover you.

'Alternative' tube stereo integrated? This should have you covered: http://www.decware.com/newsite/TORII.htm As far out as that thing seems, it has everything you requested.

I can't find any specs for the KD-15 passive radiators, Klipsch couldn't provide them, and they've sold out of that item. Would the Dayton NS390-PR be a sufficient replacement? For forte II. Thanks in advance for your help!

I don't think it's your novice ears. Do you have any speakers w/ crossover points in the 1.5 to 2 khz area? Compare those to the druids or klipsch and there is more chance you'll pick up on crossover induced misbehavior. Those squakers handle everything from 600 to 6000 hz, with crossover points well outside of our hearing's most sensitive range. PWK said that music lives in the midrange, and the Chorus / forte's really nailed it. First time I heard the druids was at RMAF a couple years ago. After several rooms of low sensitivity/high power systems, the druids stood out with their dynamics, that kick that only high sensitivity provides. It was like a breath of fresh air. They were playing some Jaco-esque, rippin' bass jam, which from your own description probably played to their strengths. I liked 'em. A speaker with character, to be sure, but at least it is an engaging, colorful character.

I heard the druids a couple times. They have the dynamic impact of high efficiency speakers, which is impressive, particularly to the uninitiated, but Klipsch Heritage walk all over them for over-all, top to bottom response. The druids probably are a friendlier load than Klipsch for the micro-watt SET dudes. I didn't find them objectionable really (they have dynamics and punch, for sure), just not quite as flat and neutral as the Heritage I use to at home (forte II, very similar to Chorus II).

Congrats on your recent aquisition, and welcome to the forum! I would follow the traditional Klipsch suggestions on placement and work from there, which seems like what your doing. Try and place them (or orient your listening position) so the speakers are not directly facing you. The point where the on-axis lines intersect should ideally be a couple feet in front of your primary listening spot. That approach has worked very well in my similarly sized room using forte ii's. Fine tune your toe-in and proximity to the corners for the best bass/imaging. That opening will rob some bass. But with the speakers on the opposite wall, that room will be drenched in Klipshy goodness too.

Ah, unfortunately I'm stuck in the passive-crossover dark ages, simply passive bi-amping for now. Even with the power robbing passive parts in place, the 6 watts gets plenty loud (for my old ears, at least), and seems to work well in spite of the limitations. I'm almost afraid to go active, because then I'll get hooked and have to do it for all four sytems in the house, and that would be a huge PIA! The only active system I've had extensive experience with was fantastic, and the crossovers were integral to the speakers (M&K active monitors, and a pro-audio looking bass management unit). Search the forums for 'active crossover' and you'll get many suggestions. Most will be pro-sumer type gear widely available at your local musician/pro audio store, and for less cost than you might expect. Other forum members are far more knowledgable than myself, and some of these guys have tremendous experience setting up their Klipsch as active speakers. You're in the right place.

I would also imagine that in a properly bi- or tri-amped system, with amps connected directly to drivers w/o any passive crossover components would yield easily quantifiable results. A raw driver is a way friendlier, flatter load than said driver coupled with phase shifting, impedance-fluctuating passive crossover parts. Fully actice makes sense no matter how you look at it. To the OP's original question, I use 300w/chan paired w/ approx 6 watts for the top end, and it works great within it's limits. I just don't crank it like a teenager that much any more. It's still good to over 100db at my chair before running out of steam, which is still bowl-you-over loud, and more than I can tolerate for more than brief sessions.

The Outlaw is a receiver, meaning it is a radio tuner, pre-amp, and amplifier in one box, where the MH is integrated amp, meaning pre-amp and amp in one box. If you listen to the radio, the Outlaw will save you from purchasing a separate tuner. Also, the Outlaw has a digital input which you can feed from your computer, and the onboard DACs in the Outlaw are likely superior to those in your PC, unless you have some sort of music/media centric PC. Not necessarily. Your computer can send an analog signal (e.g. from a headphone mini-jack or analog outputs from your soundcard). Using a digital signal and utilizing the onboard DACs on the Outlaw/HK would be preferrable (the analog output of your computer has it's own DAC and output stage, adding complexity and distortion to the signal; which may be completely moot unless your using hi-resolution, uncompressed music files). Having a DAC built in to your receiver is a nice convenience in the digital age, and the two receivers I mentioned are the only stereo/two channel ones that have this. In addition, both the HK and the Outlaw have bass management built in, making the addition of a sub (or two) relatively easy. No, just analog. Thats not a reason to rule it out. The MH is a fine piece and quite a bargain right now, and if onboard DACs are not a priority for you, it would probably work very nicely. I belive that the Outlaw does indeed have a digital input. And that Marantz would work very well. It's an integrated amp, so it lacks the radio tuner of the HK and Outlaw. If you listen to the radio, you can always get one of those Sony HD radio tuners later on; they are dirt cheap and will smoke just about any tuner ever made (HD radio is free, and far better audio quality than satellite radio, fwiw). And don't be confused, once you know the jargon it will all make sense. You've got your sources (disc player, tuner, computer, phonograph, music server, etc); your pre-amp, which is the control hub for switching sources, volume control; and you have amps, which boost the signal so your speakers have something to work with. Each part can be purchased separately, for a high performance, adaptable, complex system; or you can go with integrated amps or receivers, which have two or more of the components stuffed into a single chassis, for uncluttered simplicity. While some integrated amps and receivers are compromised (most of them, actually), that Outlaw, for example, would rival the perfomance of separates. Ask yourself a few questions to help narrow down the choices. Does the amp/receiver/integrated have the power you need? (Everything mentioned in this thread so far would suffice, unless you have a HUGE room.) Next, does it have the features you need? (For example, do you spin vinyl? Look at pieces w/ phono inputs. Does the unit have the number of inputs you require? Would you benefit from one with digital inputs? Aesthetic considerations. Do you want the simplicity of integrated components, or the ultimate flexibility and upgradability of separates? Logistics -that Marantz is close by and within your budget. These are a few of the things you should consider. Just don't consider them more than they warrant or you'll end up being a screwy audiophile, more concerned w/ the gear than the music. Any of the choices listed so far would get you into the music.)

Perhaps you should consider a receiver w/ digital inputs, since you are looking to hook your PC to it (digi out from your sound card directly to the receiver's digital input, using whatever cheap cable will work). Check out the HK3490, or for a bit more the Outlaw RR 2150. Both would drive a pair of RF82's quite nicely.

The RF7-II narrowly beat out the Bose 901, which is number two on the list. Amazing. (They still make those? People actually still buy them? Unbelievable.)

I've got an old NHT X2 active crossover I'd be willing to part with. Barely used, like new condition.

The classic Klipsch recommended method. It works.

The point where they cross is right over the foot of the bed. It sounds great there too. With the 45 degree toe in, it seems like I am hearing more direct sound and less room interaction. Although the room is well damped, the left wall and decor is somewhat reflective; any excessive exposure to the direct sound really affects things adversely. After trying all different degrees of toe in, this is what I found to work the best in my room. Walls vanishing, transport you to the venue type performance. On par with my M&K nearfield setup, which images spectacularly.