Instrument tests on 5 tweeters

[Deang]

Al beating up on himself -- that's different. []

O.K., what do we really have here? We have one test sample from each tweeter and two single tones. In a more perfect world, dozens of test samples from each would be used, and it would certainly be interesting to see what would happen if they were tested across their entire bandwidth.

If I were to pick a tweeter based just on the distortion plots on the first page, I might rule out the Beyma and find me a nice pair of K-77s. I know I've knocked the K-77 around pretty hard in the past, but it really isn't that bad of a tweeter once you get past the nice kazoo quality it has. But hey, it has lower distortion, so it must sound better.

I like the CT-125 O.K., but if I have one criticism, it would be that it always seemed to dominate the sonic signature. Don't get me wrong, it sounds nice, but no matter what I did (3rd order, attenuate more), it always seemed to have a character all its own. Low distortion, and of course more bandwidth than the K-77 -- so I imagine it would have to sound better than both the K-77 and the Beyma. However, in my room with my system -- and after a good month of tormenting myself doing tweeter comparisons -- I ended up with the Beyma in my system.

Early in the tweeter game, I gave Bob a call and told him I really just preferred the sound of the Beyma. He told me that neither Michael nor himself were much impressed with it. It is a bit laid back sounding, but it blends really well and doesn't do the "Here I am!" thing. I like my sound to be seamless -- I don't like "noticing" a driver.

Distortion is just one parameter, and I'm not so sure anyone should be freaking out over 10% distortion at a handful of single frequencies. I mean, for crying out loud -- what of the distortion levels exhibited by the compression drivers most commonly used for the midrange ?

Lower distortion does not automatically translate to subjectively better sound.

I haven't heard the other tweeters used in Al's tests, they may sound better -- they may not. I suspect what will happen is that certain people will end up trying them all, and some will simply prefer the sound of one over the other. Whichever they choose, I can bet they won't be coming back in here saying they picked the one they did because of Al's plots.

The Beyma has a smooth FR and a good power response -- and if you cross over at 6kHz with a 3rd order Butterworth, it sounds really nice. I would drive my system to absurd levels on occasion, and I can tell you it sure wasn't the Beyma that was creating problems.

[Deang]

I have lived with 1st order crossovers - type A and the dhaxovers, homemade - for several years without being entirely happy. I recently moved over to your universal design and the khorns sound so much better at all volumes. Besides reducing drive unit overlap, I have the feeling that the steeper crossover on the tweeter is reducing distortion in the Beyma. Am I correct in thinking that a steeper crossover will help reduce IM distortion as less energy at lower frequencies is reaching the tweeter?

Yes.

The Beyma is a poor candidate for 1st order unless you mostly listen at low volumes or raise the crossover point.

[Rudy81]

Add me to the list of folks who wasn't thrilled with the K77 and went to the CT-125 initially. I will say however, that when you go with a different horn on the Eminence driver, the tweeter really opens up and is nicer yet. I went to the APT-150 when I added Al's Trachorns and had the extra room. Much nicer sound with the bigger tweeter horn than the CT-125. Of course, I wasn't working with a stock application either.

[Al Klappenberger]

Roberts,

As usual, when somebody else has a new idea, you jump on the band wagon. First the Trachorn . I'll go him one better by making a 2-inch clone. People will buy it because bigger must be better. Then the BMS driver somebody else suggested you use. Then the DCM50 B&C driver because I picked it. Of course there's my Universal networks I led you by the hand on how to build. I never did get you to understand the difference between and inductor and a capacitor to spite my best efforts to explain it. Also there's the Beyma tweeter you sell because most people seem to like it, partly because of me promoting it. Now you decide to jump on the B&C and Selenium tweeter idea. One of these days you might actually have an original thought. What's next, a crossover with a single capacitor like you find in 2-way OEM car speakers?

I am truly apprehensive about this rant. I didn't want this thread to degenerate into a pi$$ing contest, but I am tired of this guy. It probably means that this entire thread will be deleted. I would never try to build speaker cabinets. I know noting about how to do it. Greg has a unique and valuable talent for this. It could be a very profitable niche and he should capitalize on it. Instead he has to horn in on other peoples niches. He has no experience in horn making or electronics. He even picked Bill Martinelli's brains over the phone about how to make a horn. I can't build horns either. That is why Martinelli does it for me. I had to stop him from stuffing wood filler in the throat of his V-Trac to convert the square throat to the round driver! Then there's the thin curved sides. Dr Edgar warned that using thin bendable plywood on this type of horn in his article. It causes coloration. What, he can't read!

