sliqmick Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Greetings all........1st time poster here! A friend of mine blew a cap in his '72 Cornwalls. Being a tech he calls me. I'm thinking of replacing it with a Solen "Chatearoux" line polyprop cap. Any comments or critisms?? Thanks in advance, Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 My cap blew off the first time I heard my Cornwalls, too! Man, what a sound! I think they have Klipsch logo caps for sale (as a replacement, if your friend can't find his). Is the cap you're talking about baseball-style, or is it a beret? It sounds French. Welcome! fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Solen is OK.I assume he puked one of the 4µF? Replace them in both speakers for the best sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 If I blew a cap in my Cornwalls, I would probably replace it with an oil filled cap from an electronic supply place. If you look, you canh find one that are almost identical, and they are super cheap (unless you buy them from an audio place, then you'll pay about 20 times the price). Also, as DJK stated, do both caps. If you want to use non-metalized film and foil, Parts Express now carries a reasonably priced line. If I couldn't get the oil filled, I'd get these. Solen would be a third choice. Regards, Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Mick, My two cents worth is forget the oil filled caps and go with the Polyproplyne. All oil and paper does is make loss, like sticking a resistor in series with a perfect cap. The best caps I have found are the Hovland MusicCaps. They have quality factors over 2000. Oil caps are around 400 (give or take). The Hovlands cost BIG bucks though! The Solen "FastCaps" are a very good second choice. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Al, Is all that mantra about oil filled caps being good with horns not true? Why does/did Klipsch use them? They seem to sound pretty good and are generally reliable. Also, what is a quality factor in a cap? The new line of AudioCaps from Parts Express http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3&cat_id=41&objectgroup=163 appear to be the same polypropylene film and foil construction as the Hovlands - at a MUCH cheaper price. What do you think about these? By the way, I know its hard to communicate inflection in these posts; this post is written with a friendly, curious tone (not accusatory). I respect your opinion and I understand you know a heck of a lot more about crossovers than I do. Warmest regards, Andy P.S. I'm using Solen fast caps in Bozaks and I like them. This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 03-03-2002 at 07:48 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 I use Solen 5% metallized polypropelene caps. IMHO they work just fine. Lots of other reasonable choices as other posts indicate. Klipsch used oil filled caps in the past because they were what was available at the time that could do a reasonable job at a reasonable price. In terms of stability and longevity, they were better than nonpolarized electrolytics, which were the other choice at the time. In the later Heresys, Klipsch replaced paper in oil caps with metallized film caps. Capacitor technology has progressed a lot. The fact is, better choices are available today. Would you use nonpolarized electrolytics in a crossover now because Altec, ElectroVoice and other big names used them in their crossovers in the past? If he prefers originality to better sound, just about any paper in oil cap with the appropriate capacitance and voltage rating will work as well as the original. They can be found on the used market, including eBay, for a few bucks. Klipsch used product from whoever they could get it. Voltage ratings, form factor, and mounting lugs varied a lot. Anything from 100V up should be fine. Newer "audiophile" oil caps might sound better than the originals, but are a lot more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Malcolm, Thanks for the reply. Couple of thoughts. Klipsch used oil filled caps in their Khorns and La Scalas at least into the 90's (may still, but I'm not sure), which is LONG after film and foil, either metalized or non-metalized, became available. My 1963 tube equipment is loaded with all kinds of original non-metalized film and foil caps (you know, much like Hovlands). So, this is not real new technology. I can sort of understand Klipsch doing it to be cheap, but it would seem to reason they would use the better caps on the K-horns, and the cheaper caps on the Heresys. Heresys and other Klipsch speakers started using metalized film and foil (similar to Solen fast caps), while the flagship speakers (Klipschorn, La Scala, Belle) continued to use oil filled caps. If the metalized film were so good with horns, why not put them in the flagship line up as well? Again, is their something to the oil filled caps and horns? Klipsch seems to think so. Because they continue to use them in their big horns, it makes me feel like they're onto something. I'd ask them about it, but they're rather clandestine in these matters. Although limited, my understanding of Q, or resonance magnification, suggests that a LOWER Q is BETTER, at least in inductors (several inductor manufacters suggest a lower Q being BETTER for their inductors). I'm not sure about