Need an advice on a speaker cable, please!

[russ69]

But lamp cord has to be better because it's so cheap, right?

Thanx, Russ

[psg]

It's cheaper. And more right than fancy wire if the fancy wire alters the signal so that you can perceive an improvement.

Not sure where you've read or perceived that as truth, but perhaps you should use your ears as this is a hobby based on using what sounds best.

Huh?

Wire is not meant to alter the sound. If it does, it's a bad thing. So if all cheap wire sounds the same to you and only super-expensive wire sounds different, perhaps you should consider the possibility that the cheap ones sound correct and that the expensive wire is altering the sound.

If speaker A sounds better than speaker B, than wouldn't you purchase speaker A?

Absolutely. Are you suggesting that the transducer role of a speakers, transforming an electrical signal into sound, has no more probability of sounding different from one implementation to the next than wire?

And if cable X sounds better than cable Y, wouldn't you purchase cable X? That's how I built my audio systems, and I thought that's how others did it... but I'm seeing a trend towards reading, mathematics and ill fated philosophies rather than listening here.

First, please don't call wire a cable. It's not. Wires have no sound to them. I suspious of any wires designed to sound different.

[Hifi jim]

Wire is not meant to alter the sound. If it does, it's a bad thing. So if all cheap wire sounds the same to you and only super-expensive wire sounds different, perhaps you should consider the possibility that the cheap ones sound correct and that the expensive wire is altering the sound.

Shouldn't you consider the possibility that zip cord is altering the sound while other cables are more correct? Who's to say which is correct, you? Me? How about whichever sounds best?

Are you suggesting that the transducer role of a speakers, transforming an electrical signal into sound, has no more probability of sounding different from one implementation to the next than wire?

I'm suggesting that you sample cables as you would any other component in your system and make your decisions based entirely on that.

First, please don't call wire a cable. It's not.

Definition of cable: an insulated wire, or wires having a protective casing and used for transmitting electricity or telecommunication signals.

I suspious of any wires designed to sound different.

Different than what? Nobody ever speced plain 'ol copper zip cord as the basis for all audio. It was simply what was available at the time. Other options have since become available, many which sound much better to many people. If you have compared many different cables in your system and prefer what you have now... fine. But, if you haven't and are merely suspicious of other wires for their design principles than you are limiting yourself and your system much the way somebody who would only listen to horn speakers, or tube amps, or solid state amps, etc. There is a whole world of audio out there, and without actually listening to it for yourself, you'll never have any idea what any of it actually sounds like. []

[psg]

Wire is not meant to alter the sound. If it does, it's a bad thing. So if all cheap wire sounds the same to you and only super-expensive wire sounds different, perhaps you should consider the possibility that the cheap ones sound correct and that the expensive wire is altering the sound.

Shouldn't you consider the possibility that zip cord is altering the sound while other cables are more correct? Who's to say which is correct, you? Me? How about whichever sounds best?

You are missing my point. I can't hear the difference between the various affordable wires that I have tried. Going from 16 AWG to 14 AWK to 12 AWG on short lengths has never really changed anything. They all sound the same. Yet people like you say I can't know for sure because I haven't tried $100 a foot wires, and people like you say those sound different. What is the probability that inexpensive wires all sound the same yet wrong, and that expensive cables that sound different yet correct?

If cheap wires altered the sound, they would all sound different (like cheap speakers do). But they don't; they sound the same.

But, if you haven't and are merely suspicious of other wires for their
design principles than you are limiting yourself and your system much
the way somebody who would only listen to horn speakers, or tube amps,
or solid state amps, etc. There is a whole world of audio out there,
and without actually listening to it for yourself, you'll never have
any idea what any of it actually sounds like.

Based on the premise that wires should sound different from eachother, which has no basis on theory, scientific principle, or even fact.

[Hifi jim]

You are missing my point. I can't hear the difference between the various affordable wires that I have tried. Going from 16 AWG to 14 AWK to 12 AWG on short lengths has never really changed anything. They all sound the same. Yet people like you say I can't know for sure because I haven't tried $100 a foot wires, and people like you say those sound different. What is the probability that inexpensive wires all sound the same yet wrong, and that expensive cables that sound different yet correct?

