Welborne Laurel IIX Mono Blocks

[ShapeShifter]

Oh My Goodness! The Laurel IIX Mono Blocks arrived Tuesday evening. Wow! I was surprised at their weight, they're capable of causing a hernia. They have really nice Walnut Stained Bases. Cleaned and applied a little Craig DeoXit to the sockets and tube pins. Don't have a tube preamp yet, but must confess that my curiosity and enthusiasm got the better of me, so I disconnected the IC's from my Anthem Amp 1 and connected the Laurels. Connected the speaker cable from the 74 ALK Vertical Cornwalls. Powered on the Laurels waited and listened for 5 minutes, no snaps, crackles or pops. Powered on the NAD T761 w/outs to the Laurels, still dead silence. I said ten Hail Mary's first for solid state use, so please don't throw stones, I'm very near my forty-tens and no longer have the agility or mobility I once had. I loaded CD's in the Denon and let her rip. Oh S#!T, Oh Dear! The sound is far better then I anticipated, the slight graininess that I originally heard was gone, the music flowed smoothly and with far more depth. Vocals are clear with more presence. The bottom end has good impact, the solid state may be contributing more here, but one must remember the only change was the addition of the Laurels. The Cornwalls are producing a richer, smoother soundmore detail in instruments and voices within the music can be heard. The days since making the difficult decision to buy these, with my K-Horn funds. I agonized over that very decision. Well I'm very pleased I did! Been listening to them know for about four hours and I do know that they will bring far more pleasure when connected to a really nice preamp.

The hunt for a suitable tube preamp intensifies. The bar has been raised several notches!

Mike,

Tubes are GE 6AC7's, Philips JAN 6SL7WGT's, with Mullard GZ33 / GZ37 Rectifiers and TJ 300B Mesh's. You're in for a wonderful experience when your Laurels arrive. Warning! Warning! Warning! Do not connect to your Chorus II's.you'll be placed in a horrible quandary.Heresies vs. Chorus II's.

Mobile,

I obviously missed your posting on the Wright Sound WLA12 Preamp, but it is definitely on my short list. Will need to consider a Phono stage for that one. Any suggestions for tube rolling on 6AC7's & 6SL7's?

Thanks to all & forgive the ramblings.. just enthusiasm of the moment.

Wes

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 03-10-2002 at 07:05 AM

[jazman]

Wes,

I understand your enthusiasm. It rekindles your desire to listen to music everyday, as much time as posssible, and not get fired.

BTW, Wright also makes the WPL20 which has a phono stage.

Don't forget to connect the Laurels to your Belles.

Klipsch out.

[ShapeShifter]

jazman,

How true. Especially the not fired part!. Been up all night, so it will be a long day too. Have a good Team working for me though.

If my memory is correct, the WLA20 Preamp w/phono doesn't have the much prefered 6SN7 tube. I do plan to give them a call to discuss the merits of both. The Bells are in the basement, so I will have to wait until I get someone over to help bring them up. With a hand truck they are a bit much by myself.

Off to work in a few.

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 03-06-2002 at 08:34 AM

[mobile homeless]

Nothing like when you first open that box and see those amps. They are a trip back to when units were actually MADE by hand and not machine. The exude hand crafted. Those amps are about as far from the Circuit City, Best Buy, JJ Music, Crutchfield, Audio Advisor constructo drift as you can get. Simple. Nothing superfluous.

You will now be entering the area where small things make a large difference. It's an area that has meet much resistance within here from all corners.

Source, wire, placement, equipment rack, clean power etc.... the details will make a difference here as to how you will wring the last big of sound from your system. And these details can make MAJOR changes in the sound. The worst link in the chain of all above will bring down The Whole.

A good preamp is imperitive here. I think two options should be explored. Personally, I think a passive and an active tube preamp are the way to go. You will find both offer a different sonic picture and will probably enjoy each perspective. Ultimately, the good active tube preamp will win in my view but a good passive with that unit would be the cheapest step into a very high resolution sytem. You just need short interconnects of high quality.

The Philips JAN 6SL7WGT is "ok" but can be much improved. It is a relatively clean sounding tube but lacks the atmosphere and harmonic richness in other offerings. Perhaps I'll work up a few subs. I dont have as much experience with the various 6AC7. Have heard a few but have not auditioned a wide variety. I would also look into something like the Svetlana 300B or perhaps the WE since the price is coming down. Although Thorsten Loesch went gaga over the TJ offering, I think you will find the Svet or WE to perhaps offer a cleaner sound although I cant say for sure. This is just my opinion based on hearing the TJ300 2.5V version. If I had those amps, I would like to have both as they would bring different perpectives, yet again.

