Center Channel Help

[psg]

It's been a good 6 months but I wanted to give an update on my progress. I did get the RC-64. I also got the RF-63's and RS-62's.

I am STILL not getting dialogue as clear and crisply as I hoped.

As a test, got back into the receiver setup menus and tell it that you don't have a center speaker (i.e. set it to "none" instead of "small" and "large", or that selection may appear in another menu labeled something like "number of speakers"). See is that sounds better. If it does, the likely cause is the center speaker placement. Try moving it to another spot as a test (maybe outside of an AV rack and right in front of the screen seated on a stool.)

[kelA]

PSG brings up a good point about center speaker placement. Is it too high or too low of your seating position? Are you able to post a pic of your front soundstage?

I have Audyssey on my Denon and the Audyssey people say to leave the LFE adjustment at 120hz. On my Denon it is adjustable from the setup screen but it is not recommended to be adjusted. This is NOT for individual speaker crossover points.

P.S. if you set a speaker location to "none" after the auto setup/calibration has been performed, you MAY have to redo the auto setup calibration. I believe this is true on the Denon models.

[Ironsave]

It's been a good 6 months but I wanted to give an update on my progress. I did get the RC-64. I also got the RF-63's and RS-62's.

I am STILL not getting dialogue as clear and crisply as I hoped. Even the dealer that sold me the RC-64 admitted that it was hard to beat that Center Channel and they primarily sold Definitive Technology. I guess in my mind I thought that surely this would solve all of my movie viewing woes where action was drowning out dialogue but no. I still have that same problem. I don't want to turn the center channel up because then during the action sequences if something passes from left to right or vice versa you can really hear the difference.

Thanks for all of your comments and advice. Now I've got to figure out how to get these awesome new speakers tuned in so that I get the surround sound experience I'm wanting. I think I'll start a new thread concerning this though.

I am assuming you have your speakers connected properly.

I reccomend you go into the on screen display of your Onkyo.

You should be able to select speaker setup.

I reccomend setting them all to small; and crossover at 60 or 80 hz. (This sends lower frequencies to the sub only).

There should also be an equalizer. Make sure this is set to 0s across the ranges for every channel. I am not sure if Auddesy changes these EQ settings automatically..... I am betting your mifddle and higher frequencies are set in the negative (or the lows set WAY up in the positive).....

(You can then begin experimenting; starting from a nuetral point).

Download your owners manual from the Onkyo website.

Your receiver has features you may not be aware of.

I have not used Audessy; but a previous point is valid; if you did this setup with the center connected wrong (or the previous Energy speaker as the center) you may wish to redo this.

Sounds to me like something is amiss with your settings..... I can almost guarantee it.

Good Luck.

[Bohvey]

The Center Channel is currently under the TV on the TV stand. It is at perfect eye level when sitting on the couch. The TV is mounted on the wall just above it, I'll include a picture. I took this with my phone, not a great pic, sorry... the left and right towers are in the corners of the room ~ 54" from the center of the center channel. The TV is just above, you can see the shadow at the top there.

All of the speakers are set to 80hz. They are all connected properly. I'll adjust the sub to 120 LPF of LFE per your suggestions. There isn't a "small" option in the Onkyo settings. You can set them to Full Band or 20, 40, 60, 80, 100... etc. Again, they are all set to 80hz. I peformed the Audessy setup again when I got all of the new speakers. It had my fronts and my center set to Full Band and I changed that to 80hz. The Audessy set the level calibration for my speakers as: Front L/R = -5, Center = -4, Surrounds
L/R = -6, Sub = -7.

As for the equalizer, it's currently set as "Audessy" and doesn't actually show me what they are set at. I can do manual and just leave all of that as zero as well. I have a lot to play with it sounds like.

It's not that the Center Channel doesn't work. There is sound that comes from the center channel. When I do the level calibration everything sounds great, no speaker is louder than the other in the front 3 so I should have a great consistent transfer of sound from Left to Right. Then I put a movie on and I find that the dialogue is still difficult to hear over the action in a movie.

