Ethanol in 2 Cycle Engines

[Tarheel]

I've been having problems with Stihl, Echo, and Poulan gas powered yard equipment. The carburetor in the Stihl blower had do be rebuilt after 6 months of use. The shop said the culprit is my fuel...gas with ethanol. Two shops cautioned me about this saying ethanol dissolves the rubber engine parts and gums up the carburetor. Now not all gas has ethanol but not all pumps are so marked either. My rather expensive solution is to buy premixed gas in 32 oz cans for $3.99. Works well in all my equipment and contains a fuel stabelizer and the 50-1 mix. Rather pricey.

Anyone else have this ethanol problem?

[oldtimer]

Oops. Never mind, lawnmower has gas engine not oil/gas mix 2 stroke.

[russ69]

Ethanol or methanol is a pain in the butt. The fuel absorbs water (from the air) and it's also corrosive, we have a lot of 10 percent mixes out here in California. However unless your equipment is really old it should handle the mix without problems. The biggest problem we have is that the new gasolines are not very stable and they deteriorate after just 30 days. If your carb is getting gunked up, it's because of the fuel breakdown. I would recommend to use regular grade gas from a high volume station and you'll have the freshest gas available, some fuel stabilizer will help if your can sits unused for long periods of time.

Thanx, Russ

[Tarheel]

Thanks Russ[]

[theplummer]

Here's a foolproof tip to avoid this problem all together.

Go to your local airport and buy thier avgas. It does not contain any alcohol in it. Seems a little pricy, until you have to pay for the rebuild or have to perform that kind of maintenance. The fuel does not break down over time either.

Seems like $4.00 per gallon is the going rate right now in our area. Also, Oil will mix in avgas just fine, and don't worry about the increased octane, your small engines will run fine on it.

[Tarheel]

Thank you Sir....another good idea.

[Coytee]

Here's a foolproof tip to avoid this problem all together.

Go to your local airport and buy thier avgas. It does not contain any alcohol in it. Seems a little pricy, until you have to pay for the rebuild or have to perform that kind of maintenance. The fuel does not break down over time either.

Seems like $4.00 per gallon is the going rate right now in our area. Also, Oil will mix in avgas just fine, and don't worry about the increased octane, your small engines will run fine on it.

I could not agree more. One issue might be if your local airport will actually sell it to you. I used to get some out here at a little place and my (bad) memory says he told me they are not supposed to dispense their fuel into 5gal containers. I have no idea if he was bs'ing me or not. He did it every time I went out there.

Second, I don't know about seals going bad. If your seals are fine with the blend of gas then one thing to do is run your machine dry when you are done with it. When I winterize my string trimmer (Husky) or my chainsaw (Stihl) the last time I use them I'll intentionally let them run out of gas or I'll dump the gas back into can at home & run the carb dry.

I've had my saw/trimmer for maybe 8-10 years now and other than a spark plug.... have had zero issues. I might add that I no longer get the avgas, I go to a station where they have seperate pumps for regular/premium and I only buy premium. No way will I buy premium gas out of a pump that uses the same filler hose for the various mixes. I'm sure that hose will hold a gallon of what ever was last used (which is what will dispense into my container) and I'll be paying a premium price. Seperate pumps for me or I'll go to the next station until I find one with seperate pumps. My wife thinks I'm retentive.

He's also right on the octane. You probably know this but 2-strokes pretty much have the attitude of the higher the octane the better. I learned that years ago with my dirt bike. It was amazing to me the difference it would run with premium gas mixed in it verses the avgas mix. Much of the burbling at high rpm's was either gone or under much better control with the higher octane.

I wonder if you'd have better luck for a while simply running your carbs dry when done?

[theplummer]

Here's a foolproof tip to avoid this problem all together.

Go to your local airport and buy thier avgas. It does not contain any alcohol in it. Seems a little pricy, until you have to pay for the rebuild or have to perform that kind of maintenance. The fuel does not break down over time either.

Seems like $4.00 per gallon is the going rate right now in our area. Also, Oil will mix in avgas just fine, and don't worry about the increased octane, your small engines will run fine on it.

I could not agree more. One issue might be if your local airport will actually sell it to you. I used to get some out here at a little place and my (bad) memory says he told me they are not supposed to dispense their fuel into 5gal containers. I have no idea if he was bs'ing me or not. He did it every time I went out there.

Second, I don't know about seals going bad. If your seals are fine with the blend of gas then one thing to do is run your machine dry when you are done with it. When I winterize my string trimmer (Husky) or my chainsaw (Stihl) the last time I use them I'll intentionally let them run out of gas or I'll dump the gas back into can at home & run the carb dry.

