V-TRAC thoughts

[frt8dog]

I don't post that often, but wanted to share some thoughts. I bought my first Klipsch product back in 1982 in Phoenix, AZ. I was going through school out there and always wanted a stereo since I was a kid. I eventually ended up at Jerry's Audio and bought some Cornwalls. The day I picked them up some guy was there by the name of Paul W. Klipsch. Wow! We talked for hours in the store and so began my journey with the Klipsch sound. I always remember his piercing eyes from behind his glasses...I enjoyed the time we spent together. Love that Klipsch sound! I packed them up in the car and off to the dorm I went...trying to crack the cement walls was always fun with the volume control! (still have the Cornwalls) Since then I've picked up over the years, many other Heritage products. I have a house with music all the time. I'm truly thankful. Back in 2001 I finally picked up a pair of used K-horns.

I love the sound...clean, crisp (although at times edgy/harsh/shrill), detailed with all the bass slam I enjoy. I eventually, through this forum, sent my drivers K55V/K77 to Bob Crites along with my AA crossovers for the overhaul. The K-horns were '78's unfinished birch and I enjoyed finishing them myself...even sent the pictures to Trey Cannon for the museum. I got the drivers back and installed them...great improvement in sound, but when I cranked the system it still had the harshness/shrillness, although not as bad (had the K400 metal horn). I use all McIntosh gear (C2200/MC2102/MCD205 and at times George Wright 300B/2A3 amps...God rest his soul). So I enjoyed them but still had some issues in regards to the upper end brightness. I did the room treatment thing also, bought some panels and did up the room real nice. It helped but still had the edginess. Then I read about theTrachorn upgrade from AL Klappenberger and all the debate in regards to driver/graphs/data. It was quite interesting. Anyway, I eventually bought and installed the Trachorn/Universal crossover. It was a wonderful improvement in sound... thanks Al for a great product! I still had the shrillness at high volumes which I could live with because everything else was there I liked in the sound. I still retained the K55V driver along with the K77 tweeter with Als' upgrade. That was a few years ago. Recently the edgy/shrillness was really bothering me (age?) and was considering selling the K-horns...but reason prevailed. I knew if I sold them I'd regret it.

I called Klipsch parts and got a quote for a driver/crossover upgrade. They were very courteous and helpful...thanks Klipsch! I noticed that the drivers were still the same after all these years. Also I started reading on this forum about the V-Trac by Greg Roberts. It might be what I've been looking for, because my experience was very much like Greg's in regards to the harshness/shrillness at certain volumes. Maybe it's my hearing but I've always noticed it (harshness/edginess) in my other Heritage products. I called Greg and eventually after much internal debate I ordered his upgrade (V-Trac horn/BMS driver/Beyma driver/Crites woofer, I kept Als' Universal crossover)

Now, I must confess I'm not an engineer. You could put numbers, charts, graphs and plots etc. in front of me and they wouldn't make any sense. To me what does the change sound like? Does it bring me closer to the music, is there an emotional connection with the music, does it sound like the real thing, do the voices flow from the speaker, how about the soundstage, do the instruments have that separation in the midst of the music or are they congested/cluttered? I think you get the picture. Also, for me, is the shrillness gone at higher volumes? For me the upgrade does all the above and more. Even my wife and son who aren't as anal as me, when they listened, were very impressed with the smoothness and increased detail in the music. My wife likes Patsy Cline and country music, she noticed an improvement/clarity in the background vocals that she has never heard before (myself included). It's like the background vocals now have moved forward into the soundstage and are presented with more clarity and weight. Also she said it sounded bigger, more open and you're able to pick out the individual instruments. My son commented that there is "more" of the music there compared to the "other" system (Trachorn). The bottom line is more enjoyment in your listening experience, which to me is what it's all about. Is it expensive, yes, but only a little more for what the Klipsch upgrade would have been. I believe after going from stock drivers to the Als' Trachorn with rebuilt stock drivers to Gregs' upgrade was a move I do not regret.

