v-trac demo impressions

[khorn#1]

Craig,

I ran them as delivered, because of work and other things, I did not really have time to try any other taps nor did I have the time to hook up my Alks es networks and see how they sounded. It was a tad bright but in a good way, more effecient driver and the universal networks are to blame for that. I am use to the es networks which at low and medium levels are not very in your face so to speak. They shine at higher volumn levels which when I am am doing some serious listening is where I run them. Can't wait to hear Greg's horn with the BMS driver hooked up to the dialed in es networks.

Craig, even though I did not have or take the time to try other tap settings, Greg's horn with this BMS driver is special. I think even after tinkering a bit you have found this out. Good luck with your booth or setup at the AK fest and we all look forward to your report on how things went.

Randy

[NOSValves]

Randy,

it's too bad work kept you from tinkering. I stayed up untill 2 am the first night getting the combo close... I'm sure things are different when using the Khorn base bin compared to my setup with Las bin's. I think if you fine tuned the setup your impression would of been even better if that is possible.

I've found as delivered that the mid is way to hot with the LS bins.... the kicker is if you lower it to what sounds (and measures) right in relation to the Las Bass bins then the Beyma is to hot. So I plugged in my APT-200 baby cheek tweeter and really hit gold. The biggest difference I hear is not when listening nearfeild as I normally do but when you step back away from the system this setup really desperses across the room way better then with the K-55.... It also holds up to stunning levels of SLP without a hint of what had become what I though was normal horn blare.

Another thing I did when first setting this up is leave one trachorn/K55 setup and compared the two mid setup by putting my ear in the horn while playing low level music... The difference is stunning... The K-55 is literally annoying using it like a headphone while the BMS is clear and clean.

This is indeed impressive. The true test for me is when I switch back to the trachorn/K-55 setup. That will tell it all.

This has me wondering about better 1" driver options for my trachorns... Something to play with! I'd bet 90% of the improvement is that BMS driver.

I know Alk is going to hate to read this next comment but I have to be honest... I prefer the ALK Jr./Super AA over the ALK universal crossover by a huge margin. Some of this could be related to my Super AA's having $600 worth of parts in them or the design just fits my taste better. The Bass isn't even close with the universal at least with the LS bins. The mids and HF seem cleaner and more natural with the Supper AA.

This setup is very natural and very musical as I have it setup now.

[jcmusic]

Hey Craig,

Coming from you that is very interesting, i do like what i am reading however. I guess i will have to wait for amother couple reviews from khorn owners.

Jay

[greg928gts]

it's too bad work kept you from tinkering. I stayed up untill 2 am the first night getting the combo close... I'm sure things are different when using the Khorn base bin compared to my setup with Las bin's. I think if you fine tuned the setup your impression would of been even better if that is possible.

I agree. I'm going to have to encourage people using the demo to try different tap settings.

I've found as delivered that the mid is way to hot with the LS bins.... the kicker is if you lower it to what sounds (and measures) right in relation to the Las Bass bins then the Beyma is to hot. So I plugged in my APT-200 baby cheek tweeter and really hit gold. The biggest difference I hear is not when listening nearfeild as I normally do but when you step back away from the system this setup really desperses across the room way better then with the K-55.... It also holds up to stunning levels of SLP without a hint of what had become what I though was normal horn blare.

This makes a lot of sense. I would guess that LS bass bins not in corners will be about 3db lower than my Khorn bass bins in my living room made for Khorns. So your tap setting of -13.6 is 4db lower than I have it set at in my living room. If the bass bins are down 3db and the mid down 4 db, the tweets are going to be a little hot. I sent you information on what resistors would be needed to attenuate the tweeters by 3db if you want to try the Beyma's again.

Another thing I did when first setting this up is leave one trachorn/K55 setup and compared the two mid setup by putting my ear in the horn while playing low level music... The difference is stunning... The K-55 is literally annoying using it like a headphone while the BMS is clear and clean.

This is so true. The difference between the K69 or K55 and the BMS4592 up close is amazing. The BMS actually sounds nice, like a cone midrange almost.