I've had my saw/trimmer for maybe 8-10 years now and other than a spark plug.... have had zero issues. I might add that I no longer get the avgas, I go to a station where they have seperate pumps for regular/premium and I only buy premium. No way will I buy premium gas out of a pump that uses the same filler hose for the various mixes. I'm sure that hose will hold a gallon of what ever was last used (which is what will dispense into my container) and I'll be paying a premium price. Seperate pumps for me or I'll go to the next station until I find one with seperate pumps. My wife thinks I'm retentive.

He's also right on the octane. You probably know this but 2-strokes pretty much have the attitude of the higher the octane the better. I learned that years ago with my dirt bike. It was amazing to me the difference it would run with premium gas mixed in it verses the avgas mix. Much of the burbling at high rpm's was either gone or under much better control with the higher octane.

I wonder if you'd have better luck for a while simply running your carbs dry when done?

DANGER Will Robinson!!! Be VERY careful when running a two cycle engine out of gas. Remember, the only lubricant that a oil mix style engine, (STHIL has some 4 stroke engines that still use oil mix), gets is from the gasoline. As the engine runs lean and runs out of fuel, two potentially damaging things can happen. the lack of oil on the cage bearings on the crankshaft are all of a sudden deprived of oil and can score. The other thing is that while the engine runs out of fuel, the mixture leans out causing excessive heat on the top of the pistons and may cause detonation. This is bad because the aluminum piston can become pitted from melting aluminum in small areas on the top of the piston, actually causing the piston to develop hot spots on top of it. VERY BAD.

I'd sooner see you go to a Marine store and buy a can of OMC brand top end storage oil. When you put the engine away, run it while spraying the can into the intake, which coats everything and floods the engine out, therefore protecting everything in it during storage.

[oldtimer]

I used to as a matter of procedure run my outboard dry when putting the boat away in Honolulu. The theory was the greater danger was leaving fuel in the system was worse for the engine, like the gunk issue reported here. Never had a problem doing this. Of course the engine was water cooled by drawing water through as it ran, so over heating should not have been a problem.

Oh yeah, water used during this process was fresh to clean the salt water from the system.

[theplummer]

I used to as a matter of procedure run my outboard dry when putting the boat away in Honolulu. The theory was the greater danger was leaving fuel in the system was worse for the engine, like the gunk issue reported here. Never had a problem doing this. Of course the engine was water cooled by drawing water through as it ran, so over heating should not have been a problem.

Oh yeah, water used during this process was fresh to clean the salt water from the system.

All I can say is that your luckier than I. I Had a $8000.00 race motor on my boat that the builder had the timing on the carb butterflies off by a fraction of an inch. Two of the six carb throttle plates were holding the other four blades open slightly, causing the top four cylinders to go lean. This caused the top of the pistons to heat up to a point that the motor revved up to over 8000 rpm's and shutting the key off did nothing. Imagine. The motor kept revving out of control. The only thing I could do was shut off the electric fuel pump. Starved the engine of oil and caused a catastrophic failure.

I know this is an extreme example, but detonation is a VERY serious thing. Also, the lubricating abilites of oil that has gasoline in it is greatly diminished anyway. By running an engine dry that has gasoline mixed in the lubricating oil caused the oil to wash off the bearings therefore causing the bearings to scrape on the races, ultimately scoring the bearings and races. Continued practices of this can't be healthy in the long run.

[oldtimer]

I was born lucky.

[Coytee]

Wow Plummer, that really sucks. I've never had a known issue yet (knocking on wood). I know of some circles of people that this process is fairly common place and always recommended (doesn't guarantee that it's right though)

When I've run my items dry they are idled or revved up a bit to kill them. I don't want to call it controlled conditions, but compared to using them to cut a tree, blow my walks (I forgot to add my backpack blower) and running out of fuel while under load, I usually run them dry under more controlled situation.

Maybe (hopefully) I've had some Lady Luck shine my way too.

[tuned4life]

For the first time in 8 years my Jonsered saw wouldn't start. I had a huge tree down across my driveway. Time wasn't on my side because it was snowing hard. I ended up buying a new professonal 50cc Husquavarnas. By the time I got home the tree was under a foot of snow. The chainsaw dealer eventually rebuilt the Jonsered carb and said ethanol was the problem.

[theplummer]

If you can't get AVGAS from your local airport, their is another option, but it's expensive. My local STIHL dealership is now carrying pre-mix fuel in quart or gallon size cans. It's about $12.00 per gallon here though.