I see your point, which is: you can only accurately speak about the cables that you have tried. Do more expensive cables sound different? Yes, some do. Cheap cables mostly are built around the same premise, quality copper and insulation to reject RF. The more expensive cables use all sorts of different approaches which do sound very different from ordinary Monster type cables. Also, the system and more importantly the speakers used have the largest effect on hearing the difference between things like cables. Ready for flames here: Klipsch are not the most revealing speakers for such comparisons, nonetheless they are capable for distinguishing between most cables I have tried... Klipsch just are not as fussy about cables and sources as some other speakers in my experience. So yes, I do say your wrong because you're arguing a point that you have no experience with. It would be like somebody saying that Klipschorns are bright and thin sounding without ever hearing a pair. It's hard to make an accurate assessment of any audio product without actually listening to it.

[Hifi jim]

But, if you haven't and are merely suspicious of other wires for their

design principles than you are limiting yourself and your system much

the way somebody who would only listen to horn speakers, or tube amps,

or solid state amps, etc. There is a whole world of audio out there,

and without actually listening to it for yourself, you'll never have

any idea what any of it actually sounds like.

Based on the premise that wires should sound different from eachother, which has no basis on theory, scientific principle, or even fact.

? You obviously have knowledge of the unwritten laws of audio physics that I do not. These are still new and relatively uncharted waters here. Many things in audio are not yet understood and many more are without explanation, the next sixty years should be even more telling than the last sixty. All we can do is listen and determine which designs best suite our purposes. Fear of changing cables in a system because it goes against age old theories is a bit silly no? If we held onto such old theories we would have never had such advancements in audio as we now have. Change is good []

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[Don Richard]

It's hard to make an accurate assessment of any audio product without actually listening to it.

Funny how wires were not considered an "audio product" until people started charging big bucks for wire. Before that time people referred to a high quality component as "a straight wire with gain". Now we are expected to believe that a simple wire, without gain, should change the sound. At audio frequencies, considering the lengths involved, wire should not change anything, If a change is percieved, something is wrong with that wire, or the incorrect size or type of wire is being used.

[Hifi jim]

It's hard to make an accurate assessment of any audio product without actually listening to it.

Funny how wires were not considered an "audio product" until people started charging big bucks for wire. Before that time people referred to a high quality component as "a straight wire with gain". Now we are expected to believe that a simple wire, without gain, should change the sound. At audio frequencies, considering the lengths involved, wire should not change anything, If a change is percieved, something is wrong with that wire, or the incorrect size or type of wire is being used.

Funnier still, is that all the naysayers have the least experience with cable experimentation. If people of such limited experience shouted about conspiracies and science when comparing speakers or amps that they've never heard they'd be labeled as mentally unstable. []

[oldenough]

It's hard to make an accurate assessment of any audio product without actually listening to it.

Funny how wires were not considered an "audio product" until people started charging big bucks for wire. Before that time people referred to a high quality component as "a straight wire with gain". Now we are expected to believe that a simple wire, without gain, should change the sound. At audio frequencies, considering the lengths involved, wire should not change anything, If a change is percieved, something is wrong with that wire, or the incorrect size or type of wire is being used.

Funnier still, is that all the naysayers have the least experience with cable experimentation. If people of such limited experience shouted about conspiracies and science when comparing speakers or amps that they've never heard they'd be labeled as mentally unstable.

And even funnier yet, is that this argument rages....the differences are obvious to the believers, and yet no measurable differences can generally be found. Whats more nothing conclusive has come from any testing you could name. As for me...and yes my experience is limited...I have yet to hear any difference in the few wires (cables) that I have tried. But...I am not so narrow minded as to dismiss the claims out of hand, as I am sure one of the converted could put on a demonstration to back-up the claims. Or would this be too simple???

[Hifi jim]

It's hard to make an accurate assessment of any audio product without actually listening to it.

Funny how wires were not considered an "audio product" until people started charging big bucks for wire. Before that time people referred to a high quality component as "a straight wire with gain". Now we are expected to believe that a simple wire, without gain, should change the sound. At audio frequencies, considering the lengths involved, wire should not change anything, If a change is percieved, something is wrong with that wire, or the incorrect size or type of wire is being used.

Funnier still, is that all the naysayers have the least experience with cable experimentation. If people of such limited experience shouted about conspiracies and science when comparing speakers or amps that they've never heard they'd be labeled as mentally unstable.