This has me wondering about better 1" driver options for my trachorns... Something to play with! I'd bet 90% of the improvement is that BMS driver.

This is true for people with ALK Trachorns. But for those with K400's, it's equally the horn and the driver that are making the difference. All you have to do is talk through a K400 and then talk through a wooden tractrix horn, and you wouldn't believe the difference. I'm going to put a video up on my website some day, of me talking through each horn.

Greg

[michael hurd]

"This is true for people with ALK Trachorns. But for those with K400's,
it's equally the horn and the driver that are making the
difference. All you have to do is talk through a K400 and then talk
through a wooden tractrix horn, and you wouldn't believe the
difference. I'm going to put a video up on my website some day, of me
talking through each horn. "

Now add a mass equal to the weight of the K-55 around the throat, and bolt it to a big piece of plywood, you will find that the resonances are well damped. If it's not attached to a baffle yes, it will tend to ring.

[greg928gts]

"This is true for people with ALK Trachorns. But for those with K400's, it's equally the horn and the driver that are making the difference. All you have to do is talk through a K400 and then talk through a wooden tractrix horn, and you wouldn't believe the difference. I'm going to put a video up on my website some day, of me talking through each horn. "

Now add a mass equal to the weight of the K-55 around the throat, and bolt it to a big piece of plywood, you will find that the resonances are well damped. If it's not attached to a baffle yes, it will tend to ring.

I wasn't referring to the ringing, but I do have to hold the metal horn to keep it from ringing during my demonstration.

What is really the difference, is the sound between the smaller-throat, more constricted, smaller-mouthed K400 versus the V-trac with the 2" throat, tractrix curve, and bigger mouth. The tonal difference between the two is amazing, and ear-opening, to say the least.

I keep both horns near the entry of my shop, and whenever someone comes over to visit, I subject them to the demonstration. "Which one sounds more like a human voice?", I'll say through each of the horns.

Greg

[BEC]

Greg,

Just make sure you have your mouth sealed really well to the horn. You know...like a compression driver.

Bob

[Blvdre]

...and make sure you speak from your diaphragm.

[greg928gts]

Greg,

Just make sure you have your mouth sealed really well to the horn. You know...like a compression driver.

Bob

Yeah, you can really hear when you're loading the horn that way. My voice is deep enough that it overloads the horn. I've spent some time doing this and it's interesting to hear the difference it makes when you change the pitch of your voice, or just pull your mouth a little bit away from the end of the horn.

Both horns sound their worst with my mouth sealed to the horn. Especially when I'm screaming for someone to "PULL IT OFF - PULL IT OFF"!!!

Greg

[djk]

"I keep both horns near the entry of my shop, and whenever someone comes over to visit, I subject them to the demonstration. "Which one sounds more like a human voice?", I'll say through each of the horns. "

I do that test too.

The K400/401 has to be the worst sounding horn I have ever heard in that test. The funny thing was that I could make them sound good as part of a system when crossed at 800hz/24dB and 4Khz on top. Cutting off the 5/8" throat and installing a 2" JBL adaptor really helped too.

[greg928gts]

"I keep both horns near the entry of my shop, and whenever someone comes over to visit, I subject them to the demonstration. "Which one sounds more like a human voice?", I'll say through each of the horns. "

I do that test too.

The K400/401 has to be the worst sounding horn I have ever heard in that test. The funny thing was that I could make them sound good as part of a system when crossed at 800hz/24dB and 4Khz on top. Cutting off the 5/8" throat and installing a 2" JBL adaptor really helped too.

Interesting. When I pull my mouth away from the horn throat a bit, the horn starts to sound better. That's probably because the horn is not being loaded by the lower frequencies of my voice, sort of like crossing it over higher, as in your 800hz test.

So that's cool, you cut the throat off the horn until you had a 2" throat and put an adapter on it with a 2" driver? I bet that worked pretty well.

