Dedicated circuit question....

[Coytee]

I'm not an electrician so I don't even know if this is possible or unsafe for other reasons that I'm unaware of...

Current situation is, when I had some tube amps (now gone), if I had the system on and the wife turned on the Kirby... my breaker tripped. That told me (aside from the breaker being less tolerant) that I was using the bulk of my capacity.

Move things to downstairs and right now, I'm planning on having several circuits so if I have several tube amps (worst case would be four since I'm biamping)

Anyways... I would not want them all on the same line and save it from some stress. I'm planning on having say, 6 outlets and each outlet with its own breaker.

OR, it dawned on me... instead of running some 12-2wg to these seperate lines, would there be some merit in running a single 10-2wg and put more of the breakers on a higher rated circuit, thereby keeping their ground the same? What if I used 8g?

I know there's an expense for the thicker wire so that's not what I'm asking about. I don't mind additional expense if it's going to really HELP.

I DO seem to recall however, my brother in law telling me once that 10g wire is rather difficult to attach to an outlet. I just now remembered that.

Fortunately for me, the builder isn't to the electrical stage in the new room so I have some time to ponder.

[Guest " "]

What I think of when I read thru your post is a sub panel. A sub panel is a small breaker box located in a section of a facility. The sub panel contains circut breakers.

Advantage to the sub panel is that instead of running multiple 20 amp runs from your localized section of the facility, you would run one large one between the main panel and the sub panel.

Sub panels have a service rating for example 60 amps (30 amps red, 30 amps black). two breakers would be needed in your main panel to protect the sub panel.

You would then run individual runs from your sub panel to your utility outlets. You also need to consider lighting and heating if electric. So for example, your 60 amp sub panel might provide 10 amps of lighting on the black phase, 20 amps of lighting on the black phase, and two 15 amps outlets on the red phase for electronics.

The service rating of the sub panel would have to be subtracted from the service rating of the main panel if connected on the load side of the main panel breaker.

One thing to think about is what phase your refrigerators, waskers, dish washers, air conditioning is on. Ideally, you would want you audio gear on the oppisite phase. example. Motorized appliances on black, electronic's, lighting electric heating on red

[Me Loves Khorns]

I know this has probably been asked here before, but here goes again.

How much is too much equipement to plug into one outlet before it is overloaded. If it is 'overloaded' so to speak, will it just throw the breaker or will something bad happen? Like that atom smasher in Europe?

I know so terribly little about electricity and its issues.

I know a lot of stuff about menopause, fertility, cancer, ovaries, etc, etc.

So, anyway, how can you know?

Paul

[Me Loves Khorns]

So, I have a PS audio distributer, filter, whatever thing. If I plug everything into it will it stop before it gets overloaded?

[LarryC]

I think you'll want to be aware of whether amperages or wattages on a given circuit are adding up to the total possible/maximum load on that circuit. The standard lights-and-outlets circuit is made to handle 15 amps -- the circuit breaker limits total current to 15 amps, and that circuit's wiring is 14 gauge. The following chart identifies wire/amperage/breaker sizes:

Wire Size	Rating (Amperage)	Breaker Size (Amps)
#14	15 A.	15 A.
#12	20 A.	20 A.
#10	30 A.	30 A.
#8	45 A.	40 A.
#6	65 A.	60 A.
#3	105 A.	100 A.

Theoretically, the standard 15-amp circuit handles 15 X 120v = 1,800 watts max. A 20-amp handles 20 X 120 = 2,400 watts max. I mostly go by how the amps are adding up. Richard, if your former tube electronics totalled 400 watts, that would be at least 3.3 amps, and a 12-amp vacuum cleaner would put it at or over what a 15 amp circuit breaker and 14 ga. wiring is supposed to handle, so it's no surprise that the breaker flipped.

No reason whatever to go with 10 ga. wire. That's for heavy-duty high-current major electrical appliances. 12 ga. is tough enough for you and electricians to handle. I don't see how the number of outlets would factor into this.

Paul, your PSAudio item would have a maximum amp or wattage rating. I'd stay comfortably below that -- I don't have more than 100 watts plugged into my PSAudio P-300 (300 watts max.).

[Coytee]

I know a lot of stuff about menopause, fertility, cancer, ovaries, etc, etc.

So, anyway, how can you know?

I'd perhaps draw an analogy that you know you're at the end of your electrical circuit when you attach a defibrillator to the ovaries of a woman who's in menopause.... try that once and you will know what it's like to overload your electrical circuit.

I'm sure she'll throw your breaker...or at least...something bad will happen, very much like the atom smasher in Europe, however, the little atom will be your head and the atom smasher will be her temper!