And even funnier yet, is that this argument rages....the differences are obvious to the believers, and yet no measurable differences can generally be found. Whats more nothing conclusive has come from any testing you could name. As for me...and yes my experience is limited...I have yet to hear any difference in the few wires (cables) that I have tried. But...I am not so narrow minded as to dismiss the claims out of hand, as I am sure one of the converted could put on a demonstration to back-up the claims. Or would this be too simple???

Oldenough, you are a wise man. I think you've about summed it up. My attempt, in a few threads back, was to pass around a couple of pairs of relatively inexpensive (well by hi-fi standards) interconnects and have people post their findings. Two people took me up on the offer and posted their findings, everybody else had a reason or two not to try them, too short, don't have use for RCAs, etc. Not sure why it's hard to implement a half meter pair of RCA interconnects even temporarily in any system, but there it was. There is nothing as good as sampling a cable in ones own system, where the room, speakers and even music selection is most familiar.

[mark1101]

Funny how a Klipsch speaker is NOT REVEALING enough to show how good speaker wires can sound..........and that other speaker brands are more revealing in this regard.

Someone PLEASE help me out and post a giant BS button before I puke. [+o(]

And.......what speakers do you find more revealing for showing up amp buzz, hum, and hiss more than Klipsch?

[Hifi jim]

Funny how a Klipsch speaker is NOT REVEALING enough to show how good speaker wires can sound..........and that other speaker brands are more revealing in this regard.

As I stated earlier, they are capable of differentiating between cables but not to the extent that some speakers can. I think horn speakers are more direct to ear, and are less dependent on room acoustics and ancillary equipment than many cone or ribbon speakers. Speakers like B&W are chameleon like in their ability to sound radically different depending upon cabling, amps, rooms, and sources. Some might call this ruthlessly revealing, but it does make for a very good studio monitor.

And.......what speakers do you find more revealing for showing up amp buzz, hum, and hiss more than Klipsch?

Klipsch like most horns are very revealing of amp buzz and hum, but that is a product of their efficiency and not what they are necessarily capable of revealing.

[Islander]

Funny how a Klipsch speaker is NOT REVEALING enough to show how good speaker wires can sound..........and that other speaker brands are more revealing in this regard.

I think Hifi jim means that the high sensitivity of Klipsch speakers means that there is usually much less current running through their speaker wires, so differences in those wires are less obvious than they would be with speakers that need lots of power going to them.

That sounds plausible to me. It seems obvious that a 108dB/W speaker could sound fine with smaller cables than an 86dB/W speaker when listening to equally loud music, for example.

[Don Richard]

Funnier still, is that all the naysayers have the least experience with cable experimentation. If people of such limited experience shouted about conspiracies and science when comparing speakers or amps that they've never heard they'd be labeled as mentally unstable.

Well, for the last 20 years I have worked for an engineering/manufacturing firm that designs and manufactures cables for industrial applications. One of my responsibilities was to spec, design, and supervise the wiring and assembly of cables. I can assure you that everything that I have written about this subject is in accordance with accepted engineering knowledge and practice. The fact that you don't understand the facts certainly does not give you the right to suggest that people who do understand are crazy or unstable.

Competent engineers routinely look at wiring diagrams of circuitry and determine, from their knowledge of electrical theory and laws, whether that circuit will operate in the manner intended. That does not mean they are unstable because they didn't have to actually construct the project to make that determination. It means they know how to do their job.

[Hifi jim]

Funnier still, is that all the naysayers have the least experience with cable experimentation. If people of such limited experience shouted about conspiracies and science when comparing speakers or amps that they've never heard they'd be labeled as mentally unstable.

Well, for the last 20 years I have worked for an engineering/manufacturing firm that designs and manufactures cables for industrial applications. One of my responsibilities was to spec, design, and supervise the wiring and assembly of cables. I can assure you that everything that I have written about this subject is in accordance with accepted engineering knowledge and practice. The fact that you don't understand the facts certainly does not give you the right to suggest that people who do understand are crazy or unstable.

Competent engineers routinely look at wiring diagrams of circuitry and determine, from their knowledge of electrical theory and laws, whether that circuit will operate in the manner intended. That does not mean they are unstable because they didn't have to actually construct the project to make that determination. It means they know how to do their job.

