jcmusic Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Mike, That is exactly correct, I was using the 16 ohm version while Greg had the 8 ohm version. We discovered that my settings and his were a 3db difference. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 So what tap settings were you using on the squawker? I have the 16 ohm versions as well. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Well Mike I statrted at the same settings I used with my original horns, which was 3-0. Then I moved the settings until I got it to match my room correctly, and ended up at 1-0. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I almost forgot the tweeter setting was right in the middle of the pad or -5db. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I just got back from my business trip and found a very large box with "V-TRAC" on the side! Nice treat for a rainy afternoon. Thanks Jay, the crate made it intact. I am now listening to the V-Trac Demo horns. There is, however, some issue with one of the crossovers whereby I am not able to get sound from one set of V-trac mid range and it's Beyma. I already contacted Greg about that. Fortunately I already have the ALK, so was able to use one of my crossovers to "replace" the non-working crossover. I figured I would put up some initial impressions after about 3 hours of listening. First, the gear. I am powering my Khorns with Parasound HALO amps, the processor is an Integra DHC 9.9 and source is my HTPC sending bit perfect lossless .flac files to the processor. (Sorry guys, not a tube in the house.) My room is set up as a 7.1 Home Theater as well as 2 ch. listening. BTW, the Integra uses Audyssey to compensate for room boundary problems. Room is 20' W x 27' L x 9.5' H. My current Khorns have the ALK universal crossovers with the Crites CT-125 tweeters. I was also looking forward to hearing the Beyma tweeters. As an aside, for the time being I prefer the CT-125 sound....could just be that it is what I am used to. If you are interested in the room, you can see pictures here: http://www.prontoweb.com/klipsch_HT.htm On to the V-Tracs. (Those BMS drivers a BIG! ) My first audition impression found the differences to be most noticeable in vocals. Compared to my stock mid range setup, the V-trac has such a smooth, more defined sound. It took me a while to realize the difference because I found it to be a subtle difference that took me a while to discern. I went back to the stock mid range setup after about an hour of listening and then it became evident. My mid range sounded a bit garbled, not as clearly defined as the V-Trac. I also have found some instruments to sound more realistic, such as the piano, in a way that made the speakers almost 'disappear'. These horns and driver are very, very nice! In my case, they complete the not-so-stock Khorns. I now know what I have been missing in the mid range. Frankly I lack the vocabulary to articulate the QUALITY difference in the mid-range. One thing is for sure, voices are so much better with these horns. As far as imaging and soundstage, I find them to be excellent. I hesitate to say they are better than my stock setup, but the mid range quality difference makes it sound more realistic. Greg, very nice work! I will enjoy these for the next week or so and reluctantly pass them on. Jay sent them to me with the mid attenuation at 12.5dB. (1-0) on the ALK's. I played with the settings and ended up where my current setup was. 6.7dB attenuation (3-0) on the ALK. Since I have a La Scala center also with an ALK and CT-125, I can quickly make a rough comparison between the mid ranges of the stock K55 and horn and the V-Trac by switching to Mono. When I do that, the quality difference is very evident. The V-trac vocals have a silky smooth quality. The stock horn sounds slightly garbled in comparison. It also sounds like someone is singing through a megaphone at a distance vs. someone singing right in front of me. Very nice indeed. Hopefully more to follow as I listen for a few more days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Well Mike I statrted at the same settings I used with my original horns, which was 3-0. Then I moved the settings until I got it to match my room correctly, and ended up at 1-0. Jay Jay, that's interesting. I started where you had set them and eventually ended up where my Khorns normally are at 3-0. Just goes to show you how much room acoustics affects what we hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Well Mike I statrted at the same settings I used with my original horns, which was 3-0. Then I moved the settings until I got it to match my room correctly, and ended up at 1-0. Jay Jay, that's interesting. I started where you had set them and eventually ended up where my Khorns normally are at 3-0. Just goes to show you how much room acoustics affects what we hear. Not only room acoustics, but what we are listening to for music, at what volume level, and how we like the balance of sound in our own systems. There are times when I adjust the midrange more forward in my system and enjoy it immensely with the 2" throat format; where with the 11/16" throat stock format I never liked the midrange forward. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Rudy that's really interesting!!! When i got them from Rich they were set at 1-0, and my original setup was at 3-0 where you like it. LOL!!!! Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Rudy that's really interesting!!! When i got them from Rich they were set at 1-0, and my original setup was at 3-0 where you like it. LOL!!!! Jay Technically, it's 0-1 and 0-3. The BMS drivers need to be attenuated more than the K55, they must be more efficient. So the settings you had with the K55 are not relevant to what you are listening to with the BMS drivers. You guys seem to be interested in the relationship between the settings you have with your stock mids, and what you've got them set to with the Demo Units. They are totally different drivers that need to be balanced differently. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Rudy that's really interesting!!! When i got them from Rich they were set at 1-0, and my original setup was at 3-0 where you like it. LOL!!!! Jay Technically, it's 0-1 and 0-3. The BMS drivers need to be attenuated more than the K55, they must be more efficient. So the settings you had with the K55 are not relevant to what you are listening to with the BMS drivers. You guys seem to be interested in the relationship between the settings you have with your stock mids, and what you've got them set to with the Demo Units. They are totally different drivers that need to be balanced differently. Greg Greg I couldn't agree with you more, the BMS drivers are for sure more efficent. What I found interesting was that Rudy ended up at 0-3 which is where my original drivers are set at. I had to attenuate the BMS drivers down to 0-1 for my room, the 0-3 setting was way too much.Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Greg I couldn't agree with you more, the BMS drivers are for sure more efficent. What I found interesting was that Rudy ended up at 0-3 which is where my original drivers are set at. I had to attenuate the BMS drivers down to 0-1 for my room, the 0-3 setting was way too much. Jay Yes it is interesting. 0-3 is very midrange-forward with the demo units. Just goes to show that not everyone hears the same or is wanting the same sound. In some ways I envy Rudy. I've had the V-Tracs set even louder than that and the sound is amazing. I've commented on this before, that there's something really nice about letting the mid go wide open - not attenuated. It's not balanced with the bass bins, but just listening to the mids themselves without being "held back" by the autotransformer is something special. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 just listening to the mids themselves without being "held back" by the autotransformer is something special. You're a bit over my head in this area...but modifying the subject a little bit... this makes me wonder if all these tube amps with transformers on them are also "holding back" the sound a bit? I had that little baby OTL amp and felt it was the sweetest sounding amp I've heard, but it's lowely little 1 1/2 watts/stereo and 4 watts/bridged simply were not enough for me. The biggest difference between it and the other tube amps I tried was, it was an OTL. Just makes me wonder if there is more merit than we discuss around here about getting more sonic purity? (avoiding things like the transformers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Ok, typing while I enjoy my second listening session. First some comments on the issues brought up concerning mid attenuation settings. In my case, I have been listening at very moderate levels so as not to disturb the rest of the family. With other than reference volume levels, my Audyssey system will boost bass somewhat in order to make up for the perceived bass loss at lower volumes (one of those human hearing things). That alone will allow me to run the mids hotter and have then sound 'normal'. Having said that, I had a long discussion with Greg about these settings. This morning I decided to try the extremes so that I could really hear the ends of the spectrum. Wow, at -3.8 dB which was one end I tried, those are HOT! In my experimentation I ended up going back and forth between -6.7 and -12.5. I have started to settle where Jay left them, at -12.5 after all. I used Cheski's Ultimate Demonstration Disk to use well recorded tracks during my tests. Of course, these settings are all subjective. I also have quite a bit of upper range absorbtion in the room, so I don't get a lot of reflected sound as I would otherwise get. I would expect this would reduce the perceived differences in settings. I really like Greg's setup the more I listen to it. One problem I found, is that my Center La Scala cannot accept this huge horn.....won't fit. That is a major problem for me in a Home Theater application. Timbre matching the front three speakers is important to me. Now, back to more critical listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Rudy I am glad to hear that you are enjoying them, as for the settings that will depend on who is listening and how they like to hear their music. Rudy for the most part I did all of my listening test from 85-95db, that is where I normally listen at. There were a couple of times when I bumped it up to a little over 100db but less than 105db. BTW Rudy where do you have the tweeters set at? Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Rudy I am glad to hear that you are enjoying them, as for the settings that will depend on who is listening and how they like to hear their music. Rudy for the most part I did all of my listening test from 85-95db, that is where I normally listen at. There were a couple of times when I bumped it up to a little over 100db but less than 105db. BTW Rudy where do you have the tweeters set at? Jay Jay: I ended up with the tweeters just where you left them. That is, the middle setting in the attenuators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 The Fc260 horn will fit in the La Scala, it takes some modifications though. The tweeter has to go on top or in the bass bin. Or possibly use the BMS coax driver. I haven't tested it yet so I can't comment on how it sounds. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 just listening to the mids themselves without being "held back" by the autotransformer is something special. You're a bit over my head in this area...but modifying the subject a little bit... this makes me wonder if all these tube amps with transformers on them are also "holding back" the sound a bit? I had that little baby OTL amp and felt it was the sweetest sounding amp I've heard, but it's lowely little 1 1/2 watts/stereo and 4 watts/bridged simply were not enough for me. The biggest difference between it and the other tube amps I tried was, it was an OTL. Just makes me wonder if there is more merit than we discuss around here about getting more sonic purity? (avoiding things like the transformers) The guy I sold the Rosewood La Scalas www.dcchomes.com/LaScala.html to over in the UK said he's going all class T amps and keeping the whole stream digital from source to speaker so he can avoid transformers. He like the T's better than tubes. He's going to build a four channel digital amplifier with digital active crossover built in to use on the LS's. My SET's are the sweetest sounding amps too, and I still listen to them regularly. But I keep a few more watts hanging around when I want to really get things excited. I still need a really nice pair of PP amps that work in class A up to 30 watts or so - something new, not vintage. I've got enough vintage stuff around here. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Ok guys I just finished listening to my original setup for the first time since Greg's demo V-Tracs were here a week ago, and to put it simply. It is just unacceptable!!! I will be placing my order for the V-Tracs and BMS drivers sooner than later, much sooner. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Jay: I agree. I spent several more hours tonight listening to the V-tracs. I went back to the stock setup a few times while playing the same source material. The more I listen to them, the more the difference becomes evident. Two issues will likely prevent me from the V-trac installation. First, I need a center channel that exactly matches the mains for my Home Theater layout. Second, is the cost of the 2" drivers. But I do love the sound. Greg has a winning combination here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Rudy I understand and feel your pain, but if I were you I would be working on some way of getting the horns and drivers. I feel that I just wouldn't be totally content knowing that I have heard better in my system, not to mention the huge difference we are talking about. If it were a subtle thing I could probably live with it, but it's not!!! Good luck my friend I really hope you can figure a way to get them. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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