While there are people in here with no interest in the Single-Ended alternative, thinking they are wee little amps, I think many of you are now getting the picture that with great iron and a good circuit, the single-ended amplifier can offer a glimpse into music that is not afforded by push-pull, whether it be triode or not. The sound from a good Single-Ended design is about the absolute LARGEST sonic landscape I have heard, with a bloom and open quality offered up in a grainless fashion that makes other choices sound opaque and unrefined. And all single-ended amps are SURELY not created equal. I have had a wide variety of amp topologies in my system and love many. I will freely admit that to actually get the ABSOLUTE live listening levels, a good push-pull, quality iron circuit will get you there at those times when you need to shake the walls. However, for the majority of normal listening, even approaching VERY high volume, there is NOTHING like the sound of a single-ended design with zero feedback. The veiling and slight haze that clouds almost all pull-pull amplifiers is virtually lifted. There is more silence between the notes, less grunge, and it is the clearest picture into the music I have yet witnessed. The near complete absence of odd order distortions makes the single-ended approach using a Directly Heated Triode sound far more clear and open. The conventional push pull unit have more third harmonic and higher order distortions and these are what the human ear is most disturbed by.

I personally think the 2A3 is more clear than the 300B as it appears to be a more neutral tube. On the other hand, I love the 300B sound as well. I hope to have a 300b vs 2A3 shootout at the end of March.

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-06-2002 at 07:35 AM

[ShapeShifter]

Mobile,

Would certainly like to have the option to explore passive vs. active, but it appears I may have to move directly into an active. Audio sellers here with worthy candidates, that would allow me to A/B their wares, will have substantial markups on those items. Taking them in is an option, but showroom audition would not provide me with an adequate or accurate representation of how the combo would react within my home environment. I don't have the luxury buying both types at the moment. Did I miss something, or are you saying that their preamps that are capable of functioning as passive or active units? I do plan to make some call on both Wright Sound Preamps, as they are priced within the dollar value I'd like to spend. To your knowledge, would the line stage only WPL 12Awith 6SN7, have an advantages over the WPL20 wphono?

Yea, do recognize that I will have to consider every aspect of this systems setup very carefully as I progress. Plan to make these improvements in logical steps. Replacement power cords are very high on my list too. The previous owner strongly advised against using those standard ones for any significant length of time.

Regarding tube rolling, my thought is to just gather info on better choices, maybe buy. But keep in use with what I have in them now, which will be my benchmark. I would be better able to measure and evaluate the significance and sonic impact of other improvements as I progressed. Tube rolling would be the crème de la crème at the end of the project.

Hope this direction and progression is a logical one. I was definitely not prepared for the huge soundstage and imagining benefits that I experienced last night. Totally blew me away, never experienced that from those speakers before. Only change made to the entire system setup was connecting the SET Amps. I have never experienced such a dramatic change like that before.

Still in awe!

Wes

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

[Mike Lindsey]

Wes,

Congratulations on the Laurels! I can now hardly wait to get mine. Like you, I will have a SS preamp in the interim and will have them hooked up to the Chorus's.

As for a new phono stage, there is a AES PH-1 available right now on AudigoN. This is the same stage that I have and it has made a huge difference with my setup. It also has the same tubes as mine (2 Philips JAN 6SL7's and a Philips JAN 5814A). Here is a picture of the unit...

And here is the link...

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?preatube&1020378680

I would check to see if it is factory or Kit assembled but the price is the same as what I paid ($350). I believe the Kit was $399 and the factory price was $549. If it has a SN on the back, it was done by the factory. Mine also came with Audio One PIO coupling caps but I really don't know how much of a difference they make. I will probably upgrade with Jensen PIO's anyway.

Mike

Edit: The picture here reveals the older unit with the impedance selector. This was so it could be used with many different MM cartridges (This unit is for MM cartridges only). The newer one (2001/2002) that I own does not have the selector switch as it is fixed at 220pf/47k I believe. It sounds like the owner of this one is explaining the older model (with the selector switch) so you might want to ask him this question if interested.