I'm just speculating, so this is only a theory. Perhaps if you try it once, we can verify my analogy?

Please don't forget to take video...

[:|] [~]

[jacksonbart]

I haven't been to the circus in years

[BLSamuel]

I haven't been to the circus in years

[] And all this time I thought you were the Ringmaster "Ladies, and gentlemen, children of all ages..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringmaster_(circus)

[InVeNtOr]

when i had my house built i asked an electrican (side job) to install a dedicated line in my living room for my ht. it only cost me $85. i got a new breaker, wire, outlet, plate...etc. not a bad deal. that way i had nothing on that line. i also invested in a Furman 20pfi. don't know if you know what that does, but basically i can suck up, up to 55 peak amps. with that device i won't have any issues with bass or my sound being flat because my amp or receiver didn't get enough juice.

i have everything plugged into the furman and the furman plugged into just that one dedicated outlet. that way if i were to trip that breaker or simply want everything off, i had just one switch to throw (or i could throw the switch on the furman itself).

i would reccemend running a 12/3 (better for emi) to a single outlet and then have something like a furman to protect it all. now if you want to run 3+ amps, processor, 2 subs, dvd, tv, ps3, blu-ray, cd, etc, then i would run 2ea 12/3 dedicated lines to one outlet and buy 2ea furman 20pfi's. that would be very overkill but you would never have any problems with your gear.

just my advice....good luck.

[Guest " "]

" I mostly go by how the amps are adding up"

also...depending if amps have standby or not...there is a think called in rush current which is a power demand surge which can be 3X the rated power consuption.

Motorized devices such as vacum cleaners, refrig's, washers, dyers, ac compressors, also have in rush considerations

hair dryers and electric heating element appliances draw more power as their elements go into glow mode....which is why hair dryers blow breakers minutes after they start to run.

[JJkizak]

Even though you have a 20 amp breaker it is standard practice to never load it up to draw more than 80% of its rating. Otherwise I garantee it will trip every time and eventually cook it very dead.

JJK

[Coytee]

You guys must have a lot of very unusual and exotic super powered audio gear. I've had "stereos" for over 40 years, including some bi-amped and tri-amped systems and I can not ever recall tripping a 20A house breaker with audio equipment. I've got to catch up to the times.

It might seem your wife never turned the vacume on when your system was playing then!! []

When this specifically happened to me, I had my dbx Bx1 solid state amp, McIntosh MC-2102 (2x100 tubed), Peach, CD player, TV, Dx38 turned on. I also do not know if/what anything else might have been on that circuit...Indeed, all of that was and still is, jammed into a single outlet. I don't THINK there was anything else...

Then the wife went into clean the house mode, turned the vacume on and a few minutes later, poof. All went dead. Seems the outlet around the corner is the same circuit as this one with all the electronics plugged in. This has happened a couple times so I want to be 100% certain that I can prevent it from happening again, even if my solution is overkill. Another reason I'm wanting to do something like this is to simply un-jam all the plugs. Now, I know to plug the vacume into a different outlet or turn system off. Truth be told, since moving the BX1 amp out as well as the McIntosh amp, this hasn't tripped since but I'm not comfortable with the situation.

You figure, I've got at my disposal, 2 amps for biamping, Dx38, CD player, DVD player, Preamp (actually have two), TV and that right there is seven plugs. If I want to bring another item into the system to play around with, even if it's not a permanant piece, I'll need yet more plugs/outlets. I've already yanked my dbx BX5, dbx 14/10 eq, dbx 120 and dbx 400 out of the system... that was another 4 plugs...

What I was thinking on doing is, having my little cubbyhole (hole in wall above LaScalas where I might build some shelves) with maybe three or four outlets so I'd have six or eight individual plugs without having to deal with a powerstrip.

I also intend on having two plugs on the other side of the room, where the Jubilees will be sitting, so I could put an amp over there if I ever wanted to. I've also wired XLR wires to that location so I'd not need a 50' RCA cord. I might never do the amps on the far side of the room but I'd like the flexability to do so if I wanted to.

Side benefit of doing that would be removing the clutter and plugs from the little cubbyhole area which is going to be something like 30" wide by 48/55" tall.

[Don Richard]

After you run a dedicated circuit to one wall outlet, consider using one of these to plug everything into:

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=PL-PLUSC

I just bought one of these new on sale for $95. They are designed for pro sound equipment, which you are using in your system. It has excellent EMI filtration, surge protection, and overvoltage protection. Models are available that include metering for input voltage, voltage and current, or no metering. All devices are referenced to an uncontaminated ground. They are rack mounted and are rather heavy for a small box.

[LarryC]

It might seem your wife never turned the vacume on when your system was playing then!!