In regards to the mid range driver. The K55V is a 1" (3/4"?) driver whereas the BMS is a 2" driver. I think Al has done tests and plotted graphs comparing the drivers, which I think is wonderful and helpful for those who can read them. I can't make any sense of them, never could, but what I'm hearing is what I'm hearing. There is more detail, more separation of instuments, more background vocals. It's difficult to discribe, but it's just "more" of the music, compared to the 1" driver. I think the tests prove otherwise, but my experience in listening, my ears tell me there's more of it (music). It's more not only at low volumes but also at higher volumes (within reason) with no edginess.

One final comment. It's been quite a journey for me and it's been enjoyable. My thanks to Al Klappenberger, Bob Crites and Greg Roberts for all there help over the years. Also a big thank you to Klipsch and Amy Unger (never met...maybe someday) for making this all possible. I'm a guest of Klipsch when I post on their forum and they allow me into their "house". They could very easily shut me down, stifle opinions...but they allow debate and after market changes to there products...so I completely understand their point of view as a company. I'd like to thank "Edgar" who posted on another thread. He helped me understand what's going on maybe with my experience. You can measure a lot of "stuff" but it eventually comes down to a pair of ears and concensus (hopefully I got that right Edgar). It's difficult to put into words what you subjectively experience, I guess that's why the engineers like numbers...they don't lie and you can measure changes. I hope my thoughts made sense to folks, sorry about it's length, but I felt compelled to type what my experience has been over the years. Maybe it can help someone with a similar experience. I'm still a loyal Klipsch fan and always will be. Mr. Klipsch left a memory I really can't forget so many years ago and for that I'm truly grateful. I guess he lives on in our hearts and minds and of course in the "Klipsch Sound". Respectfully submitted. Frt8dog (John)

[jwc]

Just a thought......did you ever consider putting an "equivalent cost driver" on the Trachorn?

I would agree that the tractrix midhorns sound very good. More and more people are getting into this.....

I'm wondering if anyone can tell a difference between all of them with a similar cost drivers.

I had La Scala II's for a little while and loved them. I have to painfully admit that the midrange was where I started to feel a lack of appreciation. I didn't want to crack open that top section...I ultimately sold them.

jc

[frt8dog]

jc,

I thought about it but decided I really wanted to try the 2" driver. I'm going to try another mid range driver in my Belles eventually. I'm not sure if anyone has compared them, but it would be an interesting comparison. I understand your lack of appreciation for the mid range in the LaScala II, maybe it's not my age/hearing after all...John

[BE36]

Very well written, there is something to be said for the Quality of posts vs. Quantity.

I think one of the huge holes in the Heritage line is the K-77 tweeter. I have listened to 800s B&Ws in the same room as 60th K-Horns. K-Horns fill the room with bass B&W have highs that sound almost live, while the K-77 tweeter will not even play them at an audible level.

Fastracs, Vtracs, Trachorns are all invited to Build Your Own La Scala II Split Top Spring Training. Fastracs are on Deck/order.

[kevinmi]

Just a thought......did you ever consider putting an "equivalent cost driver" on the Trachorn?

I would agree that the tractrix midhorns sound very good. More and more people are getting into this.....

I'm wondering if anyone can tell a difference between all of them with a similar cost drivers.

I had La Scala II's for a little while and loved them. I have to painfully admit that the midrange was where I started to feel a lack of appreciation. I didn't want to crack open that top section...I ultimately sold them.

jc

I'm not sure what you mean by "similar cost drivers", but I can tell you this: I have a pair of home made tractrix horns for driven by K-55's, and they sound great. I built a larger 2' tractrix horn and am using Selenium drivers that only cost $125.00 each. They sound excellent. Much more open than the 1" driver/horn combo. I believe the size of the horn plays a large role in the overall sound. I've never heard Greg's trachorns with the $500.00 drivers, so I can't say weather his sounds better than mine or vice versa. All I know is a big horn sounds better than a small horn. Just my 2 cents.