caps and Q. Also, I'm only assuming Al is talking about resonance magnification, or Q, when he talks about "quality factor." They may be totally different - that's why I was askng. I've designed, built, and tweaked crossovers over the years, but I realize Al Klappenberger is the "crossover guru" on this bulletin board. I guess I should start a new thread - sorry to bog your thread down Mick. Great topic, though. Warmest regards to all, Andy This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 03-02-2002 at 05:11 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 It's a excellent post, Andy. These are some questions that I always wonder about as well. I've built a couple of passive's also. It's seems to me caps are like Opamps, or Baskin Robbins. There is a bunch of flavors to choose from, depending on whatever design you have in mind and how much money you are willing to throw in. Then the 'The point of diminishing returns' factor plays in as well. Maybe Klipsch just figures, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Uh,sorry Mick. I agree with DJK as far as Solens. THANX! This message has been edited by mike stehr on 03-01-2002 at 04:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sliqmick Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 WOW! To be honest, I was expecting a more "across the board concensus" re: this topic. Your opinions & comments are both revered and appreciated! djk.......Good call on the value & I had intended on a matched set also-thumbs up! k-guy.....with a name like that, you deserve to be heard-no apologies necessary. I wanted opinions. Thank You Sir Al & Malcolm.......Kudos to you both. You are both obviously well informed and knowledgable on this subject matter. You both greatly influenced my decision. (Yes, it'll be solen) I've ordered the parts($2.20 ea. via Madisound) & they should arrive early next week. I will reply to this post once they are installed to let Y'all know what the outcome is. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted March 2, 2002 Share Posted March 2, 2002 Anyone ever try the Infinicaps??? They've got a flavor with sealed ends for this type of service(in speaker). I have used them to replace just about every foil cap imaginable with the inclusion of Multicap RTX and can tell you they are very detailed and have improved the focus tremendously! Breakin period REQUIRED, much like the Blackgates. http://members.aol.com/trtwonder/ http://www.bainbridge.net/percyaudio/ This message has been edited by SOUNDJUNKIE on 03-02-2002 at 11:34 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted March 2, 2002 Share Posted March 2, 2002 Hi guys, I have been busy lately and haven't been watching the board as much, so I see a lot of people have commented on the capacitor thing. No surprise, it is a rather important topic. I would like to know about the new film and foil caps from parts express. I am not aware of them. could go give me some details.. As to "quality factor", the stored energy explanation is correct, but I am thinking of it in filter designer terms. That is, the ratio of equivalent loss, as a resistor, in series with the reactance of a pure capacitor. It's described in mathematical terms as Q = X / R. Reactance is the X part. That is determined by 1 / (2 x Pi x F x C). So.. A 2.2 uF cap at 1000 Hz will have: 1 / (6.28 x 1000 x 2.2 millionths) Ohms of reactance. That works out to 72.34 Ohms. Quality factor being Q = X / R, a 2.2 uF cap with a Q of 2000 will have a resistor of .0362 Ohms inside it. That's the Hovland film and foil cap. An old oil fill cap of the same capacity but with a Q of 400 will have a, equivalent resistor of .18 Ohms inside it. Inductors are by far the worst offenders. The very best coils I have found (Solen Litz) have Q factors of about 40-50 at 6000 Hz. The .3 mHy coil I use in my "A" series networks has a series resistance of about .25 Ohms. A typical coil wound of solid wire would have a series resistance of about 1 Ohm. By the way, this is NOT DC resistance and you can't measure it with an Ohm meter! It is AC resistance and requires other instruments to measure, such as an impedance bridge. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted March 2, 2002 Share Posted March 2, 2002 Yep, capacitor selection is about as heated a topic as tube v. solid state and speaker wire selection. My guess is Klipsch continued using oil caps in the Klipschorns because people who buy them expect oil caps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted March 2, 2002 Share Posted March 2, 2002 I think they phased out paper in oil in the smaller systems because of supply problems. I don't think there is a major manufacturer that still makes paper in oil caps, they have long since been phased out and replaced by metallized polypropelene in oil. They look the same externally but are different inside. Which brings up an interesting question. Are the oil caps in the later Klipschorns paper in oil or metallized polypropelene in oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted March 2, 2002 Share Posted March 2, 2002 Al, Thank you very much for the reply. The straight foward answer sheds a lot of light on inductors and capacitors. Numbers are great! I also appreciate others input here. Warmest regards, Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.