TheEAR Posted February 10, 2002 Share Posted February 10, 2002 HornEd, "I am looking to see if the drivers working in opposition really create the advantages that are theoretically possible." I will bet your horns they do. M&K has proven this time and again,their subs are as clean as musical as they come.You could have a very nice surprise,and with two Ultras the output is always there when needed. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 >>>Indeed it might be a plan for a new residence that is in the offing, TV. What kind of specs could I expect from an autographed ICBM?<<< The limiting factors would be the size of the tubes,the weight we could get shipped across the country safely...and the cost factors. If you said *unlimited* for all of the above....we could probably discuss 15-18dBs more headroom(or about the same as having 10-15 CS_Ultras in the room) >>>Does stacking the subs take away from the "free" ride multiplier effect that comes with the proximity of the floor?<<< It shouldn't. The drivers will be about 3 ft further away from the 3rd boundary...but the 1,2 boundaries(the two walls) will still be NF(nearfield). And the porting moves about 3ft closer to the 3rd....so it's a wash. >>>Frankly, I think I did better when I had the Ultras flanking the mains... but I am still tweaking. Don't get me wrong... it's been wonderful getting to first and second bass... I'm just pushing for a perfect game.<<< You're doomed to tweak...accept it.. I remember a phone conversation I had with my mentor(Stan the man)a few months ago. I sighed...(paraphrasing) "I can't wait until I'm done R/D ing on the CS+,the SS,and then the upcoming PC+,and PC_U and then the PC_SS.(and a few other surprised will be talking about shortly). Because I'm not building/measuring any new stuff for 6 months after that." He laughed hard and loud. And when he was done, he told me I'd be building something off the wall on the second day of my *vacation*...as I'm doomed to constantly be R/D-ing. With guys like us(and many others on this forum)...there is no destination(perfect game)...we just keep moving forward as fast as we can...so we don't reflect on that. >>I was thinking about having a custom steel or aluminum ring made that would allow me to keep the port cover on and have the ring fit the shoulder just outside... and then have three feet that extended up the sides to embrace the second Ultra. Of course, if it makes more sense structurally to use the inside of the ring, I can do that too.<< I would use the outside of the ring as you have described. >>>I have an artist friend who builds large, prize winning, metal sculptures. I may commission him to build a far out subs holder... his style is very whimsical and esoteric. Like a bluesman with a soulful face thumping on a floating keyboard... all made out of shaped steel. At least it will be solid! His work now goes for more than the cost of the subs and I helped him get his start. This may get very interesting.<<< If you want him to build whole custom enclosures for you...I could offer some advice on the internal volumes..and the porting issues to consider. >>>By the way, TV, I have always believed that deep bass demanded leather furniture... and now I have a quote from a V.P. Acoustical Engineering, Floyd E. Toole, Ph.D., "Oh yes, leather upholstered furniture is also a membrane absorber, and also provides vibratory sensations to stimulate the audience. H-m-m-m." My oversized, glove-leather, smack-in-the-middle of the sweetspot LazyBoy is a favorite spot for the neighborhood kids... especially with the recliner extended.<<< Toole is the man. I bet the kids love TPM! >>>BTW, TV, did you get a chance to see the KLF-30 Center speaker in the above photo? Since so much sound is poured through the center speaker in 5.1 and above, the three KLF-30 front mains are a dream... a dream set to "SMALL" that dovetails exquisitely with the Twin Ultras... and brings out their best.<<< Yes, quite interesting. I remember you mentioned this project a while back. Good to see it a reality. It's a damn shame to highpass those at 80hz...but you can't fool mother nature... >>>Congratulations to you and your associates on your continuing success... <<< Thank you, it's been interesting, TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 >>>TV, Now you are serious about sub bass! Did you finish the sub,how does it perform?Drivers used? The Ultra's drivers or the new SVS SS drivers?<<< Hi Ears, I built the 30" tube you saw about 3-4 years ago...used Hsu 1201s back then. >>>Try these monsters(look a bit like the driver in the SS...more linear and peak to peak,plus these are 15"!)<<< There's some air moving capability there, that's for sure. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 >>>Well guys, I bought the pieces I need to build an 84" dual Ultra SVS tower. I am looking to see if the drivers working in opposition really create the advantages that are theoretically possible. I'll let you know in the next day or two. HornEd<<< Two distinct factors to consider, 1)driver forces will cancel(if the driver moves one way, the enclosure will want to move the other way). This has nothing to do with MK,...as they don't employ this. 2)non linear motor aspects. flip one driver around...so it's *** its hanging our of the enclosure....and wire them out of phase. this is the Mk thing. You could reduce even order harmonics induced by non linear driver movement. The problem is the odd order harmonics are the ones that sound bad. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Thats why people like the 2nd order harmonics of tube amplifiers. I geuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 11, 2002 Author Share Posted February 11, 2002 TV and all you lurkers out there that are as fascinated as I am with this bottom-dwelling adventure... The preliminary results are in from the stacked Ultras... "stacked" beats "side-by-side" in every way except possibly structural integrity. I have tried several different methods and will post a photo with the winning combination. Maybe I listened to one too many bass configurations... but my impression is that mating the two bottoms in a single column puts them at about "ear height" to someone sitting in the "sweetspot." Thus, it becomes an "in-your-face" sub experience quite unlike any other that I have experienced. Damn, it looks like I am going to have to listen to all those movies with serious bass all over again... for the umpteenth time. TV, when I have had odd shaped, oversized and semi-precious cargo to send across the country, I have usually gotten the best deal from BAX Global (Originally the airfreight arm of Burlington Northern) and ship the goods strapped to a pallet. That's how I shipped my 1570's era Journeyman Press from Fort Worth to San Francisco. I look forward to commissioning you to build an ICTV (Intraplanetary Climax - Tom Vodhanel) model for my next home... but right now, I'm having too much fun catching big bass nuances while my mother is vacationing in Texas. Treble, what's treble? Hmm, I'll have to ask Seb how to pump it up! HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Jett Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Great looking room HornEd!! Good to see you back here again, you were missed. Also looking forward to the pictures of whatever you come up with for the Ultras placement. Sounds very interesting to say the least. Curt ------------------ Mains: RF-3s Center: RC-3 Rears: RS-3s Sub: Dual SVS 20-39cs Fidek 600 watt pwr amp (subs) Receiver: Onkyo 696 DVD: Toshiba 6200 TV: Mits Diamond WS65907 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 TV, The new MTX competition woofers should be called AIR PUMPS. I am saving for the SVS SS right now TV,I want these mean street beasts.The Ultras were plenty,the SS should be over the top. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted February 12, 2002 Share Posted February 12, 2002 treble... AAAAHHHHH!! you're not talking about that piercing sound coming from my Sony speakers, are you?? I thought that was some kind of alien interference! You mean people actually intentionally mix high-pitched sounds in movie soundtracks?? That's it, I'm disconnecting my main speakers and listening to the bass only. (i have actually done that. and I lied on the sub to feel the vibrations. don't laugh. I need to go to sleep.) ------------------ http://sebdavid.150m.com go laugh at my crappy website... This message has been edited by Seb on 02-12-2002 at 11:23 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted February 12, 2002 Share Posted February 12, 2002 testing... ------------------ http://sebdavid.150m.com go laugh at my crappy website... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 13, 2002 Author Share Posted February 13, 2002 Well, Seb, the deed is done. Now there is a seven foot tall monster double bass tower in the corner. After days of roaming Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I came up with a solution out of my own storage area. I ran across a three sided, 5' tall, pot rack from my chef days made of heavy chrome steel. I picked up some heavy aluminum cross pieces and bowed them so that the three aluminum cross pieces bolted to the three chrome legs. One Ultra was inverted and placed inside, with the ring resting on the Dynamat cushioned aluminum cross pieces. Another set of three bowed cross pieces connect the legs through the "bottom" of the inverted Ultra. Since an Ultra is 39" and there is a 4" space for the ports to do their thing... that leaves 17" the legs extend upward to cradle the second Ultra... placed right side up on the inverted one. Very solid, very stable. A whole houseful of bass