Need an advice on a speaker cable, please!

[psg]

Answer this: Do you also hear differences between ordinary wire of sufficient gauge?

No, because in that case the comparison is between two very similar designs. My position is that it's mostly the different design elements that create a different sound.

So... all cheap wires sounds the same, yet they all remove the same something from the signal, and expensive wires use different designs that science doesn't understand and can't quantify, and they are able to more properly pass the very subtle signals unaltered. The same signal that were first recorded using hundreds of feet of cables of mixed design and quality, for microphones and between mixing consoles and other equipment. That sums it up? [8-)]

why do I need to have experience with the top end of wires?

You should if you wish to claim that there is no difference which has been your point of view. Hard to make a case for something without having any experience with it (and we are talking audio here, not geography, physics or mathematics).

Because audio is far ahead of known science, nothing like geography, physics or mathematics. Okay...

Even if my scientific training is keeping me from enjoying my system to its maximum potential, I'd have to dismiss science to believe this stuff and I'd rather not have to do that.

[Hifi jim]

You imply that if you sold your Klipsch speakers and bought some other brand like the chameleon B&W............that your expensive wires would sound better.

No, I'm stating from experience that the B&W speakers that I owned were more transparent and showed small differences between things like cables more clearly. It is always about synergy. I've tried very expensive cables on my Klipsch speakers and have never liked the outcome. Expensive cables are usually silver or silver plated copper, but for some reason (and others here have concurred), silver or silver plating does not mesh very well with Klipsch. I'm currently using some old Monster Cable (because they are the only cables I currently own which are longer enough) and they are nothing more than oversized zip cord. I've tried Kimber 4tc in the past and preferred it to the Monster on my Klipsch speakers, but both sound reasonably well. I'm not sure I can be clear enough about this: I am not looking down on zip cord or Klipsch. I am merely trying to say that there is a difference between differently designed cables which is audible, this has nothing to do with price, or which is better. In the end, it is about the synergy with your own system and what sounds best to you. I simply take exception, when people with little or no experience auditioning different cables can say matter of factly that all cables sound alike.

[Hifi jim]

So... all cheap wires sounds the same, yet they all remove the same something from the signal, and expensive wires use different designs that science doesn't understand and can't quantify, and they are able to more properly pass the very subtle signals unaltered. The same signal that were first recorded using hundreds of feet of cables of mixed design and quality, for microphones and between mixing consoles and other equipment. That sums it up?

Please look back on the past thread (I can't remember the name at the moment) for the explanation about how studio cables are in a completely different realm from what we are taking about. You are comparing the quality of a recording to the fidelity of playback, two distinctly different topics. I'm sure you remember our past conversation on this?

Because audio is far ahead of known science, nothing like geography, physics or mathematics. Okay...

You should read up on how little is known about the way humans interpret sound. Audio has many unexplained phenomenons, as does other areas of science, math and physics. Do you believe we have learned all there is too know about everything? How about just audio?

[Hifi jim]

Lets look at how all of this started: a simple question asked by someone new to the forum. I, and some others here tried to answer his question the best we knew how. He stated later in the thread, that he has heard differences in cables and therefore wishes to pursue this. Still, many of you have jumped up and shouted snake oil, and science says no! This poor fellow will probably never post again, certainly never about cables. For those of us who wish to indulge in such conversation, I ask for some understanding. Is that too much to ask for? Feel free to start you own threads about snake oil and the evil cable business.

Hi All,

This is my first post here, and I need your help

I run a pair of Klipschorns on a high-quality custom-made tube amp (45 triodes). I am looking for a cable to connect them (right now I have a temporary solution). I want something that fits the "warm" sounding of the system I have (not sharpening the highs, etc.). I am mostly listening to chamber, sometimes symphonic things (if you're not into classics, think about chamber jazz).

I was considering Audioquest (but here in the New York region I couldn't find a listening room to try, those idiots "just sell"). The approximate budget I am targeting at right now is up to $400-500 for appr. 2.5 meters (8") length. Would buying a used cable (Audiogon/ebay) be a good idea?

Thanks!

[psg]

So... all cheap wires sounds the same, yet they all remove the same something from the signal, and expensive wires use different designs that science doesn't understand and can't quantify, and they are able to more properly pass the very subtle signals unaltered. The same signal that were first recorded using hundreds of feet of cables of mixed design and quality, for microphones and between mixing consoles and other equipment. That sums it up?

Please look back on the past thread (I can't remember the name at the moment) for the explanation about how studio cables are in a completely different realm from what we are taking about. You are comparing the quality of a recording to the fidelity of playback, two distinctly different topics. I'm sure you remember our past conversation on this?

Didn't agree then, don't agree now. I don't believe there's any magic in the recording, nor in the playback. You look at wires like they are adding something, but they can only filter stuff out (or alter it in phase, also a filter). If it sounds different, it is filtering.

