maxg

Forgot something - and this is the nuttiest of all folks so enjoy before they carry me off in a nice jacket with arms that tie at the back. In moderate to large rooms for speakers that do NOT require corner placement I have noticed over the last 6 months or so that most audiophiles place them too far apart. After a lot of playing (in 12 houses to date) I have found that the best sound comes....wait for it......when the speakers are......here we go.......6 foot 9 to 7 foot 6 apart measuring centre of the tweeter to centre of the tweeter. No - I do not know why. Yes - it does appear to be almost independent of room and listening distance (from 6 to 15 feet anyway). It would be nice if some of you could check this out and report back. Like I said - I am batting 12 for 12 on this one thus far - but I have not tried it on heritage speakers yet (Scalas, Belles etc). Worked BRILLIANTLY for a pair of RF7's though. Worked on my own speakers too, and a pair of 802's, some Martin logans, Spendors, Triangles...... Does anyone else think I am losing it?

Interesting points are already coming into this thread and I wanted to just touch on a few. Before I start I am going to make one outrageous claim. Sorry about that - but I will attempt to explain it having launched it out there. OK - the claim: "I can filter the room out of the sound when assessing a system." Actually - whilst I am on a roll - I fix rooms without using audiophile room treatments too....[^o)] Sounds nuts when I write it like that but there you have it. Essentially what I am saying is that I can listen to a given system and assess how it might sound it the room issues are sorted out, or in another room I know. I do use a number of tricks to do this which include: If you want to eliminate a room from a system: 1. The most useful quick and dirty way to assess any system beyond the room issues is to go nearfield (within the limits of the speakers you are dealing with). You really can cut out a lot of the crap from the room this way (not all, no, but enough to get a really good idea of what is going on). It does sometimes create issues of its own but once you get an idea of what to look for, again these can be largely filtered out. If, for example, you are listening to a rather large speaker with widely spread drivers (usually vertically) this can make nearfield listening quite bizzare. Speakers designed like this (like the B&W 800 Matrix I heard just a few weeks ago) are made to be listened to from distance but it can still give you a very good impression of the individual driver performance (if not the sonic integration). It actually makes X-over issues easier to spot - but that is another story. 2. MOVE. Don't ever just sit where the owner (or you) think is the sweet spot. I cannot tell you how many houses I have been to where someone has placed me in the sweet spot totally incorrectly. I was at a house on Friday of last week and the guy thought his sweet spot was central to the speakers (generally good) but within 2 feet of the rear wall. I moved forwards about 4 feet and the sound change was dramatic - for the better. Now this is a guy with a 200,000 euro system (about $260,000) and I just made a bigger change that his cables did (I am fairly sure) spending nothing. 3. Continue to move - go off-axis, go into an adjoining room (with the system playing at sufficient volume), stand up, sit on the floor, get as far away as you can and as close as you can. When you do all of the above and a few more little loony tricks - if they don't cart you away in a little van you can start to build a picture of how the sound changes and from that the effects of the room as a whole. If you figure out what the issues are - you can then start to eliminate them from your assessments. I am assuuming here, by the way, that you want to assess the equipment and not the room. Fixing a room without audiophile room treatments. To be fair I dont think you can fix all room related issues this way - but you really can gain massive improvements..... Wonders can be achieved with curtains, furniture, carpets, rugs, paintings, wet washing and a blanket. All but the last 2 of those can be permanent treatments to unruly rooms that pass WAF if done cleverly. A single oil on canvas can cut the reflections from a bare wall to the point you cannot "see" it with your ears when listening to the system. The rest is fairly obvious - simply drawing the curtains can eliminate reflections from those dreaded balcony doors, rugs dampen down solid floors (especially marble - believe me - I go through this every year when my wife takes the carpets up for summer.) Oh yes - wet washing...tee hee....I found out quite by accident that if you have an adjoining room through a large archway or somesuch putting a wet washing on a clothes horse in the entryway almost elminiates that room from the sonic picture - try it if you do not believe me. Finally the blanket. How many of us have large screen TV's in the middle of our speakers? I know I do (part of the compromise of having a single location for TV and audio). Get the heaviest blanket you can find and throw it over the TV (with it switched off of course) - cover the screen as much as you can. Now listen to the system. Notice anything? Now actually that blanket does have another use. If you think carpets (rugs) might help your sound but dont have one to hand use the blanket - you can drag it all over the listening room seeing what difference it makes. When you find the best place for it then get your carpet to fit. The only tricky part is explaining to SWMBO why you think the Persian looks good overlapping the rear wall at an angle of 30 degrees and climbing a foot up. Obviously compromise is key here....