His recomendation is to use local 87 octane ethanol all summer long, but when you go to put your small engines away for the season, on your last use for the season, use the expensive fuel to protect it for the winter. My problem is, I never know exactly how long my chainsaw, pole saw, and other small engines are going to be put up for the season, so I like the AVGAS option.

One more note, out of all the years, that I have not taken my advice on AVGAS, I still have NEVER Had to rebuild a carb due to schellacking of the carb from poor fuel. I have a little trick that has always worked.

Usually the reason an engine won't work due to poor fuel is a schellack builds up between the needle and seat in the float bowl of the carb. The needle valve becomes stuck to the seat, effectively making the float in the bowl not able to drop to open it up to allow new fuel into the float bowl. Usually a sharp rap from a plastic handled screw driver on the side of the carb float bowl is enough to jar the needle valve from the seat, therefore allowing new fuel into the carb. Neat thing is, once new fuel gets into the carb, the new gas dissolves the schellack build up, effectively cleaning itself.

At most, I have had to remove the bowl and actually wash the needle valve and seat, but a major carb rebuild has never been necessary. Just be careful about the bowl to carb gasket when removing, as if you tear that, most small carb manufactures won't sell you just a bowl gasket, you have to buy the entire kit, if you can find one. Sometimes with vintage engines, you have to actually make a gasket out of either a sheet of cork, a coffee can lid, or a shoe box lid, depending on what is necessary. (Talk about tedious work!)

[theplummer]

One issue might be if your local airport will actually sell it to you. I used to get some out here at a little place and my (bad) memory says he told me they are not supposed to dispense their fuel into 5gal containers. I have no idea if he was bs'ing me or not. He did it every time I went out there.

Most likely, the attendant didn't want to fool with the small sale that you represent. Think about it, he's only interested in filling up an airplane with fuel, he's use to making sales of upwards of 50 gallons or more at a time.

You represent more of a nuisance than an actual sale.

[Tom Adams]

FWIW....the outdoor power equipment place I bought my Echo string trimmer from gave me sheet of paper that had a list of gas stations that sold non-ethanol gas - or as they said, "non contamenated gas". They told me that the new models of Echo, Husqvarna, Kawasaki, Stihl can handle the contamenated stuff but they said they've seen waaaaaay too many problems with ethanol. And judging from the all the commercial lawn care euipment they service, I believe they know what they're talking about. Ethanol - bleck!

And I suspect my chainsaw has become a victim of ethanol since it seems to be leaking fuel from around the fuel tank/line nipple.

Tom

[theplummer]

FWIW....the outdoor power equipment place I bought my Echo string trimmer from gave me sheet of paper that had a list of gas stations that sold non-ethanol gas - or as they said, "non contamenated gas". They told me that the new models of Echo, Husqvarna, Kawasaki, Stihl can handle the contamenated stuff but they said they've seen waaaaaay too many problems with ethanol. And judging from the all the commercial lawn care euipment they service, I believe they know what they're talking about. Ethanol - bleck!

And I suspect my chainsaw has become a victim of ethanol since it seems to be leaking fuel from around the fuel tank/line nipple.

Tom

Sorry to tell you that it sounds like the Alcohol has attacked the rubber hose. Bend around on it and see if you can see if any cracks have developed. If you can easily remove it from the nipple, look down the opening and see if you can see cracks on the inside of the hose. If so, don't waste your time replacing just the leaking hose. Replace EVERY rubber hose on it, as they all are just as old and subjected to the exact environment and you'll chase gas leaks, vacum leaks, ETC.

Not to mention that a Vacum leak on a 2 cycle can be detramental to the engine. See my above post that had me in a "FACE PALM" pose.

[Tarheel]

I also had a problem with a vacumn leak according to the repairman. I told him the symptom was that the saw revved up all the way when cranked and would not idle. He said the hoses were dry rotted and replaced them along with the fuel filter. Said the carb may be bad due to the ethanol but I took it home after he showed me it would crank. I've used it two days and it runs okay. The expensive premixed fuel seems to work well.

[winchester21]

I ran a Jonesred chain saw with kerosene by mistake and I swear they fixed it under warranty. Ethanol sucks- I have to buy BP white gas - prem to run in everything. I wonder if the racing/ pump fuel has ethanol?? I have had issues with gas left over the winter with gas in the tank- Before it was a matter of just draining the carb and good to go. Is STABILL any good?????????

[russ69]

. I wonder if the racing/ pump fuel has ethanol?? ............. Is STABILL any good?????????

Some racing fuel has ethanol added but it also has a good amount of fuel stabilizer because like airplanes, race cars can sit in disuse for a few months. I use Stabil over the winter months and it seems to work.

Thanx, Russ