khorn#1 Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 In the last two weeks I have had the pleasure of listening to Greg Roberts v-trac horn setup with the BMS 4592 mid driver, beyma ct25 tweeter, and Alk universal crossovers. First let me tell everyone that Greg is a first class gentleman that has a great passion for the Klipsch heritage line of speakers. He has as we all know provided first class upgrades to the Klipsch Heritage line of speakers for some time and we have all admired his work down through the years. He has been a credit to this forum like so many have in taking Paul Klipsch great designs to greater musical heights and enjoyment. Forgive me for sounding corny and maybe overbearing but, I will tell you that since I had my first encounter with a friends pair of Heresys back in 1975 on a cheap kenwood receiver I have not considered any other line of speakers other than the klipsch heritage line. Can you feel the passion. Anyway, on with the review. A little background on what setup I have. I have 2004 khorns with Alk trachorns ( k55 driver), crites tweeter, and Alk es networks. I have Mcintosh 501 monoblock amps running with Mcintosh c-46 preamp with a modified Denon 2900 cd - dvd player connected to a ps audio dac III with Rick Cullen stage 4 mod ( sweet for the money) and 2 Richard Grey 400 pro power centers. Upon receiving Gregs v-tracs, I removed my tophat section including the es networks and set the v-trac set up right in place. Greg did a great job in laying everything out so as for as the khorns go, you just set the v-tracs right in place on top of the bass bins, hook up your amp source and your ready to go. With the bass bins tucked in the corners, I was able to toe the v-tracs in to my sweet sitting spot and begin the evaluation. I first listened to a selection from the Mapleshade collection ( Austin Backalley Blue - Sweetman with his South Side Groove Kings) very well recorded as well as all the Mapleshade recordings are that I have listened to. Let me tell you, I have had trachorns for about two years, they were a big step up from the stock mid horns. The v-trac takes the performance of the khorn to even another higher level for sure. Listening to this first cd selection which I am very familar with I quickly noticed a larger more dynamic sound from these khorns. I thought okay, this recording always has sounded great even with stock khorns as well as the trachorns but, I thought Greg might have come up with something special here with these v-tracs. Because of work and other things that came up, it was several days before I was able to sit down and really put these to the test. This time I was able to take my time with these v-tracs, listening to many types of music from hard rock, blues,jazz and even a little classical. I listened for about 6 hours mostly at high volumns which is the way I like to listen ( 100 - 108 db ) according to my sound level meter. Whatever I played, which were all selections I was very familar with, the sound was incredible. I have never heard khorns sound like this and I have heard khorns at different venue's down through the last 30 or so years. The sound with the v-tracs is very smooth and clear at all sound levels. Im not an expert by no means but these seem to bring out an upper mid bass that was missing most of the time before. The sound is larger, more open, never and I mean never constricted at any level I took it to. My 15 year old son who at times likes to sit in and listen from time to time with me when I play rock music even agreed that he had never heard these khorns sound this good. I know others here have heard larger 2 inch type mid horns with khorns but this was the first time I had heard anything but the stock 400 or trachorn which is no slouch by any means. I realize and Greg has said also, the BMS 4592 mid driver is a first class driver and is not cheap in price but mated with these v-tracs, it really is something to hear. It really puts the khorn in another class. I would place it right up there with Al's es networks as far as upgrades go. I did not have the chance to try the es networks with these v-tracs but I can imagine it will be magical. I listened several more times to these before I had to pack them up for the next person on the demo tour, Craig Otsby, hope I spelled your last name right Craig. They are going to be on display at an audio show in Michigan the first week of May ( Audio Karma Fest I think ). If your in that area, you need to hear these or get in line possibly on Greg's demo. I want to thank Greg for allowing me as well as others on this forum to have the chance to hear his v-trac's in our on homes. Greg really has a passion for the klipsch heritage line and has hit a home run with these mid horns. I have talked with Greg several times while I had these and I can tell you, with him its not about making a dollar on these, its about taking a great speaker design that has been strong for over 60 years and really improving the overall voicing of this audio speaker. Again, with the cost of the BMS driver, its not a cheap upgrade but after hearing this combo I am telling you, its worth it. I have some pics which I will post later, my wife took the camera to work for some function so the pics are with her on the cameras sd card. Thanks for reading, Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkalsi Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 As expected :-) - I'm really looking forward to these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I too am looking forward to hearing these!!! Randy just one question, are you going to purchase a pair? Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khorn#1 Posted April 24, 2009 Author Share Posted April 24, 2009 Jay, Yes, my order has been placed and my complete trachorns with drivers and crites tweeter are for sale over on the garage site. I really dont have the funds and my wife is not very happy because she is tired of me saying I'm through with upgrades and equipment purchasing and here I go again but, I will tell you Jay, this v-trac horn and BMS driver is very very sweet. Its worth gettin in to a little savings to purchase these. Thanks, Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I'm through with upgrades and equipment purchasing Famous last words![] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Thanks for the review. I can't wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Thank you for the great write-up Randy. Your words about me are too kind, my wife says I'm getting a big head. All info about the V-Trac horn is available here www.dcchomes.com/Vtrac.html To me, the most interesting part of what Randy said was these seem to bring out an upper mid bass that was missing most of the time before This is one thing that surprised me about the V-Trac and the 2" driver format, the increase in clarity in the mid-bass frequencies and the deeper voicing of the midrange in general. I expected a warmer sound, but the frequencies I'm referring to seem to be below the crossover point of the mid horn. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Jay, Yes, my order has been placed and my complete trachorns with drivers and crites tweeter are for sale over on the garage site. I really dont have the funds and my wife is not very happy because she is tired of me saying I'm through with upgrades and equipment purchasing and here I go again but, I will tell you Jay, this v-trac horn and BMS driver is very very sweet. Its worth gettin in to a little savings to purchase these. Thanks, Randy Randy that's exactly what i was afraid of!!! LOL!!! I can't wait.Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Greg, Randy did either of you notice a increase in detail at low levels, or at any levels? Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khorn#1 Posted April 26, 2009 Author Share Posted April 26, 2009 Jay, With the v-tracs there was an overall better voicing of the khorn. Like I said in the review, the mid bass was much improved on most selections I listened to. One thing I will add, my khorns have the closed backs on them. I did this mod to my khorns to help with the toe in or sweet spot if you will. Enclosing the backs allowed me to toe them out into the room and not worry about having them sealed completely into the corners.They were still in the corners of course but several inches from being sealed into the corners. It work for me as well as a few others that have done this mod to their khorns or maybe I thought it did. I will tell you that with my top hats completely removed and the v-trac demos just sitting on top of the bass bins, it did allow me to completely push the bass bins into the corners and toe in or out the v-trac demos however I wanted and I did notice in this setup, the lower bass did seem to improve so I really cant say if the v-trac affected the lower voicing of the bass bin or it improved because I had the bass bins even with the enclosed backs completely sealed into the corners. It goes back to the debate if the enclosed backs really work or not in terms of being able to toe them out without the complete seal in the corners or maybe the inclosed backs are a waist of time. Believe me it has got me to thinking even to the point of I am getting gregs horns with the beyma's and making an open baffle that just sits on top of my bass bins along with the es networks and leaving my bass bins with enclosed backs completely sealed into the corners. It wont be a pretty look compared to the stock khorn look but I know what I heard with Greg's demo and I dont want to change that setup even at the expense of the clean look of a complete tophat installed correctly with grill,side and top wood panels. To sum it all up, this v-trac horn setup with the BMS 4592 mid driver and Beyma st25 tweeter with the bass bis sealed into the corners sounded like no other set of khorns I have heard and I have heard a few good khorn setups over the years. Cant wait to hear this setup with my Alk es networks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 The Demo program is going to provide quite a few varied setups. In my case, I already have the ALK universal network and the CT 125. I also have false corners so I can toe in my Khorns. I look forward to the comparisson with my setup. I better start saving my pennies. I inquired with Assistance Audio about the BMS 4592ND-MID and got the following response: "The mid only are not up yet because they were originally manufactured for speech only paging systems for communications companies. We anticipated that music people would be using only full range. Cost is $468.75. I have them in 8 or 16 ohms, and I also have them in 1.4". This is going to be one expensive upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Jay, With the v-tracs there was an overall better voicing of the khorn. Like I said in the review, the mid bass was much improved on most selections I listened to. One thing I will add, my khorns have the closed backs on them. I did this mod to my khorns to help with the toe in or sweet spot if you will. Enclosing the backs allowed me to toe them out into the room and not worry about having them sealed completely into the corners.They were still in the corners of course but several inches from being sealed into the corners. It work for me as well as a few others that have done this mod to their khorns or maybe I thought it did. I will tell you that with my top hats completely removed and the v-trac demos just sitting on top of the bass bins, it did allow me to completely push the bass bins into the corners and toe in or out the v-trac demos however I wanted and I did notice in this setup, the lower bass did seem to improve so I really cant say if the v-trac affected the lower voicing of the bass bin or it improved because I had the bass bins even with the enclosed backs completely sealed into the corners. It goes back to the debate if the enclosed backs really work or not in terms of being able to toe them out without the complete seal in the corners or maybe the inclosed backs are a waist of time. Believe me it has got me to thinking even to the point of I am getting gregs horns with the beyma's and making an open baffle that just sits on top of my bass bins along with the es