[2023 Subfest (A Bonehead Class) November 10th and 11th In Hope - REGISTRATION INFORMATION]

OK, all signed up.  Thanks.  Now I can book my travel.  🙂 

[2023 Subfest (A Bonehead Class) November 10th and 11th In Hope - REGISTRATION INFORMATION]

@Travis In Austin - Any update on when registration for this will be available?  I'd like to make sure I'm registered before I start booking travel that may be non-refundable.  🙂 

[Klipsch Jubilees and Roy's brand new Xilica Settings]

I've been following the "re-animation" of this thread and I think I can help with some of this.  I had saved some of the documents with DSP settings for the Underground Jubilee and the JubScala with K402/K-691 driver from this forum.  I also have a settings document for the UG Jubilee with the TAD 4002.  I'm not sure how current they are since I stupidly didn't document from which forum threads I had saved them.  All of these have the PEQ settings defined in terms of Q instead of bandwidth.  I will provide help with converting these Q values to Xilica Bandwidth numbers below.  Finally, I took the Xilica XDAT file posted earlier (Cory_master jubilee-both channels.xdat), imported it into XConsole, and took screenshots of all the settings so that there is a "human-readable" document of them.  The settings in the XDAT match up quite closely (but not exactly in some cases) with the PDF document with the exception of the 32 Hz bass boost which has a larger Q in the XDAT.  All of these are attached.

 

With respect to converting Q values to Bandwidth values, there are a number of calculators on the internet such as this one: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-bandwidth.htm.  However, to make it even easier than plugging one number at a time into a web calculator, I used the calculation methods from this page (https://www.astralsound.com/parametric-eq.htm) to create Microsoft Excel formulas.  That way you can do the conversions in bulk in a spreadsheet.

 

To Convert Q to Bandwidth in Excel (replace A1 with the cell location containing the Q value)
=(LOG((2*(A1^2)+1)/(2*(A1^2))+SQRT(((((2*(A1^2)+1)/(A1^2))^2)/4)-1)))/LOG(2)

 

To Convert Bandwidth to Q in Excel (replace A1 with the cell location containing the Bandwidth value)
=(SQRT(2^A1))/((2^A1) - 1)

KPT-KHJ-KF AND K-402-hf with k-691.pdf LS AND K-402-hf with k-691.pdf Klipsch Jubilee-TAD 4002 - EV Dx38 Settings 2 Oct 2014 (1).pdf Cory_master jubilee-Xconsole_screenshots.pdf

[Subs for La Scala's?]

13 minutes ago, Travis In Austin said:

You don't need to wait until Spring to find out everything you want to know about the Heritage Subwoofers, @Chief bonehead and the Klipsch Museum of Audio History will be doing a Subfest (A Chief Bonehead Class) on November 10th in the lab and Museum facilities in Hope. More information will be posted in the Museum Section of the Forum in the next couple of days. 

 

Save that date, and stay tuned. 

 

Travis

 

Yes!  Glad I suggested it to @Chief bonehead.  Save me a spot.  🙂 

[Subs for La Scala's?]

10 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

 

Interesting.  In this video Roy said that the one between the Klipschorns is the sub for the bass reflex Heritage models (Cornwall, Forte, Heresy) and there is a bigger one for the La Scala and Khorn.  I wonder if that one will be close to the size of the Jubilee bass bin.  More info please! 😊

[Subs for La Scala's?]

29 minutes ago, the real Duke Spinner said:

You realize a Bass Guitar only hits down to 40 hz ??

What you listening to ??

Turntable rumble ??

 

 

Several instruments besides the obvious pipe organ or synthesizer can produce fundamentals in the region of deep bass around the first two octaves (center frequencies of 16 & 32 Hz): piano, bass (not bass guitar but string bass for orchestra/jazz), tuba, harp, contrabassoon, and others.  There can also be very low bass in good recordings of all genres that pick up the room resonances, the faithful reproduction of which helps transport the listener to the venue.  So, if you listen to some types of jazz, much classical music, solo piano, other music with similar instruments, or synthesizer music then you may want a sub (or true full-range speakers like the Heritage Jubilee) that can reproduce frequencies in the deep bass octaves.

[Subs for La Scala's?]