I was actually going through the owner's manual last night. I still have the original manual, I'm very OCD about keeping things like that. I plan on disconnecting the wires from the receiver and reconnecting them. I never did that so if it wasn't getting a good connection to begin with that could have been the problem.

Awesome feedback, thanks guys.

[willland]

This may just be a long shot but how far is the front of the center speaker to the front edge of the stand? If it is too far it might just be diffusing the sound away from your ears. I have my RC-64 right on the edge of my shelf angled right at my ears.

Just a thought,

Bill

[Bohvey]

Alright... so last night I disconnected the speaker wire from the receiver, cut new ends and reconnected them. I went into the Level calibration and set is as follows: Front L/R = -2, Center = 0, Surround L/R = -4, Sub = -4. The center has one more driver than the fronts so it made sense to me that it would need a little more umph to reach the same volume as the towers. Then I went into the EQ settings and put it on manual. I left everything at 0 except I boosted the midrange of the front stage +3 to help with the vocals come through stronger. Then I noticed that the speaker was actually angled down just slightly. I flipped it over and using the provided feet I raised the front end so that it was tilting up slightly.

After all of that I watched UP and everything sounded really good. I noticed that I had my volume up louder than I typically would during the movie and during some gaming that night. Usually for a movie my volume is around 30 and I had it at about 36 and for gaming (kids in bed) I put the volume at 12 and I had it around 16.

I'll most likely still tweak with it all a bit here and there but I didn't have any trouble hearing the dialogue in the movie. What's a good movie to use to try out the surround sound?

Thanks everyone for your help.

[willland]

Glad to see things are improving.

What's a good movie to use to try out the surround sound?

Short list, not in any particular order:

1) Saving Private Ryan(BD or DVD)

2) Master and Commander(BD or DVD)

3) Dark Knight

4) Iron Man

5) Black Hawk Down

6) We Were Soldiers

7) UP

8) Kung Fu Panda

Bill

[Youthman]

The Book of Eli

Avatar

[Ironsave]

Terminator Salvation

Transformers 2

As mentioned; The Book Of Eli

[Kritzer]

It's been a good 6 months but I wanted to give an update on my progress. I did get the RC-64. I also got the RF-63's and RS-62's.

I am STILL not getting dialogue as clear and crisply as I hoped. Even the dealer that sold me the RC-64 admitted that it was hard to beat that Center Channel and they primarily sold Definitive Technology. I guess in my mind I thought that surely this would solve all of my movie viewing woes where action was drowning out dialogue but no. I still have that same problem. I don't want to turn the center channel up because then during the action sequences if something passes from left to right or vice versa you can really hear the difference.

Thanks for all of your comments and advice. Now I've got to figure out how to get these awesome new speakers tuned in so that I get the surround sound experience I'm wanting. I think I'll start a new thread concerning this though.

I went from an RC-62 to an RC-64 using an Onkyo TX-SR607. I actually saw a "decrease" in performance going from the 62 to the 64, the 64 sounded almost muffled and like it was not getting enough power. I upgraded to a Onkyo TX-NR807 and it made all the difference. The center channel came to life with all the power I had expected (even more). I am still even more power hungry and plan to add an Emotiva XPA-3 for all three of my fronts.

[Bohvey]

Thanks for that information. I was planning on getting a new receiver once I moved into my new house. The next house is going to have a dedicated HT room. Now it's sounding like I may be better off getting an amp. Can I just add an amp to my existing receiver or do I need a pre-amp too? I was looking at the Emotiva UPA-7 since I will have a 7.1 setup eventually. Is 125 watts per channel sufficient? Is that ACTUALLY pushing 125 watts to each channel? I saw that Emotiva was selling the UMC-1 which looked like a receiver minus the built in amp. With that said if I went Emotiva UMC-1 and UPA-7 would I need a receiver anymore?

I was thinking I could start by getting the UPA-7 if that'll provide enough power and then eventually get the UMC-1 in a year or so. What are your thoughts?

Any suggestions on what my next big chunk of money should be sunk into

This community is awesome. Thanks again for all of the help, advice and feedback.