I think you've misunderstood my post Don. I have lots of respect for engineers and the jobs they do. I work with electrical engineers frequently as I'm an industrial electrician. Electrical theory and the practical application of electricity is widely understood in its current use. However, there are still many electrical frontiers to be crossed, think about superconductors and wireless energy transfer. I'm suggesting that audio has its own unknowns and until such time that we are able to accurately measure what we are hearing, we must be somewhat dependent on ours ears... this is after all, a hobby about listening. It's my opinion, that those who do not care to listen and make assessments based entirely on paper are missing the point of this debate... and this hobby.

[psg]

But, if you haven't and are merely suspicious of other wires for their
design principles than you are limiting yourself and your system much
the way somebody who would only listen to horn speakers, or tube amps,
or solid state amps, etc. There is a whole world of audio out there,
and without actually listening to it for yourself, you'll never have
any idea what any of it actually sounds like.

Based on the premise that wires should sound different from eachother, which has no basis on theory, scientific principle, or even fact.

? You obviously have knowledge of the unwritten laws of audio physics that I do not. These are still new and relatively uncharted waters here. Many things in audio are not yet understood and many more are without explanation, the next sixty years should be even more telling than the last sixty. All we can do is listen and determine which designs best suite our purposes. Fear of changing cables in a system because it goes against age old theories is a bit silly no? If we held onto such old theories we would have never had such advancements in audio as we now have. Change is good

Oh please. Wire has no use other than to pass the signal. These is no hocus-pocus here. Do you really believe that in 60 years, science will have discovered new electrical parameters related to wire that will explain the difference you think are there?

Age-old theories are what are used to design and build the computer you are typing on. Strange how they are fine for that, a task infinitely more complicated than 20-20kHz audio.

[psg]

You are missing my point. I can't hear the difference between the various affordable wires that I have tried. Going from 16 AWG to 14 AWK to 12 AWG on short lengths has never really changed anything. They all sound the same. Yet people like you say I can't know for sure because I haven't tried $100 a foot wires, and people like you say those sound different. What is the probability that inexpensive wires all sound the same yet wrong, and that expensive cables that sound different yet correct?

I see your point, which is: you can only accurately speak about the cables that you have tried.

Funny. That wasn't my point and you know it.

Neither do I need to to see everything for myself to believe how it works. The earth looks flat from where I sit but I understand that it isn't.

Do more expensive cables sound different? Yes, some do. Cheap cables mostly are built around the same premise, quality copper and insulation to reject RF. The more expensive cables use all sorts of different approaches which do sound very different from ordinary Monster type cables.

Perhaps they are modifying the signal then.

So yes, I do say your wrong because you're arguing a point that you have no experience with.

I believe the science and the math behind it.

Answer this: Do you also hear differences between ordinary wire of sufficient gauge? Does wire also follow the law of diminishing returns where you can hear more differences between various ordinary wires and progressively less so with expensive wire as you converge to perfection? If so, then why do I need to have experience with the top end of wires? Shouldn't everyone hear huge differences between various cheap wires as we all do between cheap speakers?

[Hifi jim]

Answer this: Do you also hear differences between ordinary wire of sufficient gauge?

No, because in that case the comparison is between two very similar designs. My position is that it's mostly the different design elements that create a different sound.

Does wire also follow the law of diminishing returns where you can hear more differences between various ordinary wires and progressively less so with expensive wire as you converge to perfection?

All audio products I've used have followed the law of diminishing returns, cables are no exception. However, what is "perfection"? I haven't heard it in speakers or any other audio component, and I'm not sure it exists in cables either.

If so, then why do I need to have experience with the top end of wires?

You should if you wish to claim that there is no difference which has been your point of view. Hard to make a case for something without having any experience with it (and we are talking audio here, not geography, physics or mathematics).

Shouldn't everyone hear huge differences between various cheap wires as we all do between cheap speakers?

No, again: most cheap cables have a very similar design approach. More expensive designs vary greatly in their design and construction. Cables on the whole though are a very subtle change, like cd players or tubes. Some buy a tube amp and never change the tubes, other obsess over tube rolling...

[mark1101]

You imply that if you sold your Klipsch speakers and bought some other brand like the chameleon B&W............that your expensive wires would sound better.[bs]