29 minutes ago, KT88 said:

Perhaps a misunderstanding. My post was referring to the sub in the photo...compared to the KHJ. Quasi as the smaller target size and not as a criticism, it would be too big. But well, if there is an even smaller prototype version, all the better if it can meet the requirements.

 

Maybe I was misunderstanding you.  Just to be clear for everyone, according to person who posted it on Facebook, the sub in the photo is a prototype of a forthcoming Heritage subwoofer that Roy was demoing at Audio Advice Live.  He also mentioned that there was a second smaller prototype off to the side that he forgot to photograph.  So, the implication is that a line of Heritage subwoofers is planned with at least two models.  Perhaps @Chief bonehead could comment now as this was a public demo, so some information is now out "in the wild".

 

Slightly off topic, @Chief bonehead - You asked me for ideas for a new Chief Bonehead class.  A class on the R&D and demo sessions on this Heritage sub line would be another good one.  I'd attend for sure.  🙂

[Subs for La Scala's?]

1 hour ago, KT88 said:

Just a thought, if quite recently Roy/Klipsch launched a very thoughtful KJH that reaches 18 Hz, then I would test or make use of the same principles to achieve real and high quality bass down to 28 Hz (sufficient for most of music) with a smaller cabinet which fits a LaScala system.

 

The poster on Facebook mentioned that there was a second smaller Heritage sub prototype that he forgot to photograph.

[Subs for La Scala's?]

The picture from Facebook is apparently a prototype of a Heritage subwoofer.  I saw the post.  Roy was at Audio Advice in NC apparently demoing the thing.

[How to connect Axi 2050]

6 hours ago, diamonddelts said:

One other thing I noticed is Heritage Jubilee is rated at max output 125db while the JBL M2 is rated at max output 123db. Yet the M2 is recommended for small to medium rooms while the Jubilees are recommended for large rooms.

 

Yet their max output is almost equal.

 

Is this really a nit you're going to pick?  Both speakers are able to damage your hearing if played loud enough.  Perhaps @Chief bonehead can comment on why that number is what it is.

 

10 hours ago, diamonddelts said:

Yes I meant a cd containing a beryllium diaphragm. After hearing the Heritage Jubilees in person, I still feel like the HF on the Celestion 2050  is not as good as the hf on the JBL 4367 and JBL M2.  I personally feel like the Heritage Jubilee could benefit from a high frequency horn and tweeter.

 

Yes, the JBL speakers have specs that say the response goes out to 40 kHz.  This is great if your dog is trying to listen to recordings of dog whistles but is overkill for human hearing.  However, it's possible that they do have a little more audible extension at the top end than the Jubilee.  I have to admit, the one thing that my Klipsch Palladium series speakers do a little better than the Jubilee is produce a sense of "air" or "sparkle" at the very top end.  However, it's very subtle and I don't feel like I miss it when I listen to the Jubilee as they do everything else so much better.  If this is what's most important to you, then get the JBLs or something else.  However, having that additional crossover point, the sonic issues that dual diaphragm compression drivers can have, and especially the direct radiator bass means that the rest of the sonic experience is going to be inferior in my opinion.  Nothing beats horn-loaded bass for realism.

 

That said, I wonder if your listening experience for the Jubilee was properly set up.   Where did you hear the Heritage Jubilee?  Were they near any walls or corners?  If so, was the bass response corrected with something like Audyssey, Dirac, or a parametric EQ.  The Jubilee are designed to have a flat response in half-space (i.e., on a floor away from the walls).  If they were placed near the walls or corners, then you probably heard over-emphasized bass which might have given the impression of a weaker top end.  (My one big criticism of the Jubilee as a consumer product is that it comes with no way to use the DSP to do this correction.  However, most people will need to do so when placing the speakers in most normal sized rooms as putting a speaker this big away from the walls can be a problem.  Fortunately, my processor has a parametric EQ that's supported by REW.)  Also, were you on axis of the K-402 at the listening position?  Proper toe-in is important.  I found through my own experience, being too far off axis can drop off the very top end.

[How to connect Axi 2050]

21 minutes ago, diamonddelts said:

For the price, why not a beryllium cd? 

 

As I already explained, they will not be able to cover the same bandwidth to integrate properly with the Heritage Jubilee bass bin (340 Hz crossover point).  They do not have the required low frequency capability, with most of them only going down to about 500 - 600 Hz.  The Axi2050 is rated down to 300 Hz.