When this specifically happened to me, I had my dbx Bx1 solid state amp, McIntosh MC-2102 (2x100 tubed), Peach, CD player, TV, Dx38 turned on. I also do not know if/what anything else might have been on that circuit...Indeed, all of that was and still is, jammed into a single outlet...

Then the wife went into clean the house mode, turned the vacume on and a few minutes later, poof. All went dead. Seems the outlet around the corner is the same circuit as this one with all the electronics plugged in. This has happened a couple times so I want to be 100% certain that I can prevent it from happening again, even if my solution is overkill. Another reason I'm wanting to do something like this is to simply un-jam all the plugs. Now, I know to plug the vacume into a different outlet or turn system off.

I'd wager that's a standard 15-amp circuit, not the 20 that Mark mentioned.

It was a lot of work, but I did a circuit diagram for my house, so I know which circuit every outlet and light is on (the circuits are numbered in your breaker panel). That way, I can add up how many amps are on a particular circuit.

Adding a dedicated audio circuit is a handy way of being able to total your amperage on that circuit and freeing up your other outlets.

[TNRabbit]

FYI: Most household circuits are 15 amp. Most vacuum cleaners draw 12-15 amps. This is WITHOUT the startup inrush! Microwaves are another high current unit that should be on their own circuit (code in many places). Avoid using these devices on your audio circuits

You may have thought you were near you max with the amps, but I seriously doubt it. The MOST ASTOUNDINGLY power hungry amps will draw @1800 watts at FULL BORE (15 amps). When I get my sound room set up, I plan to run 2 30 amp circuits JUST FOR AMPS, then 2 more 20 amp circuits for everything else. This is overkill, but I'm that kinda guy. In most cases, unless you listen to your incredibly powerful amps at 90%, you can run everything off a 15 amp circuit. Otherwise, a 20 amp single circuit will do. I have a Sunfire 400x7 amp driving 4-ohm Carver AL-III speakers; the amp is fused at 1800 watts. I also run a Sunfire TG-IV processor, Carver & Sony CDPs, and a Benchmark DAC-1 digitial to analog converter, all on one 15 amp circuit I SELDOM trip the circuit breaker they are on along with a couple of lights in the room, and I listen to it LOUD on incredibly inefficient speakers.

[Mike Price]

I AM an electrician , have been for 13 years , and there is absolutely bennefit from running 10AWG wire , its called voltage drop. Your amps power ratings assume a steady 120V ac at the wall outlet , the amperage ratings on romex are only good for a certain distance then they drop , #14 wire at a length of 200 ft won't even carry 10 amps let alone 15 , also the guy who said not to run multiple circuits because of ground noise was correct reason being there will be small differences in impedance on each ground run , your equipment will then choose the path of least resistance and hum like crazy. The best thing for you to do is run one dedicated circuit , A 30amp breaker with #10awg wire should suffice if the wire length is under 90 feet , if its over 90 feet up the wire size to #8awg , still on a 30amp breaker ,m the will prevent any voltage drop. Going this route there will be no ground loops , and you will have 3600 watts continuous available for your system. As far as getting the wire on to the receptacle , there are 15 , 20 , and 30 amp rececptacles that accept the proper size wire accordingly. If your run is over 90 feet and you have to go up to #8 , you simply wirenut 3 short pigtails of #10 at the receptacle , problem solved , hope this helps you , mike price

[Mike Price]

Just realized i skipped something , as you reach the maximum amperage of the wire the voltage goes down too , long before the breaker trips this is why people see there lights dim and such when other applicances , or "really big amps" are in use , if your amplifiers are receiving less than the required 120v at the wall they also lose substantial output capability

[InVeNtOr]

well darn, maybe i should have asked the guy to run 10awg wire instead of 12awg. it's only around 75' long.

[Mike Price]

At 75 feet , #12AWG is good for 20AMPS , or 2400 Watts at 120VOLTS , you should be good as long as there is nothing else drawing major current from that circuit. BUT if , for example , you plug in a vaccum on the same breaker , it would noticeably decrease your amplifiers output.

[michael hurd]

As an aside, there are amplifers out there that will pull more current than standard 15 amp circuits allow. QSC PL 6.0PFC, PL 6.0II and PL 9.0PFC come with 30 amp twist lock plug and 10awg cordset, they can pull some major amperage.

If you want more power available without voltage sag, and resultant power loss, look for '230v' "export" model amplifers, and run them instead. 240vac is within the design tolerance of most designs, if you aren't sure contact the company. You may also be able to have some amps converted by the factory, I know when I asked, it was about $ 90 each to switch my QSC's over to 230v plus shipping.