Good Beethoven Recordings?

[BuyOtherSoundEquipment]

This is to Mallete, LarryC and others who are in the know about good recordings-

I've been searching for some decent recordings of this great composer, and have had very little luck.

Just yesterday I found a CD called "The Best of Beethoven" from a company called "Madacy Special Products"- TWO CDs for just $2.... it should have been an indication. The first track, symphony no. 5 literally sounds a 96kbps or lower mp3 file. I've heard many a bad MP3 and this is among the worst. A complete waste.

I've bought some Telarc SACDs from Berkshire Record Outlet's sale and was
very impressed. I bought Copland's Appalachian Spring as well as
Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique. Listening to just the Red Book version,
they sound GREAT. I'd like to find some recordings of Beethoven with the same quality.

I have another "Beethovens Best Hits" CD from some no-name outlet and it doesn't sound much better. Not terrible, but nowhere near those recordings I mentioned.

Any suggestions?

[Mallette]

I am not at home so I can't check on which I've liked on CD. I CAN state that if you can hunt down any of the Beethoven BiCentennial LP's made by DGG they are extraordinary. Finest performances this side of Furtwangler and surperb, quiet pressings.

I'll try to check on other possibilities in the next couple of days and get back to you.

Dave

[LarryC]

Wow, Beethoven is a HUGE project! Good Beethoven recordings are a huge step beyond that. Beethoven was such a great composer that almost every work in most of his categories -- symphonies, concertos, piano sonatas, piano trios -- are world beaters.

What works, or what kind of works, appeal to you so far? It's hard to deal with what you ask without a little better idea. Are you interested in LPs, CDs, or DVDs?

While you're sorting that out, how about a great, educational DVD on his Third Symphony, the "Eroica"? The San Francisco Symphony has issues 4 DVDs in a "Keeping Score" series, and the Eroica is one of them! You get some movement-by-movement analysis and introduction to some instruments and players by the conductor, Michael Tilson Thomas, and then a full performance by him leading the SFS. See http://www.shopsfsymphony.org/shop/product.php?productid=957&cat=42&page=1

Too bad you live 300 miles away. We're having a couple of days here in Bethesda including a concert w/Tchaikovsky's 4th at a good local hall. I and Michael Colter are going to be listening to a LOT of recordings this Friday and Saturday.

Let us know any further thoughts and how we can help.

[greg928gts]

http://www.chesky.com/core/details.cfm?PRODUCTCODE=CD066&productcategoryid=1

From Chesky Records - Symphony #9 by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra

Greg

[BuyOtherSoundEquipment]

Thanks for the responses, gents.

Larry, I'm interested primarily in CDs (or SACDs) and DVDs. I'm just beginning my music-collecting journey, but I do plan to get into LPs eventually.

As greg928gts mentioned, Symphony #9 is by far one of my most beloved classical pieces, and both versions I have on CD are TERRIBLE! I'm also looking for Symphony #5, #6, Piano Sonata #14 and of course "Eroica." But there are no Beethoven pieces I dislike... so tell me what you guys think.

Currenty listening to Symphony #7 on the $2 CD... it sounds like it was played through a Gameboy speaker and recorded with a Fisher-Price tape recorder and then converted to CD.... YIKES!

[Dennie]

Thanks for the responses, gents.

Larry, I'm interested primarily in CDs (or SACDs) and DVDs. I'm just beginning my music-collecting journey, but I do plan to get into LPs eventually.

As greg928gts mentioned, Symphony #9 is by far one of my most beloved classical pieces, and both versions I have on CD are TERRIBLE! I'm also looking for Symphony #5, #6, Piano Sonata #14 and of course "Eroica." But there are no Beethoven pieces I dislike... so tell me what you guys think.

Currenty listening to Symphony #7 on the $2 CD... it sounds like it was played through a Gameboy speaker and recorded with a Fisher-Price tape recorder and then converted to CD.... YIKES!

Well STOP THAT, before you hurt yourself!!! [:S]

Now, go do some "one-click" shopping before you do permanent damage and I guess you'd better get overnight delivery so we don't have to worry about you!!! []

Dennie (who has not even opened the door to classical music....yet)[*-)]

Dennie

[LarryC]

OK, thanks. Ninths are plentiful, but as an overwhelming work that defies a "perfect" interpretation, I don't have a current favorite. If you like seeing as well as hearing works, I know of one fine DVD with Seiji Ozawa conducting the Berlin PO in Carmina Burana (good perf of that, too, IMO) and the Ninth [EDIT]: (http://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-Burana-Beethoven-Symphony/dp/B0001Z65PS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1240286665&sr=8-3). There must have been a couple of decades between filmings, though, as the young Ozawa in Carmina is followed by a shockingly aged Ozawa for the 9th -- be prepared! Greg's recommendation should be good, and I assume he's heard and liked it.

I don't think you can go wrong with the MT Thomas Eroica DVD for the 3rd.

For the 5th, a long-standing favorite recording is by Carlos Kleiber and the Vienna Philharmonic: http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-5-Ludwig-van/dp/B000001GPX/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1240282085&sr=8-1.