[jwc]

Yes....you see my point.

The bigger horn does have a bigger sound.....that jumps out and draws appeal.

My 223Hz tractrix horn with the JBL 2" 2446 were just amazing.

I think all the pure tractrix midhorns would be on the same playing field except for their size. Obviously "shape" of area expansion could play a role too.

An interesting test would be to compare a 2" vs 1" tractrix midhorn with an Fc of about 260 with "similar cost" drivers. Not a K55 vs anything else as there really isn't a comparible 2" version that I'm aware of. More of a comparison would be a driver from the same line from the same manufacturer.....with similar cost.

If I'm not mistaken, didn't you build the Big Tractrix with an Fc of 200Hz? If that is what you were referring to, then that would be a different playing field than the standard 1" tractirx midhorn such as those with home brewed with an Fc of around 260 or maybe even the Trachorn from ALK.

I like the mid tractrix. My point is just one of Tractix mids is tractrix mids....but the cost of the driver is gonna seperate the differences quite a bit......then there is the argument of the size 2" vs 1". This poses the question then.........why not spend for a nice 1" driver on say the Trachorn vs moving on to a 2" horn with the same cost driver. That would be a nice test........basically knowing where the money is best spent.

jc

[Invidiosulus]

Currently drawing up some plans for some tractrix horns that curve on both axis.

Thinking about casting em out of concrete.

Not sure when I'll get the time to build em...

-Josh

[jwc]

Josh. That would be a cool project.

What are your thoughts of why "curving" in two axis will offer any improvement in sound?

What are your thoughts of the round tractrix horns versus rectangular or square?

jc

[CIGARBUM]

If I ever get all this stuff put back together I will have the ability to test: ALK trachorn with the following, K-55, GPA 902-16 and JBL 2470, all one inch. I don't have many 2" drivers, the 260hz is going in the Khorns with the JBL 2446, the only other 2" I have is a JBL 2440.

Maybe need to wail till " The Event"

CigaarBum

[jwc]

Yes....we will be in horn overload....

I'm ready

jc

[aj01]

I've been reading some woodworking articles and thinking that if you had a vacuum press and a form - you could make shaped horns. I'll probably get there eventually (would like to make a tractrix mid-bass).

Have you heard of the Stereo Lab horns?

[jwc]

I've been reading some woodworking articles and thinking that if you had a vacuum press and a form - you could make shaped horns. I'll probably get there eventually (would like to make a tractrix mid-bass).

Have you heard of the Stereo Lab horns?

Yes I have. Those are reasonably priced too. I wonder if they are pure tractrix or is there some mod in there. Have been tempted to buy the small round ones for tweeters.

jc

[Invidiosulus]

JC,

No solid reasons, but I think it would be interesting to try and make a midhorn without the flat side so that both axis curve to provide a smoother release to the air in the room.

Once a mold is made dealing with the curved sides wouldn't be hard.

I've not heard any of the round horns although I've thought about building some so I could.

I guess the good thing about the round horns would be the lack of flat surfaces to cause reflections within the horn itself.

They would also have an even dispersion pattern, I don't know if that's good or bad but I still want to try some one of these days.

As far as the concrete horns go, I was intrigued/inspired by the ones Marco Henry made for Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h,

http://www.arduman.com/aa/Sayfalar/lecleach/lecleach.htm

I must say I like trying different horns out on the Heresy's as I don't have to make them as big as if I had some bigger bass bins

I still need to finish my hyperbolic horns for my K-55V's before I make more tractrix horns.

Oh yeah,

We are also about to have baby number 2(marvel's grandbaby #3) any day now.

That and the weather making it cold in my shop pretty much guarantee I won't be making any progress until the spring.

-Josh

[jwc]

I guess the good thing about the round horns would be the lack of flat surfaces to cause reflections within the horn itself.

They would also have an even dispersion pattern, I don't know if that's good or bad but I still want to try some one of these days.