[How to connect Axi 2050]

Also, the Axi2050 does not a have a small diaphragm.  The AxiPeriodic annular diaphragm has a 5" voice coil.  The 108 dB sensitivity combined with 150/300 W power rating means it will handle any home sound application without breaking a sweat.

[How to connect Axi 2050]

2 hours ago, diamonddelts said:

 

The compression drivers in the KPT Cinema Grandeur look to be much beefier than the Celestion Axi 2050 used with the Heritage Jubilee. I don't see why Klipsch did not go with a more robust 3" or 4" cd with more HF extension for the Heritage Jubillees. For the asking price of the Jubilees, I feel like there could have been better quality components used.

 

The JBL 4367 and M2 speakers have much beefier cds for almost half the price of the Heritage Jubilees.

 

As @Travis In Austin mentioned earlier and as I have also heard @Chief bonehead state numerous times in person, the larger multi-way cinema systems are done purely for additional SPL for larger cinemas.  Also, other compression drivers will not be able to cover the same bandwidth to integrate properly with the Heritage Jubilee bass bin (340 Hz to 20 kHz).  The Axi2050 is plenty beefy for a home system and has plenty of HF extension when EQ'd by the DSP for the K-402.  As I stated earlier, I've measured the Heritage Jubilee in my home at both one meter and at the listening position.  The response is flat out to 20 kHz, both by the spec sheet and my own measurements.  The Cinema Grandeur is only rated flat (+/- 3 dB) to 19 Khz and is 10 dB down by 20 kHz.  The Cinema Grandeur does not have better HF extension than the Heritage Jubilee.

[Subs for La Scala's?]

I agree with @wuzzzer that you should get a horn sub.  Any direct radiator sub will have more distortion compared to the La Scala bass bins and will not sound as clean and lifelike.  As my Heritage Jubilee have taught me, there's nothing like horn-loading throughout the entire audio range.

[WTB: Single La Scala]

2 hours ago, Peacemaker said:

Don’t have a La Scala. This would be the center between my 1985 walnut oil Khorns.  

 

I imagine the Belle Klipsch would be fine with that vintage of Khorns as well, considering that Paul Klipsch created the Belle Klipsch to be a more cosmetically acceptable alternative to a La Scala center in his house.  This was done to make his first wife Belle happy, after whom the speaker is named.  🙂 

[WTB: Single La Scala]

15 minutes ago, Peacemaker said:

Thanks for the link! Would the Belle work as well as a La Scala in the center position as far as timbre matching?

 

As long as it's a similar vintage to the La Scala, I think it would match well.  What version/year of La Scala do you own?

[WTB: Single La Scala]

If you're willing to use a Belle Klipsch instead, there is a single one on US Audio Mart for a good price: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649995177-klipsch-belle-single-speakerlike-newthe-last-one-ever-made-by-klipschpick-up-only/.  The problem is that the listing is pickup only on the other side of the country.  Perhaps you could work with the seller to arrange packing and pallet shipping.

[Anyone skip Audyssey and just do REW and UMIK(or Soundcard and regular mic)?]

I used a UMIK-1 with REW to determine the bass room correction at the main listening position for my Heritage Jubilee system.  In my smallish room, there was way too much bass room gain.  Luckily, my processor has a built-in multichannel parametric EQ that is supported by REW.

[Tips to improve the acoustics?]

@babadono reminded me that I forgot to mention that I have four corner bass traps from ATS Acoustics in my Jubilee room as well.  I have them stacked in the rear corners behind the La Scala surrounds (because there is no room behind the Jubilee in the front).  I've also been contemplating adding some diffusers to the back of the room as well.

[Tips to improve the acoustics?]

For my Jubilee room I used the 2' x 4' x 2-inch thick "Hardened-Edge Acoustic Panels" from ATS Acoustics (https://www.atsacoustics.com/ATS-hardened-edge-acoustic-panels.html).  These panels have no wood frame and are therefore very light weight.  For the ceiling I created a 4-panel cloud.  Since the panels are so light, I was able to hang them with some hooks with wall anchors and two lengths of closet pole using the Rotofast Cloud Anchors (with cable ties) that are one of the hanger options when purchasing the panels.  For the walls, I used the same panels at the first reflection points on the side and rear walls that I located using the mirror method (putting a mirror against the wall, sitting at the listening position, and seeing there the reflections of the speakers were) and two on the front wall between the speakers.  I also used the Rotofast Cloud Anchors to hang these as well.  I simply used large picture frame hooks to hold the circle part of the cloud anchor.  Unfortunately, the panels are a bit pricy.  However, since I stink at wood working, it was worth it to me.