For the 6th, Bruno Walter's ultra-congenial perf is very good, and it's combined with Beethoven's 4th, which I think you'd like: http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Pastorale-Ludwig-van/dp/B000002A7Q/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1240282269&sr=1-2. (Or, you can get a nice coupling of his 6th plus Schubert's 5th: http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-Schubert-Vienna-Philharmonic/dp/B000001GQL/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1240282269&sr=1-1.)

The 7th is a SUPER symphony! It's coupled with the Kleiber 5th (above), or you could get a potentially firey Bernstein recording w/the NY Phil that could be either very good or only so-so in sound and performance. http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Nos-2-7/dp/B00000K4J2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1240282553&sr=1-2.

Let us know what you think so far --

Larry

[WMcD]

Let me come from another vector.

You should consider one of the many collections which include all the symphonies. DG has several by Herbert Von Karjan (sp) and the Berliner. Sort of the home town guys.

Whatever you buy, this is somewhat cheaper to buy than hunting around to cherry pick.

More importantly though, this will allow a focus on the progress of Beethoven's works over his years.

It is my understanding that the first sounds a bit like his contemporaries and mentors. Then over the years he blooms with iincreasingly extravagant works.

Wm McD.

[Chris A]

Larry, I'm interested primarily in CDs (or SACDs) and DVDs. I'm just beginning my music-collecting journey, but I do plan to get into LPs eventually.

I would look to the major record labels (DG, Philips, London, ) and some newer DVD-A and SAC-D (5-channel) recordings (Silverline Classics, Naxos) I've got Jubs in a 5-channel setup with Cornwalls that really enhance the experience.

Here is a direct link to Amazon for a DVD-A of the 5th and 7th Symphonies that was done in the late 70s using high-quality multi-channel recording:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00067RF8C

I think the key for me is to concentrate on the musicianship rather than the medium (as long as we are talking digital). In that light, I would first look to CDs with great conductors and orchestras like Solti/London Symphony, even Bernstein/New York, etc. (with the possible exception of Karajan/Berlin--ask me about this...). I've got classical CDs that will get your attention and I find it hard to distinguish between CD vs. SACD vs. DVD-A on very good recordings. I don't do much of my vinyl anymore-I've got a several linear feet of Philips and DG pressings by famous conductors/orchestras-because of required maintenance, and the inherent pops and increased hiss at "hand volume".

It's hard to put a measurable value on the subtle differences that conductor interpretation makes, but for me it's like watching in B&W versus Technicolor when you hit great performances. My listening approach: once I've listened to the greats for a while then I turn to lesser-known labels that may have unique interpretations. (I believe this is congruent with advice my college music profs advocated many moons ago.)

Cheers,

Chris

[LarryC]

Chris, I agree completely re great conductors and orchestras, and that was the priority in my recommendations. My system is only 2-channel, which is why that's what I focused on. I put a secondary priority on lower-cost disks.

Your link is to a DVD-A issue of the Carlos Kleiber 5th and 7th recording that I recommended above. I don't know what difference it makes in the technology, but the recordings were made in 1975 or so.

Solti made an outstanding set of all the B. symphonies with the Chicago SO, which I have on LPs. He was meticulous in following Beethoven's original scoring in the 3rd and 5th, which many conductors are not (I can be specific if you want). However, he's often a little less exciting than the recommendations I made, IMO. Bernstein's recordings are variable as to interpretation, and his NYP recordings can be very thin-sounding. I'd buy on hearing them, rather than name alone.

I am NOT a von Karajan fan. Perfection, yes, but mostly a miss in excitement IMO.

I totally agree with your last paragraph.

Larry

[greg928gts]

Greg's recommendation should be good, and I assume he's heard and liked it.

I posted about it because Chesky is known for their quality recordings, which is what lured me in. Maybe it's just me, but I actually am not that impressed with the recording.

The 9th is my favorite Beethoven Symphony, although I'm not a big fan of the choral finale.

Greg

[LarryC]

Oh, OK, I see the conductor & orch now, and I don't think he's a first-rank conductor (IMO). I just looked on Amazon.com and was appalled at the lack of any selection of Ninths! What happened? A lot of von K (we know what I think of him!) and Ormandy of all people, and almost nothing else. It may be Amazon.com's fill-in-the-blank search method, but I dunno.

Anyway, to me this means you should get the Ozawa DVD double-hitter that I listed above, to see and hear two great works: the Ninth, and Carmina Burana. That should take care of that.

The choral finale is about the only thing big enough, varied enough, and dramatic enough, to fully balance the three powerful movements preceding it. I can't imagine any instrumental finale, even by Beethoven, that would or could have been a match for them. The vocal part is, however, somewhat detached emotionally (Beethoven vocal usually is), and maybe that's what you're reacting to.

Here's the Ozawa link: http://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-Burana-Beethoven-Symphony/dp/B0001Z65PS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1240286665&sr=8-3. Um, disregard the strategically-placed body parts ....

[BuyOtherSoundEquipment]

Hmm... this is giving me a lot to chew on... So you're saying that the "Carmina Burana" DVD with the nude people contains a performance of the Ninth?

Who is this Von K and what is his problem?