Not in trouble at all AFAIK. The only problem is that whilst generally one can get a vague idea of the sort of sound someone might be enjoying according to their musical tastes and equipment they own, for rooms it is nigh on impossible to get a real impression. I might be comfortable advising someone on a cartridge, arm, amp speakers etc etc but when it comes to a room it is way too much of a shot in the dark. In ACA we have the advantage of visiting each other's homes and listening to systems in situ before we make comments and make changes (it is a rare visit that does not result in some item or other getting moved or adjusted). To do this sort of thing on here would need lots and lots of pictures - descriptions of the room, the perceived issues, measurements, details on construction etc. etc. It is not impossible - just really really tricky and as so much room "treatments" is based on try it and see (hear) it could take weeks if not months to get some results. Even something as simple as positioning my sub and adjusting the volume and X-over points took me 6 months to get spot on (to my tastes of course) and I AM HERE!!!

There are many speakers that will drop down to 2 ohms at some point in the frequency spectrum - many hybrid panels do for a start. As for digital amps - contrary to popular belief they are not all bad - nor all good. I built an amp based on the Hyperex boards and was hugely diappointed in them - considering the positive reviews they have received. OTOH I am currently borrowing the MX-D1 500 wpc Yamaha amp and this is simply the best amp I have heard under $20,000. For reference I have owned many amps - tube, SS, good, bad, expensive, cheap, hi power, lower power and have heard too many systems now to remember. Sadly unlike Dave my audio memory is far from perfect. I tend to identify certain portions of a system's playback (good or bad) for comparison which often means I will miss other elements that can be better or worse than I recognised in my initial assessment. As it happens I am about to get my bluff seriously called. Was at a friends house on Friday with about $200K's worth of stereo system. Voice was best I have ever heard - but classical fell over and I said so, adding that my own humble system betters it for large scale classical. They are coming to my house to verify what I said - somewhat dubious of my claims I think - God help me - I think I am right but without that perfect audio memory who can be sure?

So you built a push pull triode using a Pentode tube? Yes? Please? Help? Huh?

Not many instruments seem to go down that low I would agree - large church organs probably being the main exception. Of course many recordings incorporate sounds lower than normal musical instruments go. The Heartbeat on DSOTM for example is supposed to go down to 27 Hz and I would argue is an integral part of the musical effect. Also if you listen to any electronic music that can go down much lower so that even the lower limit of 20Hz on a CD is cutting off some of the sound. Oh - and if you ever record an elephant they communicate over long ranges at about 10 Hz apparently. So if you dont listen to modern electronic music, organs or elephants you probably arent missing much.

I thought it was the beer. Times change.

Be interesting to hear what both of them think about their new linns - remember Allan picked up an LP12 somewhere along the line that caused (I guess) this sale in the firstplace.

So it is a triode using a pentode tube not operating in single ended mode - right? Its a parallel implementation? If the VRD is running at, say, 10 wpc and operating in triode mode this is different? When we say mock triode isnt that what ulta-linear does anyway? Damn but this stuff gives me a headache.

I think I saw him post a couple of days ago. Apparently he is now installed in oz.