I am too ticked to answer any questions for a while. I'll check back later to see if this thread is still here and what it has degenerated into. In the meantime, email me.

Al K.

[Fjd]

It seems like Al has presented good information that a person involved in modifications could consider when developing design goals. If we can keep it in the proper context, the information can help many.

This thread does remind me of the old carbon comp vs carbon film vs metal film resistor debate where many people believe that wire-wound resistors are the best choice for low noise, followed by metal film, metal oxide, carbon film, and lastly, carbon composition.

The most interesting (and maybe relevant[8]) thing is that many people prefer the "sound" of carbon comps and claim the carbon comp resistors sound “warmer” than film or wire-wound resistors. I’ve read that the most likely reason is that the sound could be attributed to "distortions" generated by the modulation of the contact noise current by the AC signal. Given that this noise has characteristics that are similar to pink noise; many people may find it more pleasing to the ear than white noise. However, when considering your design goals, “pleasing noise” is still noise, and in many opinions, one of the design goals may be to reduce "noise" to the lowest possible level.[^o)]

Also, to keep the measurements in the proper context, the equipment that Al lists on the first page would not be considered a “battery checker.” The HP 3562A/3563A series of analyzer was originally listed at a MSRP of $22,000 - $26,500 (although I believe that it is 1990’s or 80's technology[:-*]). Here is an overview of specs http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/faqDetail.jspx?cc=FR&lc=fre&ckey=489086&nid=-536902471.536882157&id=489086. In addition “consumers union” has made a living “testing” and “validating” manufacturer’s assertions.[]

[greg928gts]

Geez, I hope this thread doesn't get deleted. I think I might be having the most fun of anyone here. Besides, there's some very useful information being rooted out here.

Mr. Klappenberger,

With every bit of arrogant condescension and insult you display, people become more aware of your true colors.

Greg

[sootshe]

Geez, I hope this thread doesn't get deleted.  I think I might be having the most fun of anyone here.  Besides, there's some very useful information being rooted out here.   

 

Mr. Klappenberger,

With every bit of arrogant condescension and insult you display, people become more aware of your true colors. 

 

Greg

If you guys want to have a slinging match, I wish you'd do it somewhere else. To the less technically minded of us out here......we all love input from both of you & we'll decide who we buy equipment from based on our evaluation of your posts.....anyway I didn't think this was the appropriate place for two competitors to be arguing about their business practices. We come here to get away from the stress of life & to enjoy our hobby, please lets get back to that.[*-)]

[ZAKO]

Ay !!!! there,s nothin like a good bar fight.

[WMcD]

Thanks for the information Al.

I don't see any need for contention.

Wm McD

[Deang]

Really -- the only one around here that should be ticked is me -- I really like the Beyma! [8o|]

[greg928gts]

You have no electronic instruments and would not know how to use them if you did. The only instruments you have are your ears. Those, like all others need to be calibrated. The human ears are calibrated by listening to live music.

That's not true. I have lots of electronic instruments that I use for testing, I just use different instruments than you use, and my approach is different. There's no reason to insult me. I don't insult you regarding your testing methods. I think your knowledge of test gear and how to use it is impressive. I have a philisophical difference of opinion on how useful the information you get from your testing is, or what conclusions should be drawn from that information. But that's no reason to be insulting towards me.

I spent 15 years of my young adult life listening to live music every week. My job as a live sound engineer trained my ears to be able to recognize how instruments were supposed to sound. I had the opportunity to work with some great sound engineers, who taught me well. Some of the PA gear I got to work with was pretty impressive too. My ability to pick-out any type of sound from the mix and evaluate the tonal qualities of that sound became very good during that time. To this day I still miss that work. I don't miss the late nights or the lifestyle of living on the road, but the work was very rewarding.

Greg

[dkalsi]

...and the winner is.........(drumroll).....all of us.