I know so little about classical recordings and conductors!

[Chris A]

Herbert von Karajan conducted the Berlin Philharmonic for 35 years, but had a notable musical approach. This is from his Wikipedia article:

"The American critic Harvey Sachs criticized the Karajan approach as follows:

Karajan seemed to have opted instead for an all-purpose, highly

refined, lacquered, calculatedly voluptuous sound that could be

applied, with the stylistic modifications he deemed appropriate, to

Bach and Puccini, Mozart and Mahler, Beethoven and Wagner, Schumann and

Stravinsky... many of his performances had a prefabricated, artificial

quality that those of

Toscanini

,

Furtwängler

,

and others never had... most of Karajan's records are exaggeratedly

polished, a sort of sonic counterpart to the films and photographs of

Leni Riefenstahl

."

Every time I listen to von Karajan, I hear an almost machine-like quality of performance that I believe was over-emphasized by the recording practices of DG recording engineers at that time--who opted for a very dark and distant sound, very unlike classical recording practices in this country.

It was also said that von Karajan largely conducted with his eyes shut. Having been a wind player in orchestras and wind symphonies, the thought of a conductor shutting his/her eyes while conducting told me a lot. The conductor loses much communication with his ensemble when his/her eyes are shut. The expressiveness that marks other great conductors, IMHO, is carried through not by the waving of arms but largely by eye contact that can generate far greater response from the musicians. That eye contact is key: the effect of shutting it off is very audible for me. When I listen to the Berlin Philharmonic of that period, I hear a lack of soul in the music.

Chris

[LarryC]

Hmm... this is giving me a lot to chew on... So you're saying that the "Carmina Burana" DVD with the nude people contains a performance of the Ninth?

Yep, it's got the Ninth. You're not going to beat the orchestra -- Berlin PO -- and I think (the unfortunately very old-looking) Ozawa does a great job. The only possibly disconcerting thing is the Japanese choruses in both works.

Read the comments on the Amazon.com page on this DVD.

I recommended this DVD & performance because (1) I am a BIG fan of watching a performance as well as hearing it, and (2) Amazon.com's cupboard of available CDs/DVDs was shockingly bare, for Amazon! As you know, Amazon now fills in what you're starting to write in its search line, and I may have chosen the wrong fill-in. There are, or have been, MANY 9ths.

Do you want me to try to dig up a CD of a different performance? I'll just be guessing for the most part, and would only beat the Ozawa by chance.

Very nice, insightful post and Wiki selection, Chris.

Larry

[TheEvan]

Interested in piano? Some of LVB's best music is to be found in his piano sonatas.

[greg928gts]

Interested in piano? Some of LVB's best music is to be found in his piano sonatas.

Yes, the Moonlight Sonata

I grew up in Sidney Maine on Messalonskee lake, just a 1/2 mile from the New England Music Camp, where top notch music teachers from around the world would vacation and teach young musicians during a summer camp program. The camp has at least a hundred little cabins that are just big enough to fit an upright piano and a couple of chairs, and I used to sneak over there all the time when camp was not in session and pretend I was playing the pianos (this was when I was very young). The caretakers of the property, who lived there year-round, were old Mainer grandparent types who would occassionally catch me in one of the cabins, and would bring me back to their home where they would feed me cookies and milk, then send me on my way back home.

I was able to attend the camp for a reduced fee because I lived in Sidney, and I had the opportunity to go there for two years at the age of 11 and 12. I had been taking piano lessons since I was 7, so I already had a background in music (which was necessary to even get in to the camp). I would take my little aluminum boat over to the camp everyday for those two summers and I received some good instruction.

The highlight of my time there was when I played at a recital in the great hall one Wednesday evening to a packed house of students and staff. I was 12 years old, dressed in a grey tux that my mom rented for me, and I played the entirre Moonlight Sonata with no sheet music in front of me. (I never learned to read music, I played by ear and by doing some reading initially) They kept pushing me back out on the stage to take a bow to the standing ovation. I still remember it. The scary thing is, that even at that age I think I had an understanding of the power and emotion that the music held.

Soon after that I lost interest as many young people do with things. I wish that someone had made me sit down to listen to some Brubeck or Evans or even Gershwin. My teacher was classical only. She indulged a couple of Joplin tunes, but then it was back to Bach.

I can't play a lick on the keyboards now, but would love to pick it up again.

Greg

[pauln]

I try to avoid reading any of my records now that want to tell me too much about the music... it upsets my delusions!

Beethoven's 3rd is fantastic. My copy had the story on the back which I eventually got around to reading and then hated that I had done so. I was not surprized to read that his 1st and 2nd did not "make the charts", but that the 3rd really got a lot of attention. I was dismayed to read that it was originally meant as a dedication to Napolean, then retracted.

Listening, I had been loving the deep dark funeral durge sounding movement with the basses prominent, and then when it transitions into a fuguey direction it just gets magnificent, buidling in beauty and majesty; and because it reminds me of Bach, I had assumed that Beethoven was paying homage to Bach with that - the deep mourning of losing Bach, but the music remaining forever...

I still hear and imagine Bach when I play it, and I don't read the backs of classical albums anymore...