Interesting speaker - seen a number of these single drive units but this is the first with such a small driver. Would love to hear one and at this price it is worth buying simply to have. As for subs. Yes - the Rel Strata 3 is about the most musical, least boomy sub commonly found. I adored mine when I ran it with the Heresy's. I only changed it out when the Heresies went. It is a very fast sub but wasnt quite fast enough for the speakers I built. In the end I went for one of these :http://www.backesmueller.de/index.php?CNT=PROD&ID=SUB2&LANG=DE But good luck finding them - they appear to be rarer than hen's teeth. Not the prettiest item in the world either - but by God they are musical.....

Well I do remember a little French. Interestingly they quote 10 grams for the LVX but then comment that this is subject to tracking weight. That is an interesting comment. If we are dealing with mass then it shouldn't matter - if we are dealing with weight then it would - but we are dealing with apparent mass and there I have no idea whether this is right or wrong. I have a feeling it is actually correct - this might well explain the better than expected performances of the 103 on some arms where the apparent mass seems to be too low. If correc then every manufacturer should be quoting their apparent mass figures with a range of numbers to represent the extremes of tracking weight they can run. A denon's 2.5 grams would certainly get the most mass available and yet for genuinely higher mass arms it probably wouldn't make than much difference. Sorry - rambling - amazing how a simple question can lead into a whole new world of possibilities.....

That is odd. I just checked the tonearm database and it backs up my figures: The effective mass figures are not showing up because they are buttons (typical) Linn Basik LVV Eff Length 229 mm Eff Mass (13.5) Overhang 18 mm Offset 24 degrees Mount Dist 211 mm Cart Mass VTA Adjust Mount Linn Headshell Removable Null Points 65.6 / 120.6 mm Price Template Linn Basik LVX Eff Length 229 mm Eff Mass (12.5) Overhang 18 mm Offset 24 degrees Mount Dist 211 mm Cart Mass VTA Adjust Y Mount Linn Headshell Removable Null Points 65.6 / 120.6 mm Price Template Ah - just a moment - there is an LVX + too but that does not have the mass listed. Could be 10 grams indeed then - if the manual says it is we should go with it. At 10 grams it is only a moderate match for the cartridge.

Touche Dave - excellent retort. Have you perchance had an opportunity to test out the audiphile stick? There the price difference in minimal.

Course if you had an analogue system you wouldn't need the stick []

If I recall correctly the Linn Basik arm has an apparent mass of between 12.5 and 13.5 grams depending on model. This is perfect match territory for the 103. You could spend a whole lot more money on the cartridge and achieve little benefit - if any. Personally I would be very tempted to stay where you are. What phono stage are you using? That will have an effect on the sonics..

"STILL FOR SALE!! A lightning strike took out the original buyer's entire system last night and he has bigger worries than getting a new turntable!" Now that really is a sign the purchase wasn't meant to be.....

Does look interesting Tom. I wonder how the motor is mounted? Not a TT I have ever seen of heard of before but it certainly looks solid enough. If the only thing missing it the belt you can always make one from an old tape cassette - it often works quite well but less so if the motor is a high torque affair. Cartridge looks like the VMS 10E: Type Moving Iron Output (1Khz 50 mm/sec) mv Freq Response 20Hz - 20kHz Output Impedance 800 ohms Load Impedance 47k ohms L/R Separation 1kHz > 25db L/R Balance 1kHz < 2db Stylus Tip Elliptical Cantilever ?? Dynamic Compliance x 10-6cm/Dyne Static Compliance 20 x 10-6 cm/Dyne VTF 1.7-2.3gm Mass: 5gm Tpyical MM fare - should be fine for starters.....

Interesting that you describe "improving the perfect volume". It is not exactly what I am refering to, however. In essence what I am looking for is. taking the best that your system can sound and making it play like that at a reduced volume. In my system with my old amp and pre-amp the perfect volume was actually lower than it is today, but, perfect volume on the new system is, to my ears, better than before musically speaking. One final point. Whilst there is certainly variation in perfect volume between recordings it does seem that I can find a perfect volume that will suffice for all music. In other words a volume that gives everything there is to get from the music - although it may be louder than required for certain pieces they do not suffer as a result.