Interesting points......

My take on this.....totally rookie here and presumption.....

everything reflects...the big deal to me would be reflect onto parallel surfaces.....which shouldn't happen with constant vertical expansion unles the vertical expansion is very slow.......just a thought...nothing I've proved...

Also...."even dispersion". Not sure how curved on both has anything to do with dispersion vs the constant vertical expansion. Also....I'm under the presumption that the sound bubble doesn't know. If there is tractrix expansion, then how does it matter.

I was thinking you would say something about the close to "round" the better the "bubble". Some have argued that and someone would have to prove that to me from my ear standpoint....not necessarily a measurement.... We have our kids blow bubbles through a round piece of plastic......why.... have given thought to the differences there.

My biggest take on all this would be to make a change to have an effect on polars or directivity. Not sure making all planes curved would do that....I'm thinking a change in shape.

We should start doing crude polars....say build a square horn vs a rectangle and keep everything else the same. Edgar did this but was to prove a different point.....not polars.....

Just throwing out thinking here....no proof obviously...

jc

[Invidiosulus]

I think what I was intending to say was that by monkeying with the top and bottom walls I would be able to have them curve as well in an attempt to reduce edge difraction at the mouth of the horn, obviously to keep the tractrix area expansion correct this will alter the w/h ratio of the mouth.

Ideally it seems you would have a smooth transition at the mouth on the vertical as well as horizontal walls.

Something I find interesting about the Le Cleac'h spreadsheet(attached in a .zip) is that it calculates the expansion past 90 degrees to give you the needed roundover although it only calculates for square 1:1 or round.

Also...."even dispersion". Not sure how curved on both has anything to
do with dispersion vs the constant vertical expansion. Also....I'm
under the presumption that the sound bubble doesn't know. If there is
tractrix expansion, then how does it matter.

What I meant by even dispersion is that there is no top or bottom or left or right or even an in between to the round horns, the polars would be uniform for a given angle off axis whether vertical or horizontal or some combination.

Agreed on the need for polar measurements.

I hope to at some point obtain some measuring equipment.

In lieu of an anechoic chamber I do have the soccer field across from my house.

- Josh

cylind.zip

cylind.zip

cylind.zip

[greg928gts]

I think aesthetically it would look nice to have all four sides curve, especially if it was a square horn.

I sure miss being able to show the forum what I'm working on and the discussions that follow.

Greg

[kevinmi]

I think aesthetically it would look nice to have all four sides curve, especially if it was a square horn.

I sure miss being able to show the forum what I'm working on and the discussions that follow.

Greg

Greg, I sure miss reading about your latest projects also. I get a lot of my inspiration for my own projects from reading about yours. I hope you will post your latest creations on your website so we all can benefit from your research and knowledge. -kevin

[Carbon_66]

I sure miss being able to show the forum what I'm working on and the discussions that follow.

Greg

We all miss your posts.

Everybody wants the "perfect" set-up, whether it be a fresh, out of the box reference system, or a highly modified heritage 2 channel. The end result is the same.

I want 2 La Scalas with Heresys for the center and the rear. I need to know what crossover points to use, What's the best mid driver? How do I reduce resonance in an earlier La Scala cabinet? Are the laser logos really worth that much? This forum is a wealth of information that gives me some insight on where to start.

There are a lot of old Klipsch speakers that have been revived due to this forum. Look at all of the new members with a few posts asking what they have, or what they are worth. Many have been restored to their original prominance.

I want to see more build threads. I want to see more modifications. I want to see more pictures. I want to see more graphs.

It's like a '57 Chevy, some like it bone stock. Others like it with an Ls-7 with Vette suspension. Either way, Chevrolet wins. Exposure.

I'm on other non audio boards that can kill a page in one section in hours. I understand that this is a niche board, but the current restraints only inhibit growth.

If we're only going to talk about "what is the best center for my RF-35's", just pull the plug.

Greg