Coytee Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Anyone here have any experience with an open loop geothermal system? (pump/dump) Though I'm investigating the logic of a closed loop, the land required creates some issues for me (not insurmountable). I got to thinking though, could I dump back into my well? Here's the facts: I think we're talking a 3 ton system (climeatemaster Tranquility 27) My well: (it's a realy hum dinger!!) Total depth 310 feet Intake at 220 feet Static level 104 feet 6" casing 3/4 horse pump 100 gallons/minute (yes, 100 gpm) The A/C guy was saying that there might be issues on dumping my discharge back into my well, that it might heat it up. I got to thinking about that and thought... well.. if my intake is at 220 feet and the bottom is at 310 feet, what if we drilled a hole into the well casing, installed a return pipe to a depth of say, 290 feet. This would get the discharge water UNDER my intake and put it into the area where I'm getting a fill rate of 100 gpm. I would hope this would "dilute' or wash away the discharge water and not make any issues with my intake. Thoughts?? My other idea is to spend another $2,500 to create an area in the field for a closed loop system. Problem here is, I don't own the land and would either have to buy it or figure something else out (owned by father in law). HVAC guys said since I have a backhoe, I could dig the trenches and save some money. They want the system at a 6' depth. Brutus (my hoe) will dig to 15.5 feet. Any merit in having the closed loop pipes at a depth of 8, 10, 12 feet?? This closed loop system also has a problem in that I have to cross over or under my buried power lines to the house. Something I'm not terribly keen on getting into since one mistake can create more racket than a Jubilee ever thought to! Also... any opinions on Climate Master as a brand?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Just for your knowledge the the home behind ours (8000 ft.) has a geothermal system which includes 7 wells 250 feet deep with a special fluid circulating in the plastic lines. The total system cost $250,000 and it really isn't that great in performance. It is also computer controlled. The wells are spaced about 15 ft apart. There are two hoses into each well hooked together at the bottom to prevent the fluid from contanimation which just recirculates through the well water transferring heat or cold. I did not watch them installing the hoses as they may have some fancy stuff for transferring the heat/cold.The gas heating bills are still outrageous. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Ohio is colder than here so I can understand the gas use in winter. I'd speculate a large part of their cost was drilling the wells? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Just for your knowledge the the home behind ours (8000 ft.) has a geothermal system which includes 7 wells 250 feet deep with a special fluid circulating in the plastic lines. The total system cost $250,000 and it really isn't that great in performance. It is also computer controlled. The wells are spaced about 15 ft apart. There are two hoses into each well hooked together at the bottom to prevent the fluid from contanimation which just recirculates through the well water transferring heat or cold. I did not watch them installing the hoses as they may have some fancy stuff for transferring the heat/cold.The gas heating bills are still outrageous. JJK What a rip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 The wells were dug with a new technology rig and they punched those 7 wells in 3 days. I'm not sure but I think the cost was $10.00 per foot. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 When I was living in Wisc. and doing some work for the state's electric co-op assoc., there were folks putting in closed loop systems and they were working out quite well (no pun intended). I sure don't remember the specifics, but they certainly didn't cost $250k. They can either be done as wells or put in the same way as Michael's PEX for his hot water heating. Greg Roberts might be one for some valid help and answers... Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I know just enough about this stuff to be dangerous. My job as a general contractor is to be resourceful enough to know who to call to take care of these things, not necessarily to know everything about these systems. I always tell my customers, no matter what alternative energy system (AES) you're thinking of using, the first and most important thing is to build a "shell" that these systems can work in. The actual construction of the home must be first and foremost, then, no matter what system is chosen, it will have to work less to heat or cool the home, and this will have more impact than anything else on my customer having a successful working system in the end. Whenever you hear about ultra-expensive AES's that also don't work well, it's either one of two things. Either there's a homeowner acting as their own general contractor, thinking they know what they're doing and they obviously don't, or the general contractor is not doing his job in explaining to the customers the need for building an energy efficient home BEFORE they spend a nickel on an AES. In your case Richard, if the system was working well before, why change the design? Having a well with 100 gpm recovery (I have one of those too), there's no way you'd heat that up with the discharge. I know of dozens of GSHP systems here in Maine that work by using the water well as the source for heating. The well is sized before hand and evaluated as it is being drilled according to the needs of the house. Most of these systems are hot air heat, which is unusual here in Maine, where most