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My Music Systems

This message has been edited by Mike Lindsey on 03-06-2002 at 10:37 AM

[mobile homeless]

It is VERY hard to communicate this sense of "awe" to those that will not listen or have a blocked mind on the matter. It is "hear" where I think the clarity of science and specs are abused as we have not always learned how to interpret the measurements nor how our measurements correspond to what we are hearing (The leaders in audio design these days use both science and their own hearing and auditions to develop and perfect gear). Many people hear the words 8 watts or 3.5 watt and think what you get is a clock radio with nice highs. I have grown almost impervious to this. How do you explain to someone what it is like to scuba dive or snorkel clear water on a coral reef? Can you really do it? Seems they have to see it for themselves to understand. Some are curious. some write it off without much thought.

Your single-ended amp will NOT do everything. It is not a perfect amplifier and I dont think one has been made yet. That is why I have several amps. But as I said, there is NOTHING like the open, unfettered, clear, grainless qualities of a good SET. It is the most imimate look into the music I have seen and conveys more emotion when done well then I have experienced. If you are into heavy rock and want to play at live levels, the single-ended amp will not work as well past a certain point. It will begin to show signs of strain playing Iron Man at 115dB. On the other hand, the clipping habits of a single-ended amplifier with a good power supply are second to none. Period.

As for your preamp quandry, I was suggesting something like a little Creek OBH-12 passive to have on hand as it's only $150 or so used. IT will give you amazing, World Class transparency if you use good wire (with meter or less IC). IT is nice to have around. But ultimately, I think a REALLY good tube preamp will fit your needs best. I still use both and switch depending on mood. If you cant find a good tube preamp on the used market right now, the Creek or similar passive is an option. I use my active tube preamp about 70% of the time or more, however.

The Wright Sound preamp is one of the best NEW preamp deals. I think it works very well with SET. You used to see them used every once in awhile but I havent seen one recently. I prefer to buy most of my gear used and the preamp is not exception. On the other hand, sometimes the wait is hard.

The WLA 12A vs the new WPL-20 is something I am looking into. I have not heard the WPL-20 as it is really new. Mike Lindsey, as you know, is in the same boat as well. Are you looking for a phono built in to your unit?

btw, I didnt find the power cord change via my Moondogs as beneficial as I thought. Did you ask him what power cords he was using?

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-06-2002 at 11:22 AM

[DrPyro]

Wes-

When ordering the Laurels, did you have to specify factory assembled? The reason i ask, is i thought they were kits and nowhere on the website do they say add $XXX for factory assembled. Or are only the nekid versions kits and all of the others are factory assembled?

Thanks for the info

-Dave

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Home Theater

[mobile homeless]

The Welborne single-ended amplifiers came factory wired or as a kit up until March of last year. In other words, there are quite a few factory wired units floating around as they were made for quite a few years. Ron Welborne opted to stop the factory wired amps so he could focus on his new amplifier line from his second company Moondog Audio.

If interested in ANYTHING from Welborne Labs used, be SURE to inquire whether it was factory wired. IF a kit, it is FAR better to know the skill and experience of the builder. Some were made by meticulous builders and others by FIRST timers. I will say that most attempt the Welborne LAbs kits after other attempts due to the expense of the parts with the kit.

Still, keep the builder in mind. This is a very important point. Also, be aware of the parts contained, getting specifics. There are not very many parts here and what is used DOES have a serious impact on the sound.

kh

ps- I know a lot of you are focusing on the 300B. Dont forget the 2A3. IT still believe the 2A3 has BETTER bass than the 300B, even though the power is less than half! IT is a very nice tube. Also, there are OTHER very nice 2A3 and 300B amps out there. And on a final not, building a GOOD 2A3 or 300B amp is the easiest amp to build. The transformers are the most expensive part, sometime costing more than many would pay for a amp. But there is the potential to make an amp that would compete with commercial makes in the 3-10K range depending. Another good aspect about the 2A3 amp is the Sovtek 2A3 which is a nice tube and CHEAP at 50-60 a matched pair (and a pair is ALL you need).

Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-06-2002 at 11:35 AM

[Mike Lindsey]

Pyro,

Wes and I both bought used Laurel's from AudiogoN. I believe both of ours were kits and not assembled at the factory (I know mine was a kit and have spoken with the gentleman that made mine). If you are interested in the Laurels or Moondogs, Welborne Labs is having a pretty substantial sale on them for 7 days starting next Monday. Here is the link with the pricing...

http://www.welbornelabs.com/7daysale.htm

Mike

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My Music Systems

[ShapeShifter]

Mike,

I do like the AES PH-1 and strongly consider it should line stage preamp get the nod. I recall the positive praises it receives. For me the DJH version is likely more unit than I need for now. Would rather put the dollars above the standard phono stage cost toward a good pre.