[Cornwall4s in 10x10 room]

44 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

So you’ll be sitting about 5-6 ft. In front of them and they’ll be about 5 ft. apart.  Horns don’t make very good near field monitors.

 

Good luck…

 

I would have to disagree with this.  I have La Scala AL5 as surrounds in the back corners of in my Jubilee room.  My seating position is only 5 1/2 ft. from each La Scala.  They cohere fine at that distance and are not at all harsh as I have the levels correctly balanced for the 5.0 setup.  It's the most realistic surround setup I have ever owned.  I also did some quick and dirty tape measure estimating for about a 10' x 10' room.  If seated close to the opposite wall, you should be around 7 ft. away.  It would be a little much it you wanted it to be a "living room", but if this is going to be a "La Scala room" I would be fine with it.

[Cornwall4s in 10x10 room]

5 hours ago, Eric Vanderlinden said:

Wow! Ok cornwalls 82, I guess the profit has spoken! My apologies if I’ve offended your vast knowledge of proper speaker/room relationship. I initially posted wondering if anyone had luck with cw4s in small room? Most of the chatter I got was slamming the heresy’s. If I had a buck every time someone gives an opinion i didn’t ask for…..  spotted an article somewhere with Roy Delgado talking about big horns in small rooms. Gonna check it out. Maybe I’ll learn something cw82🙉

 

I can confirm that Roy Delgado (aka @Chief bonehead) has said many times (in person and on this forum) that "smaller rooms need bigger horns".  It's possible that I may be the king of large speakers in a smaller room as I have Heritage Jubilee in a 13' x 17' room.  it was Roy who encouraged me to go ahead with my plans to get the Jubilee for my smallish living room.  While it's now more of a "Jubilee room" than a living room, I love my setup.  So, don't let any discourage you from putting larger speakers into a smaller room if you have the space and desire to accommodate them.  The issues you will have with Heresy in a small room are the exact same issues that you will have with Forte or Cornwall.  You will need to control room reflections, control bass room gain, and use proper toe-in.  Proper room treatment, bass room correction, and experimenting with speaker position will be the solutions in either case.  The larger mid-range horn in the Cornwall will actually control directivity lower and reduce reflections.  I'm of the opinion that you should get the largest speakers that you are willing to put in your room.

[2 way LaScala with 510 horn]

The Celestion Axi2050 is what I used on my 2-way modified Belle Klipsch center.  I selected that since I wanted to match the HF driver in my Heritage Jubilee.  It is certainly a better driver than the K-691.  However, what drivers are you using on your UG Jubilee?  The stock K-691?  If so, the perhaps you should stick to that to match.  Either way, I'd go active. 

[SOLD - Palladiums]

Too bad you aren't closer.  I would take that center off your hands.  😢  Good luck with the sale.  If you want, email me the pictures and I can resize them and post them to the thread.  Message me if you are interested.

[How to connect Axi 2050]

10 hours ago, diamonddelts said:

I don't think Klipsch is making the Palladium speakers  anymore. I was fascinated by their specs and they looked amazing.  I saw that Mmurg owned a pair before he moved on to the Heritage Jubilees. 

 

I still own all my Palladium speakers.  They were my "endgame" speakers until I heard that the Heritage Jubilee was coming.  They are fantastic, just not as good as the Jubes.  🙂  Unfortunately, you are correct that Klipsch isn't making them anymore.  The line was discontinued in 2016.  So, that mostly means buying used like I did.  However, Paducah Home Theater does happen to have two pair of "new old stock" P-38F that were sent to dealers for short demo sessions and then returned and placed in storage.  They are selling for half of the original retail price.  They also have new old stock P-312W subs as well.  However, when purchasing Palladiums today you have to take into consideration the pretty much complete lack of replacement parts.  Klipsch no longer has any.  I've been watching eBay, etc. and have found some used drivers parted out from speakers with damaged cabinets for "just in case" spares.  Definitely worth a listen if you can find a place to hear them though.