I just picked up this LP12 a couple of weeks ago--at $1100 locally (no ebay, no Audiogon), I just couldn't pass it up. I had an LP12 through most of the 80's and also have a Linn Axis that I bought new in about 1990 that I used in a second system for a few years. I am selling the Axis. Damn but aren't I on the ball!! Gotta admit I picked that one up in an instant. Congrats on the new table - be interesting to how it actually compares with the Axis you used to have (and are now selling). OH - er - apologies Craig for the hijack - new amps look great. When is the 5 channel version coming out?

Hey Allan, That LP12 new? Been reading your posts for 6 years and it is the first time I have heard (read) you mention it. How does it compare to your beloved Thorens?

Just to repeat what others have said. Not the Denon on a low mass arm. Compliance is too low and tracking weight too high.

Wow - lots of responses. In no particular order: Paul - nice one - made me laugh. Dean and Craig - yes - varies with both listener and music (wife's prefered level is about 10 dB below mine). Who was it asked with reference to a home threatre? I think that was it anyway - sorry memory failing. Dave and Larry - yes - well above background noise levels - mine are well below 50 dB (I think I did mention that) and even the too quiet listening levels are -65-85 dB. Just right is about 70 to 90 for a typical classical recording. PF or equivalent tend to go louder with Amused to death at the 95-115 levels (that 115 is peak mind you - not long sustained) and only with wife in another city. Just a bit further on this - take a given piece of music - put it on too quiet - sounds lovely all the same and I can listen to it at this level very happily, except......I know a slight turn of the volume dial and it will be just perfect - and that hurts. Often I am listening to "too quiet" level for a period of time and quite forget about it - it really does sound wonderful - and then I go and up it a smidge and OMG it is suddenly SO obvious what has been missing. That is my perfect volume in a nutshell. I dont think it is a Fletcher Munsen issue - we are at about 60 dB minimum anyway. I think Larry is right in that is it amp related - and possibly pre-amp. Interestingly I find it is not recording noise sensitive either. I have records that appear to play dead quite (black background and all that) at lower volumes but become quite noisy at higher volumes. The perfect volume, however, is still at that higher level. Also remember - that for everything I listen to with the possibly exception of Amused to Death there is very much a maximum volume I do not like to exceed as the sonics start to suffer. There is also the minor concern that this amp of mine will blow my woofers across the room. The woofers are only rated to 100 watts.

Mike, Interesting points - although I think the dynamic range issues are a red herring in the case of minimum volume - but not maximum. The point being that at a given volume the whole thing "goes real" for want of a better phrase. From pp to FF it just feels (sounds) so right compared to even a smigen down on the volume control. The converse is also true - although this is where the dynamic range does come into play. If I raise the volume to high the FF passages just rip into my ears and the apparent distortion becomes too much to bare (sitting and listening anyway). For some recordings (eg. last movement of Sheherezade - Reiner / Chicago Symphony Orchestra - Living Stereo) the loud passages - where the whole orchestra comes in tumultuously - the actual ideal volume range is incredibly narrow, but, at the same time - too loud for use when not on my own. Our living room is such that I can close it off largely from the rest of the house and this does indeed improve the sonics but I need more. Interestingly the noise floor is not an issue. It is well sub 50 dB in my house (as long as the sliding door to the kitchen is in place as I have a refridgerator designed by Boeing!!)

Does you system have a perfect volume? By that I mean the point at which you feel you are getting all the music there is to have - but it is not so loud that it is starting to distort (possibly ear rather than system related)? Mine does - and it is a bit of a PITA because it is just slightly louder than I can listen with the rest of the house asleep. On those rare ocasions, though, when everyone else is out - oh boy does it sound good. Related to this - anyone know why this happens? Further, anyone know a good way to reduce that perfect volume level? About 5 dB would do it for me nicely. I have tried simply sitting closer to the system and this works to a point (not quite as good as turning the volume up) but dragging the recliner over the rug aint the easiest thing in the world to do.....