Mobile,

I'm with you on the role of passive and active preamps being avail now. Makes sense and provides the best of both worlds. As you know by know, I have no problem buying good used equipment. I have gotten great deals on a lot of audio gear. Try to use good judgement and pertinent questions to seller. I bail if responses are vague or questions ignored. I've searched for ads on the SWLA 12A nothing has surfaced. I've also had some discussions with two Cary SLP-98P sellers. Really like that preamp, but budget wise, it would take beyond the dollars I want to spend, $800-1400.00 max. That range should give me room for a very decent line and phono new, if I have to go that route. More bang for buck if used. The seller told me he was using the Synergistic Master Couplers power cords with a Vendetta Research SPA2B phono stage. Point noted on the power cord.

Going to try and contain my enthusiasm, do I don't bore the heck out of others.

Wes

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

[mobile homeless]

That sale by Welborne is the first time he has offered to factory wire these units in a year. If anyone is interested or wants advice on parts to chose, drop me an email.

Shapeshifter, dont contain your enthusiasm! It is what gets people excited by audio online. Let us know what you are hearing and feeling about your new purchase; I dont think anyone is bored - Of course, there is always that honeymoon period...

kh

[ShapeShifter]

DrPyro,

Mine were assembled as stated. There are very good buys to be had in used equipment. But follow the advice given and you're less likely to have an unpleasant experience. Non of us are immune though. I've bowed out on many an intended purchase because the seller's responses did not adequately address my questions and concerns. I've also assisted some first time sellers in making both our experiences pleasant ones. They were usually up front and honest about their knowledge or selling practices. Minimize Risk.

mobile,

Thanks for the positive reinforcement.

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

[Mike Lindsey]

Wes,

Please show your enthusiasm. It gets me very excited about wanting to hear my own amps.

I know you have good gear already and to hear you say you are hearing things thru your speakers (CW's no less) that you had never heard before, is very reassuring about my own purchase.

Keep the accolades flowing...

Mike

[jazman]

Wes,

I'm not bored! Tell me more!

Brings back to mind what I have experienced and I'm still experiencing with my 2A3 Moondogs. It's pure delight to listen to the music each and every day and night. Can you tell the honeymoon is not over with the Moondogs, and I don't expect it to anytime soon.

So tell me More............

Mobile,

I'm thankful it did not require much to convince me to first discover what 14 wpc PP could do. I never worried about what 3.5 wpc could do when dealing with the 104db efficiency of the Belles. I don't think many could sit down in my listening area and have a clue that their experience was being presented by the 3.5 wpc of the 2A3 Moondogs.

One day, more will believe.

Klipsch out.

[edster00]

I get great pleasure out of inviting friends over and I always ask them to bring a couple of their favorite CD's. I'll put a CD in the old player with the volume down pretty low and ask them how it sounds. Almost to the person they say something like "WOW I can hear things that I never knew were in that recording" etc. Then I gradually turn the volume up...and up...and up. Everyone has been very impressed with the system, from the size of the Khorns, the look of the tube amps and of course the sound. The best part is they invariably ask me how many watts my amps are. I love to tell them "3...well actually 3½"!

Congratulations on the Laurels!! I know they will bring you many years of enjoyment.

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2 Channel System:

'78 Khorns w/ALK networks

Welborne Labs Moondog 2A3 amps

AES AE-3 Superpreamp DJH mods

McIntosh MCD 7007 CD

McIntosh MR-78 Tuner

DIYCable Twisted Cross Connects

DIYCable Superlatives (preamp/amp)

DH Labs Silver Pulse interconnects (sources/preamp)

f>

s>

This message has been edited by edster00 on 03-06-2002 at 06:33 PM

[ShapeShifter]

Mike/jazman/edster00,

Thanks all. My butt's really dragging now after having stayed up all night. Relief from the apprehension of the decision and the delight in what I was hearing, confirmed itYea, it was a good decision. Jazman's journey to his ultimate Moondog setup helped tremendously, especially with Cpt. Mobile at the helm. Listening to ed talk about the joys of Moondogs and Klipschorns, then Randy's comments regarding his Laurels. Each post was an inspiration to me, peaking my curiosity. Had hoped Mike's would have arrived first which would have lesson my agonizing decision.

It's eerie hearing that large musical presence for the first time. The sense that the speakers are no longer their, the room presents the music. That's the kind of illusion I can gladly live with. Mobile's Eico HF-81 comments jump started another SET convert. Think I need to go get some rest now...ok, one more CD.