Greg

[mark1101]

I don't know anything about these horns since I haven't tried them.....but I noticed Craig's comment about ALK Jr. / Super AA networks. I have to agree. I worked with DeanG years ago swapping out different network designs in my lascalas...spending ridiculous $$ on different caps and coils......now I am just talking lascalas right now.......and I ended up with the ALK Jrs with a certain combo of caps and coils. Of particular concern was the bass output. That network gave me the most and we all know lascalas don't need to be cheated on bass help.

Now.....in my Khorns the exact same networks were not preferred strangely enough. Nothing sounded even close to the ESNs for me. The ALK univrsals sounded better than the Jrs. and I had a pair of ALK gentle slopers and those sounded better than the universals. So I eventually tried ESNs and those were the best for me in my Ks.

[Deang]

I think everyone should have at least six or seven different networks. A couple from Bob, a couple from Al, and a few from me.

[djk]

"Interesting. When I pull my mouth away from the horn throat a bit, the horn starts to sound better. That's probably because the horn is not being loaded by the lower frequencies of my voice, sort of like crossing it over higher, as in your 800hz test. "

Yes, I think so. Edgar used an air-gap with a flow restrictor on many of his tractrix horns to clean up the low end sound. TAD used to offer a horn with a damped 1/4W stub to cancel a low end problem.

"So that's cool, you cut the throat off the horn until you had a 2" throat and put an adapter on it with a 2" driver? I bet that worked pretty well. "

Yes, I cut off a K400 where the height was equal to a JBL 2328 adaptor and filled in and smoothed the horizontal dimension to match the horn entry (only required about 0.060 of filler). It totally changed the sound of the horn. The original intent was to use JBL drivers, but later it was found that the Community M200 had better sound (but required a 4Khz tweeter crossover).

[greg928gts]

the Community M200 had better sound (but required a 4Khz tweeter crossover).

Good information. I noticed on the curve that the M200 pooped out at a lower frequency, and for this reason I didn't think it would work well with my V-Trac setup. I may try one someday for the heck of it though.

Greg

[jcmusic]

Greg,

Where are we on the demo units?

Jay

[greg928gts]

Greg,

Where are we on the demo units?

Jay

I keep the webpage updated, so you can see what's happening with the demo units. www.dcchomes.com/Vtrac3.html

I'm waiting for some resistors to show up and I'm going to install them so they can be hooked to the tweeters, or not. This will be a way to attenuate the tweeters down 3db if the user chooses to. I was listening to them in my shop and Craig was right, they are bit hot the way they are set up. They don't sound that hot in my living room.

Greg

[jcmusic]

Greg,

I read that, but it is dated the 28th of last month.

jay

[greg928gts]

Greg,

I read that, but it is dated the 28th of last month.

jay

LOL. Nothing has changed since then!

I just got the resistors and I'm wiring them up today. I should be shipping the demo units tomorrow with crossed fingers. Rich is getting them next, then he'll send them to you in a couple of weeks.

Greg

[khorn#1]

Everyone,

I have had several weeks of listening with Gregs v-trac horn, BMS driver and es networks. I have made several adjustments with squaker tap settings as well as tweeter attenuation. I even went from 8 ohm taps to 4 ohm taps on my Mcintosh 501's which was an improvement in this setup.

I think I have got them dialed in and the BMS drivers broke in. I had a musician friend of mine over last weekend to hear the new horns and drivers. He is a drummer and has been to my home over the years to hear my system from stock khorns to trachorns with alk es networks and now to Gregs horn with the two inch BMS drivers. I made sure to have everything warmed up before he arrived.

We listened to a few songs of his choosing. After about three songs he got up and walked over to the horns and drivers and looked them over and looked at me and said what in the hell are these. I filled him in on what I had done and told him that the Klipsch forum strikes again in a good way of course.

We listened to various music selections well into the early morning. He said that this upgrade made more positive difference than any other time he had heard my system. He called me the next day and went on and on about how he heard things in songs he had not heard before. Like I said he is a drummer, he said he had not heard overall drums sound like that on a home system.

These 2 inch v-trac horns with these BMS drivers are something special. Thanks again to Greg for all his work on this upgrade.