Because audio is far ahead of known science, nothing like geography, physics or mathematics. Okay...

You should read up on how little is known about the way humans interpret sound. Audio has many unexplained phenomenons, as does other areas of science, math and physics. Do you believe we have learned all there is too know about everything? How about just audio?

The way humans interpret sound has little to do with the physics involved in the playback of lowish frequency electrical signals through speaker wire. Learning all there is to know about everything has little to do with wires. I believe that part has been covered pretty well.

[Islander]

ALL speaker cables (and all audio components, for that matter), degrade, at least slightly, the sound signal going through them. Some cables degrade it less than others. Some of these "less bad" cables are expensive, some are not.

Can everyone agree with those statements?

[Hifi jim]

Yes. [:#]

[yrtimed]

Hifi jim, thanks. I'll post here when I finally make up my mind and have the system assembled and sounding []

[psg]

Pat is trying to find a peaceful middleground. [A]

ALL speaker cables (and all audio components, for that matter), degrade, at least slightly, the sound signal going through them. Some cables degrade it less than others. Some of these "less bad" cables are expensive, some are not.

Can everyone agree with those statements?

Perhaps, except that:

1. I don't believe that the degration would be audible over 10 or 15 feet. Note that Hifi Jim doesn't hear differences between ordinary wires either.

2. If fancy cables sound very different from eachother, it's not bad synergy, it's the fancy cable degrading the signal.

[:#]

[The Dude]

ALL speaker cables (and all audio components, for that matter), degrade, at least slightly, the sound signal going through them. Some cables degrade it less than others. Some of these "less bad" cables are expensive, some are not.

Can everyone agree with those statements?

I can.

[Coytee]

Pat is trying to find a peaceful middleground.

The heretic! Let's burn him at the stake! [6]

I've come to understand from a sage ole coot that wires can be capacitive or reactive (inductive???) (and I don't really understand how) and to that end, they can indeed influence the sound. I now speculate based on that understanding that if you have speakers or maybe electronics of a certain type, that someone might find that pleasing or not. Again, I do not know what a capacitive or reactive wire might do to the sound, just that it can do something.... basically eq'ing the sound by swapping out various wires. now the question in part becomes does the (essentially blind) eq'ing sound better than before and is it worth the expense for that change.

If my understanding there is accurate, then I'd wonder if it's more accurate to suggest (as has already been done), instead of essentially eq'ing your sound by swapping out various brands/styles of wires, perhaps an EQ itself might be worth considering?

Interesting stuff to me. Tastes GREAT, less FILLING!!!!!

I still wonder if someone who appreciates wire changes might find a larger appreciation for moving up from say, Cornwalls to LaScalas (and keep the same original wire). Or move from LaScalas to Khorns or to JubeScalas...

Simply seems to me that to the degree wire changes might/do change the sound it's more of a seasoning flavor change and not necessarily a quantum leap. I'd take Jubilees, Khorns or LaScalas any day with zip cord over some Heresy's with the fanciest/best possible wire out there. Heck, I'd take Jubilees with those cheap IC's that come in the box with new CD or DVD purchases and Home Depot 12g outdoor wiring (thanks Mark) over Khorns with the fanciest of fancy wires. Does that logic make sense?

Hey Pat... I'll shortly be next to you, burning at the stake. Keep my spot warm... [] [^o)]

[Oblio]

I've come to understand from a sage ole coot that wires can be capacitive or reactive (inductive???) (and I don't really understand how) and to that end, they can indeed influence the sound. I now speculate based on that understanding that if you have speakers or maybe electronics of a certain type, that someone might find that pleasing or not. Again, I do not know what a capacitive or reactive wire might do to the sound, just that it can do something.... basically eq'ing the sound by swapping out various wires. now the question in part becomes does the (essentially blind) eq'ing sound better than before and is it worth the expense for that change.

Think of the wire as having an infinite number of single-pole low-pass filters that are infinitly small [H] . Topologically speaking, on one wire you have a series of inductors that presents inductive reactance that increases with frequency. In between each inductor you have a capacitor that connects to the other wire which presents a reactance that decreases with frequency. At DC there is no reactance (aside from pure resistance) in the inductors and the capacitors reactance is infinite and the signal is passed with no degradation/attenuation. At very high frequencies (given the parasitic inductace/capacitance of the materials/lengths we are talking about) the current through the inductors is reduced and that through the capacitors is increased which reduces that which is available at the load (along with phase shifts).

That being said, the effect of the wire is many orders of magnitudes LESS than the load, which is usually a crossover with REALLY big inductors/capacitors and voice coils, or the source which might have an EQ or output transformer.

[Islander]

Hey Pat... I'll shortly be next to you, burning at the stake. Keep my spot warm...

And when we get to hell, we'll meet all our friends. "Hell, the place where everyone knows your name..."