I think the competition between the two of you has resulted in great products for all us. I have absolutely loved every product that AL has come up with - I have pretty much gone down the entire line.... I started with the universals, then the trachorn, and then the most amazing upgrade in my system- the ALK ES Crossovers. If I have to choose one product that resulted in the most performance increase in my system, I would say it has the be the ALK ES Crossovers. Unlike most of you, I like my music loud. I love to be able to turn it up and enjoy distortion free music. The ES crossover all me to do just that.

Later, I discovered the V-Trac. I don't know or understand how the V-Tac+BMS combo measures technically, but those who have had the opportunity to hear it know that it is something special. When I A/Bed the Al Trachorn+JBL 2470 driver vs the V-Trac+BMS combo, I preferred the V-Trac+BMS more. I wouldn't go so far as to label this an "improvement" - its just a different sound that I preferred. I think the V-Trac+BMS combo is CRAZY expensive, but to me, the cost was worth it. I think the ALK+Trachorn+JBL 2470 gets you 95% of the way there.

All in all - I think both of you guys have come up great products that make music more enjoyable. However, I do wish the bashing between you two would end (at least here at the forums).

[greg928gts]

As usual, when somebody else has a new idea, you jump on the band wagon. First the Trachorn . I'll go him one better by making a 2-inch clone

Need I point out that your Trachorn is a clone of previous designs? If anyone jumped on the bandwagon it is you. The V-Trac horn is completely different than the Trachorn. Had a 2" horn been available early in 2009 for me to install in my Khorns, I never would have developed the V-Trac horn.

You are the one who imitated me by coming out with a 2" horn for the Khorn. I was the one who had the original thought to develop a 2"-throat horn for the Khorn that would fit under the Khorn tophat. I showed you how successful the product could be, and you copied my efforts and brought to this very small market a competing product.

When my customers were complaining about having to wait two months to get crossover networks from you for their V-Trac equipped Khorns, I didn't just go out and copy your network design, build them and sell them. Instead, out of respect for you, and for how small a community this is, I came to you and negotiated a deal with you that enabled you to make a royalty for each pair that I buiilt and sold. I did this, even though you have no patent on the design, or even a trademark on the name "Universal". I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. But did you offer me the same respect and courtesy regarding the 2" horn for the Khorn? No, you didn't. Because it's part of your nature to be disrespectful, arrogant and condescending, all traits that you are displaying here with your words.

The rest of you have got to realize that I'm not going to sit back and let ALK lie about me and the products I produce without defending myself. This is my livelihood we're talking about here. He's told me several times in emails, and he's been telling people for months about how flimsy my horns are. I mean what the heck is that? Flimsy? Come on. You don't sell eighty horns inside of one year if you're making them flimsy. For whatever reason, Mr. K is just out to get me, and he's been making sure that the bottom line of nearly all his threads over the last few months are to that end. If you read what he is saying, it's don't buy Greg's horns they are flimsy, don't use BMS drivers they aren't good, don't use Beyma tweeters, they aren't good, bigger horns have issues wtih throat distortion (because the V-Trac horn is larger than his new 2" horn and he knows that's a weakness), midrange drivers can be too high efficiency (therefore you can't attenuate the BMS drivers correctly on the V-Trac horn), etc... Any product that I've been involved with is a target for ALK. So when you say to me that we should not be arguing about this here on the forum, you don't know the whole story. In my shoes, you would be saying a whole lot more than I have. Check my posts, they are pretty reserved considering the slop that's been shoveled my way. I wouldn't argue (defend myself) if I didn't have to. I feel it's a matter of survival in business, and I intend to continue defending myself.

Greg

[Fjd]

I believe that most of us on the modifications pages are infatuated with the potential of what arguably better drivers and modifications could do for our iconic Klipsch Heritage loudspeakers given Paul’s penchant for “making the proverbial silk purse out of the sow’s ear.” However, there were not many companies “overbuilding” the way JBL did with some of their iconic drivers (i.e. LE15A, 375 & 077) so I believe that Paul was not necessarily alone.