homes have hydronic baseboard heat. I went and saw a $30K system a couple of years ago with one of my customers when we were researching the feasibility of incorporating it into his new home, http://www.dcchomes.com/halpernpage.html and the whole thing was just way too complex, way too much ductwork running all over the place. He and I looked at each other and just shook our heads. The whole idea of building a super-insulated home is that you don't need as much heat and why the heck should the system have to be so big and complex? Just doesn't make sense. Once you've gone to the effort of reducing heating loads by two thirds, does it make any sense to spend another $30K on an AES? And to make matters worse, most of these systems, whether GSHP or solar, or whatever, are in addition to the normal heating system that being installed in the home. They can't handle the loads all by themselves. I love these systems because I'm a gear head by nature. I can sit in a chair for a couple of hours in a mechanical room and watch a solar tank heat up. But I don't think any of these AES's really make much sense up here in Maine. Level-headed customers that I've built homes for, that really wanted one at first, realized that it wasn't worth spending that much money on after doing some research. I really think the only people who actually install these systems are the ones who are doing so based on emotion, not results. I've built plenty of homes for people like this over the years. What really gauls me is when I'm paying for someone's AES through a government program. UGGGGH. Sorry for the ramble. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 In your case Richard, if the system was working well before, why change the design? The primary reason is my larger heat pump died and I need new compressor. Quote for compressor was about $1,600, quote for replacement system (air handler and outdoor exchanger) was about $3,500 with no credits. If I jump to a heat pump with propane backup, certain efficiency, it costs (I forget) maybe "X" dollars BUT with a 30% tax credit, it's net cost is $4,200, just a bump above the above unit. Then we stepped up the ladder and talked about the geo system. Seems It can be installed for about $9,200 with a $2,160 tax credit (Thanks Greg! [Y]) and a net cost of $6,440 and a 10 year warranty (if I recall). By the way, this high quote is with me digging the trenches!! I knew having that backhoe was worth its weight in speaker dust!! tonight after talking to the wife, we might also yank the working upstairs unit and simply swap the entire house over. Reason being is, we've had nothing but troubles with the heat pumps.. Virtually EVERY single year they need to come out to fix something. Usually a shot of freon to as much as swapping out a new coil. All under warranty but now it's over so it's my cost. I'm sick of this original system. If we finish out the basement, install drywall, build shelves...and THEN the upstairs unit goes out, I'll have to rip most of that out to gain access to the pipes. If on the other hand, I do it NOW, I currently have open walls and can hopefully do it now and then forget about it. Or so the theory goes. Greg, thanks again for your tax dollars... I'll appreciate it when I get that tax credit of 30% [Y] Did I mention that the 30% dollar for dollar tax credit, provided by the government and your tax dollars was appreciated....Greg? huh? Just wanted to thank you for your tax dollars going to work for me...[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Greg, thanks again for your tax dollars... I'll appreciate it when I get that tax credit of 30% Did I mention that the 30% dollar for dollar tax credit, provided by the government and your tax dollars was appreciated....Greg? huh? Just wanted to thank you for your tax dollars going to work for me... Rrrrrrr. Why I oughta . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwillwalk Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 my best friend installs them (closed loop systems) & they work great, anyone spending 250,00 got ripped off but were in florida my friend south of town have a sinkhole in the back yard so they just dropped the pipe in there, works like a champ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 They just found a natural gas reserve on the east coast the size texas. Which do you think will be cheaper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 Which do you think will be cheaper? Since I don't have natural gas (nor even un-natural gas) available to me... I'm not sure it matters in my case what the price of natural gas is? I'm on TVA's system and if I am powered by my local dam then I'm on hydro-electric. I don't know how they route their power though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 They just found a natural gas reserve on the east coast the size texas. Which do you think will be cheaper? If you're referring to the Chesapeake Energy Corp find in LA, its not going to keep up with the increased population and even if it could, they will make sure to not increase production as to cause any reduction in the yearly rate increases we have all enjoys over the past 20 years. I would say, if their stock pays a good dividend then its a buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Correction: The $250,000 was for the entire heating and ventilation system in the house including the geothermal stuff. The landscaping was also $250,000. The front door was $10,000. The buried electric, water and gas line ditch was $30,000 into solid rock. The owner stopped counting after $1.5 million. The surveying and bore tests were only $78,000. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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