on a 17" circular footprint. This has been a busy week, but I will try to post a photo soon. So far, I have become a real fan of opposing motors in a dual sub configuration... very smooth. There is a seamless integration of the subs with the "3MAIN" front of KLF-30's... Now, I need to find a reasonably priced black KLF-C7 (I paid $230 for the last one, two weeks old and in mint condition) and use them for Front Effects speakers. Don't forget to schedule a romantic DVD for your Valentine! HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 HE, you move fast! congrats on being the 1st i know to stack cylinder subs! does this in effect allow the subs to reinforce each other? in essence giving you more of the "tightness" of sealed subs? is there a quality/quantity trade-off here or are you getting the same output as before? ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 13, 2002 Author Share Posted February 13, 2002 Well, Boa, if something seems worth doing and I have the resource set to make it happen... it usually happens sooner rather than later. The preliminary test I made in this case was to invert one Ultra and then play some good HT bass material as well as test DVD's. The quality of the bass (tightness, etc.) seemed to improve. I have enough headroom with the pair of Ultras that I have yet been asked to "pump up the bass!" (Line used with apologies to Seb). My greatest concern was losing the floor as a "free" bass boost. But as Tom Vodhanel indicated above, that seems to be a wash with increased nearness of the ceiling. Stacking the units so that the woofers are facing each other seems to have real, as well as, theoretical benefits... but Ultras start at such a high level of all around performance that tweaking for more is largely the province of certifiable bass heads. I learned of one other SVS Tower (from the above reply) that was made by "OBI the audiophile" from some smaller tubes. His stacking method was much simpler than mine, but by his own admission, he lives in Florida... not smack on top of the San Andreas Fault in San Francisco like I do! I like the one sub footprint with two sub output. I expect to do some extensive testing over the next week or so, particularly with placement and metered SPL's. When I think I have the enough hard evidence, I will post it with photos of this "NBA sized" seven footer. I started testing with an excellent 5.1 DVD of Mozart and it was so enjoyable... I just kept pouring the classics to it. The bass handling is so transparent between the KLF-30's and the SubTower that leaning back and enjoying the music was too tempting. So, I guess, now, it's time to around! HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 02-13-2002 at 09:25 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Man, HornEd...you are one ingenous bassophile! What an incredible idea for your subs to support your Legend loaded HT rig. IMHO you actually have 7 Legends in your HT room when you are sitting in that big bad leather chair Can't wait to see the pics of the sub tower (is that an oxymoron)? ------------------ Ed W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 ed, got an idea for your bass mgmt. have u thought of adding an active low pass crossover in line w/ the svs? then u could set that like at 40-50hz & put all big speaks on the large setting so they don't get limited in that 2nd octave. & also then not that overlap w/ the svs running to a low pass cut of 90hz. the reason this could work w/ your yammy is that from what i've heard here it has a feature that lets u send LFE to both the sub preout & to other speaks (probably those set large or maybe just the mains(?)). anyway w/ this u then wouldn't lose any lfe because it's also going to those other speakers. u may find letting those 30s produce more, tighter, cleaner bass slam below that 90hz point sounds better. that's what i've found. of course the ideal would be a high pass & low pass at the same lower point. but even tv said it was a shame to cut those 30s at 90hz. just a thought. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 13, 2002 Author Share Posted February 13, 2002 I have been down that road before, Boa, and maybe I should try it again with this new set up. TV's comment was that it was a shame not to use the 30's at their fullest but he also added, "you can't fool mother nature." As waves get dramatically longer under 90Hz, room dynamics play more and more of a part in who gets to hear how much bass. For the moment, the bass support for my Klipsch beauties set to "SMALL" is something to hear. I am listening to a 5.1 Fleetwood Mac (with the USC Marching Band) from my computer room down the hall. Believe me Boa, there is no shortage of bass or full-range musicality. About half the wall surface of the HT is covered with floor to ceiling drapes and matching valences (the part that