I believe it was back around 2002 - 2003 that the Beyma CP25 was identified on this site as a viable low cost alternative to the K77, although modifications would be required as the horn was different and needed a different baffle cut-out. The JBL 2404 was always a contender for a modification alternative and this link was one of the first I found that mentioned the JBL 2404 and the Beyma CP25 http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/15166.aspx?PageIndex=1, then I found the The Audio Engineering League link for the specific Klipschorn modification and John Warren’s JBL 2404 modification here http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/40135.aspx?PageIndex=1. However, the JBL 2404 was selling upwards to $287 each while the Beyma CP25 could be obtained for $60 each (although it wasn’t apparent that the sales were through a rogue seller at the time). Now the JBL 2404 is NLA new, but the Beyma became one of those cases where you get the old 80/20 rule (arguably “80% of the benefit for 20% of the cost”). In terms of distortion, if you compare the JBL 2404 to the Beyma CP25 the distortion is clearly a lot lower on the JBL; though that’s not to say the Beyma tweeters are bad. This is not new information.

Fast forward to today and we have a lot of “new products” from different manufacturers that may be very viable as the next great 80% performance for 20% of the cost deal[]. I don’t know about others, but I enjoy making different and hopefully nicer sounding loudspeakers and the testing specifications that are posted helps me validate what academically looks good in what I’m trying to accomplish. In some respects, these debates brought to mind something Mohammed Ali once said that “The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.”[]

I agree with DeanG in “…..certain people will end up trying them all, and some will simply prefer the sound of one over the other. Whichever they choose, I can bet they won't be coming back in here saying they picked the one they did because of Al's plots;” however, the plots help identify viable alternatives for our intended applications.

I also agree with Dkalsi that there is room for healthy competition[Y] and hopefully the consumer can see some benefit too. The good thing is that we don't see signs of collusion on this thread......[]

[Al Klappenberger]

I see this thread is still here. I'm am surprised.

I think it's going to get very obvious about the true colors of the individuals involved here as people start dealing with each of us directly. As it happened, somebodies knee-jerk reaction to the entry of another 2-inch wood horn to the market resulted in the termination of the license to build and sell my Universal network. Large 2-inch drivers are totally incompatible with every stock Klipsch network. Now that somebody can only sell off the remainder of the 10 sets of networks built under the license, ALL of his customers are going to have to come to someone else for networks. How convenient! Well, maybe Dean Wescott (DEANG) can bail him out. He and I are the only people who can. After all, not everybody knows if a capacitor gets connected in series or in parallel!

BTW: Now that V-audio has terminated the license to build the ALK Universal network, I suggest that all references to ALK be removed from that web site. My stuff is no longer one of his "products". After all, why would such a stand-up guy want to be associated with a total rat like me?

AL K.

[Al Klappenberger]

To all,

The last word on the Byema CP25 has not yet been written. The dispersion of a tweeter is also a consideration. All good engineering is a balance of trade-offs. I personally believe that distortion is more important than dispersion but I may be wrong considering the levels I chose to do the testing my be higher than those encountered in the average home listening situation. Distortion drops faster than the level as the volume is turned down. The small 1/4 inch round aperture of the Beyma compared to the 1 inch throats of the Selenium and the B&C drivers is probably responsible for both the dispersion and the distortion. This is one situation where instruments fail and the human ear needs to step in. One of my customers using the Trachorn 400 and CP25 tweeter is doing a listening test. I did also and I am definitely not happy with the sound of symbols. I will be replacing the Beymas with the B&C tweeters a soon as I can get them. I will know shortly if it's the Beyma tweeter distorting the sound.

Al K.

[ngk]

Al,

I think that you have answered why many are happy with the Beyma. We simply do not listen at ear splitting levels. A combination of family, neighbours, room size and individual tolerance to loud music. I know that in my listening room, a sustained level 100dB+ would be unbearable, that the room acoustics would make the whole experience intolerable - and I think that IM distortion would not be the major consideration.

Nick

[greg928gts]

He has no experience in horn making or electronics.

Wrong again K!

I've built over one hundred and twenty five horns now, all by myself. My knowledge of horn design and construction continues to grow every week. What I know about horn building is not all from a technical standpoint. I actually put my hands on these nearly every day, designing and shaping them every step of the way. I also listen to what I build regularly, which is more than you can say.

How about we say that you have no experience listening to Khorns? Have you ever even owned a pair of them? Do you own a pair now?

Greg