networks and leaving my bass bins with enclosed backs completely sealed into the corners. It wont be a pretty look compared to the stock khorn look but I know what I heard with Greg's demo and I dont want to change that setup even at the expense of the clean look of a complete tophat installed correctly with grill,side and top wood panels. To sum it all up, this v-trac horn setup with the BMS 4592 mid driver and Beyma st25 tweeter with the bass bis sealed into the corners sounded like no other set of khorns I have heard and I have heard a few good khorn setups over the years. Cant wait to hear this setup with my Alk es networks. Randy, Thanks for the update it is interesting what you say about toeing and sealing the backs. I have mime completely into the conners with a very good seal, but I also have my tophats toed in toward my listening position. I did this some time ago and found it to be better for my setup, my room is actually too small for khorns for the best response from this speaker: but I will never get rid of them. I just took the wing nuts out and turned the tophats in a bit, much better all the around, and the bass is just fine.Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 "The mid only are not up yet because they were originally manufactured for speech only paging systems for communications companies. We anticipated that music people would be using only full range. Cost is $468.75. I have them in 8 or 16 ohms, and I also have them in 1.4". I don't know what that means "The mid only are not up yet". They are available, I've purchased five in the last month and Larry just bought a pair from Assistnace Audio. Make sure you're asking for the correct driver model, it's easy to get mixed up with one number off or something like that. Yes it's expensive, but so are a lot of nice things. My Khorns will walk all over a new pair from Klipsch and do it for a lot less money. Don't underestimate the difference with a 2" mid driver/horn setup, it's really something special. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 I don't know what that means "The mid only are not up yet". They are available, I've purchased five in the last month and Larry just bought a pair from Assistnace Audio. Make sure you're asking for the correct driver model, it's easy to get mixed up with one number off or something like that. Yes it's expensive, but so are a lot of nice things. My Khorns will walk all over a new pair from Klipsch and do it for a lot less money. Don't underestimate the difference with a 2" mid driver/horn setup, it's really something special. Greg Greg: My apologies. I should have clarified the direct quote. They were responding to a question as to why the MID model was not featured in their web site. That led me to write them and ask about the MID only model. The response included a reason as to why the MID was not up yet. I thought it interesting that this particular driver was designed for commercial PA applications. I am sure your setup is very special. So much so, that I was already gathering information on how to get it done for me. I'm sure I will love your demo unit. The neat thing is that I will also get to hear the Beyma's as compared to my Crites CT-125's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 I don't know what that means "The mid only are not up yet". They are available, I've purchased five in the last month and Larry just bought a pair from Assistnace Audio. Make sure you're asking for the correct driver model, it's easy to get mixed up with one number off or something like that. Yes it's expensive, but so are a lot of nice things. My Khorns will walk all over a new pair from Klipsch and do it for a lot less money. Don't underestimate the difference with a 2" mid driver/horn setup, it's really something special. Greg Greg: My apologies. I should have clarified the direct quote. They were responding to a question as to why the MID model was not featured in their web site. That led me to write them and ask about the MID only model. The response included a reason as to why the MID was not up yet. I thought it interesting that this particular driver was designed for commercial PA applications. I am sure your setup is very special. So much so, that I was already gathering information on how to get it done for me. I'm sure I will love your demo unit. The neat thing is that I will also get to hear the Beyma's as compared to my Crites CT-125's. Oh I see, not up on the website yet. I don't like having only one supplier for the BMS drivers. I'm keeping my eyes open for another. I think all 2" drivers are designed with PA systems in mind. The market for 2" compression drivers is 99% for PA. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Randy, Nice review! The V-trac BMS combo is killer! I'm curious as to if you adjusted the mid driver settings or if you ran them as delivered at 0-2 - 9.5db? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 I'm documenting all the positive comments about the V-Trac horn at this webpage www.dcchomes.com/Vtrac4.html Craig has the honor so far of being the most succinct. All negative comments about the V-Trac horns are translated into Russian and placed in the Russian section of this forum. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Greg: Did you look into any other 2" drivers? Just curious as to what, if any, other options we will have for a 2" driver. BMS is very proud of their product. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Greg: Did you look into any other 2" drivers? Just curious as to what, if any, other options we will have for a 2" driver. BMS is very proud of their product. No I didn't. Dean mentioned the Community M200 as a possibility. I think there are very few 2" drivers that can be crossed as low as 400Hz and also extend to 6Khz. I guess this is the next step, to try the Community and maybe another. Uggh. Does it ever end? Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Greg: It never ends. I thought I was done when I upgraded my crossovers and tweeters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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