Regards to all,

Wes

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

[ShapeShifter]

I'm giving a lot of consideration to the preamps listed below. On Tuesday, I placed a call to Wright Sound in reference to the WPL20, because I could not find a lot of info on this unit. I was curious as to why 12SN7's were used in lieu of the much revered 6NS7 tube. Also, wanted to know previous preamp(s) were comparable to the WPL20. Was told that I would get a call back. Well I received a call back late this afternoon, to my surprise it was George Wright himself. George informed me the WPL20 is a recent release. He says it contains the best features of their WPP100C phono preamp and their, WLA12A line preamp, with additional upgrades to; P2P wiring, single volume control w/shunt control an the upgraded power supply are a few mentioned. He also emphasized the fact that it was phase correct, contained a switchable tape loop, phono equalization for RIAA and could play the old 78's. He was so pleasant and informative that I almost forgot my tube question. He said the they chose to use the 12SN7 tube primarily because of availability. Which would benefit the user cost wise as well, as that tube is widely available. He then stated, however, customers have the option to request an Adjustable Crossover be installed, then users can utilize 6SN7 or the 12SN7 tubes. He's was very helpful, did lead the conversation, offered comments/suggestions when I asked, never favoring or pushing his products. I was impressed and thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. He's very passionate about audio!

Thought I'd share the above info with those interested. Listed by price. Wes

Line/Phono Stages

Wright Sound WPL20 - New: $1250.00 - ((1) 6X4, (1)6FY7, (2) 12SN7GT, (3) ECC82/12AU7, (4) 6FH5/FY5). AdJ Crossover Option for use of 2 x 6SN7's ($50.00).

Cary Audio SLP 98P: New: $3500.00 - (4 x 6SN7, 2 x 12AX7, 2 x 12AU7). Super reviews as one would expect of a Cary product. Did note that there were many references to the unit as being very warm, but still open w/clarity, in the mid/upper range.

Line Stage:

Wright Sound WLA12A - New: $800.00 - (2 x 6SN7, 1 x 6EM7, 1 x 6X5) Tube rectified.

AE-3 DJH Super Preamp: New: $1200.00 - (2 x 6SN7), 1 x 6CA4) Tube rectified.

Blue Circle BC21: New: $1500.00 - (2 x 6SN7) Not Tube rectified

I've seen very good reviews and press on each line stage unit.

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

[mobile homeless]

George Wright is a very nice guy and will go out of his way to make his customers happy. There is, however, one problem with Wright Sound that they have trouble addressing.

George WRight and his wife actually have full time jobs and run Wright Sound as a side business. In other words, many times they will be behind in getting back to customers and meeting orders. Many dont realize this and complain. I urged a friend of mine in Chapel Hill, NC to purchase the 2A3 3.5 Monoblocks and the WLA12A preamp. He didnt get the order for over three months and was a bit upset when it arrived as it was wired with an European plug! George was very embarrassed and got the correct unit out, but the wait was VERY long. Others have complained about how hard it is to reach the Wrights and the resonse time to emails. One must understand the idea that this is actually a second business and with a full time job, things can get tough. Always CALL him instead of emailing. That is a key.

That being said, they make a great product for the money although I will be the first to admit the Wright gear is not loaded with boutique parts or anything. I do like their 2A3 amps and the little WLA12A preamp sounds very nice as held its own against the over $5K Joule Electra LA100 MkIII. In fact, it sounded a touch more musical to me. The guy at the shop was rather dumbfounded as well.

If you happen to see the little Wright used, it's a great buy. And at $800 new, it's a great deal as well. I have always also thought that things could be done to make the Wrights do even better, especially the amps. A few mods and cap/part changes would be interesting. All their gear employs MagneQuest transformers which are fine units.

BTW, right now, there is a Cary SLP-98 for sale USED on Audiogon WITH phono. Run take a look if interested.

kh

Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-07-2002 at 07:14 PM

[NOSValves]

Sounds me like they should hire some help !!! There getting pretty good money for those Amps aren't they ? They should at the very least hire someone to take care of customer relations and before a sale is made make it clear that there is a 2 or 3 month or whatever it maybe back log.

I don't want to make this a Issue. But in my business when I contract a job I make it clear when I will start and when I will finish and during my busy season its nothing for me to be up till 12/1:00 doing paper work and contacting my customers to keep them up to date on there Project.

Sounds to me like they maybe great people but aren't very smart as the customer relation end of the business.

Craig