[Coytee]

Think of the wire as having an infinite number of single-pole low-pass filters that are infinitly small . Topologically speaking, on one wire you have a series of inductors that presents inductive reactance that increases with frequency. In between each inductor you have a capacitor that connects to the other wire which presents a reactance that decreases with frequency. At DC there is no reactance (aside from pure resistance) in the inductors and the capacitors reactance is infinite and the signal is passed with no degradation/attenuation. At very high frequencies (given the parasitic inductace/capacitance of the materials/lengths we are talking about) the current through the inductors is reduced and that through the capacitors is increased which reduces that which is available at the load (along with phase shifts).

That being said, the effect of the wire is many orders of magnitudes LESS than the load, which is usually a crossover with REALLY big inductors/capacitors and voice coils, or the source which might have an EQ or output transformer.

uh oh... you must be one of those electrical engineers.... about the only thing I understood in what you said was.... well.... not much! [] From my perspective though, that's ok since I'm happy as a bug with my setup and don't get to bothered by the Less filling/Tastes great conversations.

[psg]

Think of the wire as having an infinite number of single-pole low-pass filters that are infinitly small . Topologically speaking, on one wire you have a series of inductors that presents inductive reactance that increases with frequency. In between each inductor you have a capacitor that connects to the other wire which presents a reactance that decreases with frequency. At DC there is no reactance (aside from pure resistance) in the inductors and the capacitors reactance is infinite and the signal is passed with no degradation/attenuation. At very high frequencies (given the parasitic inductace/capacitance of the materials/lengths we are talking about) the current through the inductors is reduced and that through the capacitors is increased which reduces that which is available at the load (along with phase shifts).

That being said, the effect of the wire is many orders of magnitudes LESS than the load, which is usually a crossover with REALLY big inductors/capacitors and voice coils, or the source which might have an EQ or output transformer.

uh oh... you must be one of those electrical engineers.... about the only thing I understood in what you said was.... well.... not much! From my perspective though, that's ok since I'm happy as a bug with my setup and don't get to bothered by the Less filling/Tastes great conversations.

I thought it was a great post!

I guess us scientists and engineers mostly side on the same side of the fence on this issue.

[Islander]

1. I don't believe that the degration would be audible over 10 or 15 feet. Note that Hifi Jim doesn't hear differences between ordinary wires either.

2. If fancy cables sound very different from eachother, it's not bad synergy, it's the fancy cable degrading the signal.

I've never tried fancy cables, but I've used big and small cables and there's a definite difference. That difference may be less with Klipsch speakers, but with my old, maybe 90-92dB/W, Audio Logic speakers, when going from 18 gauge zip cord to 14 gauge Brand X "home theatre" cable from London Drugs (those shops carry video and audio, including Klipsch, plus computers and cameras, even pharmacy stuff), the difference was unmistakable.

A further upgrade to 12 gauge produced a smaller improvement, but I could still hear it easily, both in improved transients and clarity.

Thinking "If some is good, more is better", I got some 8 gauge twisted pair cable and it seems to help. In any case, I can sit and listen and feel that in at least one area of the sound system, I didn't compromise at all. That in itself has value to me.

[Oblio]

Yup, I'm one of those [] , though I spend most of my time programming processors that are older than my KHorns rather than H/W design/analysis.

[Oblio]

1. I don't believe that the degration would be audible over 10 or 15 feet. Note that Hifi Jim doesn't hear differences between ordinary wires either.

2. If fancy cables sound very different from eachother, it's not bad synergy, it's the fancy cable degrading the signal.

I've never tried fancy cables, but I've used big and small cables and there's a definite difference. That difference may be less with Klipsch speakers, but with my old, maybe 90-92dB/W, Audio Logic speakers, when going from zip cord to 14 gauge no-name "home theatre" cable from London Drugs (those shops carry video and audio, including Klipsch, plus computers and cameras, even pharmacy stuff), the difference was unmistakable.

A further upgrade to 12 gauge produced a smaller improvement, but I could still hear it, both in improved transients and clarity.

Thinking "If some is good, more is better", I got some 8 gauge twisted pair cable and it seems to help. In any case, I can sit and listen and feel that in at least one area of the sound system, I didn't compromise at all. That in itself has value to me.

Small (or very poor quality) wire with long runs runs up the resistance which WILL (in combination with the load) change the overall frequency response.

[psg]

Also, before replacing the crappy wire you think you don't like and are using bare wire connections, try cutting off new ends to refresh that oxidated wire and make sure that the connections are tight. Using screw-on plugs? Make sure they are tight as well!

It's possible that the better sound with the new wire was simply caused by proper connections.

[Bill H.]

Also in this Economy, just go to "The Shack" and bank the difference in your savings account.

*Sex,Religion, and speaker wire...............Oh my...............[:#]