Thanks Again and a few comments and questions new KHorns

[Cut-Throat]

John --- I think you missed the whole point --- I was making the point that some of the mod's like the Duelands are not cost efficient. My McGuyver comment was an attempt at humor and it should imply the solutions work but are not fully integated and properly engineered. That you think the majority of the suggestions on the forum represent fully engineered solutions which are cost effective --- we will part company.

The mods for the Khorn are clearly a result of a few smart guys who have fairly deep insight into some aspect of loudspeaker design who are attempting to honestly offer major improvements, but there is little evidence these are fully thought out integrated solutions.

It sounds like you know more than anyone else here. I am confused as to why you are asking us for advice.

[ClaudeJ1]

How many hours do you have on them for breaking them in? 40 hrs. is minimum IMO and 100 isn't too many before really critical listening.

Do these have the current AK-5 or AK-4 xovers?

What cartridge in your Linn?

Thanks --

Or to be more efficient, you could just put some heavy metal into a loop mode, crank up the compressed sound to a solit 110 db, and leave the house for a few hours. It will acoomplish the break in completely that way!

[AltmanEars]

Yeah it kind of sounds that way but I've gotten good information and leads and I really appreciate the tips.

I've learned this though ---

1. Many paths to better Klipsch end up with the Altec or TAD drivers attached to a horn of Altec or custom origin

2. Some of the less ambitious paths lead to mod passive x-overs with existing drivers or mod passive x-overs and new drivers

3. A number of people have had good results with active crossovers even relatively low cost digital ones...(though these pose some interesting engineering challenges)

4. For me, if I concede the TAD and Altec drivers are significantly better it is probably more cost efficient for me to enjoy the Khorns as is and sell them for a pr of Yamamoto's or Shindo's which would be fully engineered solutions.

Again sorry I totally understand how it would appear that I was not properly valuing others opinions.

[JohnA]

AltmanEars,

I guess we'll have to disagree.

My point was that almost every mod offered on this Forum was NOT cost effective, but that most were well tested, proven positive changes. There are in fact many modifications posted that are also fully engineered by real engineers.

Only a designer chooses the most expensive, highest performing part without regard to cost; an engineer does not.

[AltmanEars]

John I guess we do have a point of disagreement but thanks for your thoughts anyway. I have very little experience with engineering but I do have an engineering degree from a top school and I did work at Bell Labs at the beginning of my career before I figured out that the "Global Economy" values moving money around more than it values engineering good products.

Very little in audio is properly engineered. The cost to bring a team of material, electrical, and acoustical engineers together for a project such as finding a cost effective replacement top for a standard Klipschorn could easily morph into a multimillion dollar project. A project, I might add, which would be so expensive one could not properly amortize the development costs let alone make a profit.

Again, given my personal situation it is better to keep the Khorns "as is" , optimize the rest of the system around them and if needed replace the Khorns with what I would call a fully engineered solution using better drivers. Fortunately a number of firms have developed TAD and vintage Altec based solutions which fill this niche.

[sunnysal]

Tony I'm trying to read between the lines but it sounds like you used amps that you didnt like then triamped using a digital crossover which is likely only to work at higher volume (these devices are optimized for PA use where bit loss is not a real problem in practice --- most of them use cheap op amps etc... ) --- then went to a simpler higher quality topography and found that the sound is better.

Question is, arent you better off with a solid state amp on the bottom and a really good SET on top rather than finding a SET to run fullrange. Isnt it easier to fit a camel through a needle than to find a SET with good bass (I think I read that in the bible)

In other words if I were to run the speaker fullrange with a single amp I'd be shopping Wavelength, SOPHIA, Audionote, Cary, I might have to step up to a 211 tube amplifier... IF I was going to run the bass with SS I'd be open to Bottlehead 2A3 monoblock amps or some of the other sub $2000 offerings in the marketplace. Does that sound logical.

sorry for the huge delay in responding. I am not ruling out that improvements are possible via triamping, time alignment, better components, etc.

I had the following amps attached for the triamp set up, Tripath PWM chip amp for the tweeters, my PP 2A3 for the mids and a marantz esotec SM-6 SS amp for the bass. I tried swapping around a few things (my dynaco mkIVs for the bass), replacing the tweeters with JBL 2404hs, etc. and eventually came back to the PP 2A3 via the ALK xovers.

In the end I felt that I was getting 99% (or more) of the sound I wanted with the simpler set up. of course YMMV and better components (though the DEQX is state of tha art in audiophile xovers not a PA unit, check it out in the internet and in reviews) may make for a greater improvement HOWEVER, in the end I am enjoying music with my speakers.

I do still harbor the itch to replace the mid drivers with altecs 291s, the mid horn with altec 311s or something similar, the tweeters with my JBL 2404hs (those did sound good!) and perhaps the bass bin with some jubs...but for now...I am enjoying my "stock" khorns with simple amplification.

of course I am a heretic already since I had "shoot" outs in my home with every amp in the country (cary, levinson, krell, pass, mcintosh) and settled on my little PP2A3. I also gave up LPs for the simple reason that I felt sonic the improvement wrought from the grooves was not significant enough to warrant the trouble, CDs these days for me (and I must admit a LOT of ipod listening as well!).

I think the summary of my adivce is this, assuming you like the klipschorn basic family values (huge dynamic capabilites, extreme clarity) given the huge variance from user to user in room effects, music preferences, etc. the most bang for the buck can be reaped by auditioning different preamplifiers and amplifiers hooked up to stock khorns (or nearly stock as most would argue that there is room for cap and coil upgrades in the crossovers) in your listeing room with your music, I feel that will get one most of the way home.

best regards and let us know how your experiements develop. tony

[AltmanEars]

ThanksTony

I have heard the DEQx and a number of better analog crossovers. I still have not hooked up all the amps I own but a pattern is forming and it looks like it would be best to consign the speakers to what is termed the revolving oddity service. This is a win for Klipsch cause it means too good to sell but not good enough to listen to on a regular basis.

The mixed amplifier idea I had seems to have some running into technical issues which my better tech oriented friends dont think can be easily addressed. In short, it would appear the best multiamp passive or active implementations would be with the exact same amps. A few of the better low powered amps I have are no longer in current production and never come up for sale, I envy you if you were able to hook up 3 prs of Levinson ML2's to your Khorns as I only have one set left. Similarly I only have one Linn Klout, one Linn Klimax and one pr of Futtermans. I'm considering a Yamamoto and a set of Sophia 300B monoblocks just for fun... Passively these amps cannot address one of the major issues with the Khorn but they can improve the midrange.

I am exploring your Altec ideas through Yamamoto and Shindo who will build with these drivers and custom low order passive crossovers. This would give me the dynamics of the Klipsch with the refinement of the better drivers and allow me to use a single low cost amplifier. The attraction to Shindo and Yamamoto is due to an error I made on another totally unrelated project where I had to hedge some YEN risk, I made a slight error and ended with a small imbalance which covers either a pr of the Shindo's or a custom set of Yamamotos.