looked like an "awning" to you). Before that, Dizzy Gillespie's DVD from Royal Albert Hall featured the Latin Jazz of the United Nation pick-up band... fantastic sound... lotsa drums! Like I said earlier, I will be testing things for a week or so. The stand was built so that the subs can be easily restored to their original configuration. I will make some stand modifications after the tests are through. I rushed this photo because so many wanted to see the interim results. As for me, I going back and enjoy for a bit! Love that big theater Klipsch/SVS sound! HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig6519 Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Damn HornEd, How much better can your system get? It looks great, and I love the subs!! Craig ------------------ Klipsch KLF30 Mains (OAK) Klipsch KLF-C7 Front Center (OAK) Klipsch KLF-C7 Rear Center (OAK) Klipsch KSP-S6 Surrounds Dual SVS 20-39CS+ Sub's Samson S1000 Sub Amp H/K AVR 520 (2)Acurus 200x3 Yamaha MDX-793 Mini disc Sony CDP-C701ES 5 disc Player Sony S565D DVD Hitachi MX6080EM Muli-system HI-FI VCR Hitachi 29" T.V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 10-4 may want to give it a whirl ed. though tv might also say it'd be a shame to cut those svs at 40-50hz. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montigue Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 As I'm gazing at horned's pic and druling over it. The only thing I can think of is how nice it must be to be rich. Monty ____________________________________ Klipsch KG 5.2 Klipsch KLF C-7 Klipsch Quintets Mitsubishi 47" HD1080i projection tv Toshiba pro scan/dvd audio dvd player Sony Hi Fi VCR Harman Kardon AVR 65 SVS 20-39cs w/Samson S1000 amp This message has been edited by montigue on 02-13-2002 at 08:42 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 13, 2002 Author Share Posted February 13, 2002 Monty, rich is a state of mind. A few years ago, I was ripped off for $22 mil... plus a major interest in a national company. I spent years thinking about how much better the local pan handler's cash position was better than mine. I worried about what I lost... and futilely spent hundreds of thousands trying to get it back through the courts. I should have spent the time making life anew... instead my woe is me attitude just helped me down the road to heart attacks and diabetes. While it is true that I can afford many things, I started out with nothing and built several fortunes since the age of 16. I have two ex-wives with one fortune each. I have already lived longer than the doc's predicted... and my 94 year old mom has a much better life expectancy than I do. I don't owe anyone anything... except perhaps the time of day and a little courtesy for being a fellow human being. I have no credit debt. All my vehicles, houses, etc. have been paid in cash for the last thirty or so years. I don't have to worry where my next meal is coming from... just if I will be there to eat it. I have led an adventurous life... and have the scars, aches and pains to prove it. I have had the opportunity to know, and have as clients, many famous people... but that doesn't give me someone to say "good night" to. Frankly, if I could trade places with you... youth, health, companionship and all... I would certainly feel more rich than I do today. Count your blessings, my friend, and then learn how to make a return on whatever they are... and make the world a little richer for your having sucked up its benefits and left the wrappers for society. I don't mean to be hard on you, but there was nothing easy about getting in the position I am in... and it's likely you can be even richer with a creative attitude. You've got a good Klipsch start... now start planning a way to have a better system... without buying a lottery ticket! Okay, soap box is but away, please pass the popcorn I'm happy this old hide can still go seek... and that I still have one good eye, two mediocre ears and a driver's license. Time to kick back and see how well this puppy does 6.1+ tonight. Lucky HornEd... just lucky enough to figure out how to avoid the sharpshooters in war and the "something for nothing" sharpies in peace... and drool over the life potential of my friend, Monty. At best money is a tool... not a scorecard. The one with the most toys riding in the hearse is NOT the winner. My favorite ex-wife once said, "Ed has everything he wants... because if he wants something, he will create the means to get it." It's a pro-active thing, Monty... not a sitting on your bag o' money thing and buying your way to fame and fortune. HornEd PS: If I didn't care about folks like you... I would not have near as much to say. H.E. This message has been edited by HornEd on 02-14-2002 at 03:47 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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