[willland]

Now it's sounding like I may be better off getting an amp. Can I just add an amp to my existing receiver or do I need a pre-amp too?

From a reply earlier:

Bohvey:

"Should I be looking into getting a seperate amp?"

"Unfortunately, your Onkyo TX-SR607 only has preouts for (2) subs so you can't ad an amp unless you upgrade your receiver to at least the 707/708 if you want to stick with Onkyo."

Sad to say if you do want to add an amp you must upgrade to a receiver with preouts or just buy a pre/pro and add at least a 5-channel amp. If you like the features and functionality and sound of the Onkyo, step up to the 707 or 708 and add a 2, 3, or 5 channel amp. While the Emotivas get great reviews and many forum members are happy owners, on the used market there are tons of options.

Hard to beat these receivers at these prices:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR707/Onkyo/TX-SR707-Thx-Select2-Plus-100-watts-channel-7.2-Receiver/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR708/Onkyo/TX-NR708-7.2-Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR807/Onkyo/TX-NR807-THX-Select2-Plus-135-watts-Channel-7.2-Network-Receiver/1.html

Suggestion for amp:

http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?amps50ch&1297719715&&&/-B-K-Reference-7250-Series-II-

Bill

[willland]

Another reasonably priced amp to run with your setup.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1296412852&/Nad-5-Channel-Amp-925-thx-swee

Forum member Jeff Tubbs bought one of these from me a while back and has been totally pleased with its performance with his RF7's/RC7 setup. Don't be put off by it's 125w/ch 5-channel rating, it is rated at 200w/ch in stereo. When I owned it it made my RF-63's thump. Tons of reserve power.

Quote from email Jeff just sent me:

"The amp is wonderful. You have to remember that I am running my rf7s bi-amped. So instead of powering 5 speakers, I'm only powering 3. I love the amp and the way it sounds. If the gentleman you are asking for has rf7s without x over mods, he wil tell a great difference in the full range of music. Anything that I have ever listened to with this amp seems to take out the harshness of high freq sounds, ie, the only problem with the rf7. I don't believe there is another unit out there that can deliver this consistent power. Please pass my contact info to this gentleman and I would be glad to talk with him about my first hand experience. I am impressed daily on the way the thx 925 handles my rc7 and pair of rf7s."

Bill

[Michael J]

I have VF 36 speakers and was looking to upgrade my center. The center that goes with the VF 36 HT system is the VC 25. My question...is if i decided to spend the money to go for the rc 62 or rxc64 would that sound better than if i purchased the vc 25 that goes with my VF 36 speakers? I too have an onkyo 607 recv. Does that affect the timbers mix matching a ref series center with an Icon VF fronts speakers?

[willland]

Michael,

I welcomed you privately now to welcome you publicly.

Welcome to the forum.

I have VF 36 speakers and was looking to upgrade my center. The center that goes with the VF 36 HT system is the VC 25. My question...is if i decided to spend the money to go for the rc 62 or rxc64 would that sound better than if i purchased the vc 25 that goes with my VF 36 speakers? I too have an onkyo 607 recv. Does that affect the timbers mix matching a ref series center with an Icon VF fronts speakers?

Get the matching center or return VF-36's and get all reference series. While the RC-62 is a great center speaker and the RC-64 even better, your system will be mismatched both in timbre and looks.

Bill

[Michael J]

Thanks Bill

I figured that would be the answer. Since I got a really good deal with the VF 36 $400 a pair, looks like I'll be putting a VF HT together which I think will sound good being my 1st HT. We will be in the market soon to getting a new car for the wife...so I'll have to wait to upgrade to RF or better. I'm happy with the VF so far..

[Bohvey]

First I want to say Merry Christmas to everyone. So if I'm understanding this correctly I don't NEED a pre-amp. I can get away with just a new receiver and amp? Any thoughts on that Emotiva UMC-1 and UPA-7 combo? I was going to call them and see what kind of deal if any I could swing.

If not... it looks like I'll need to buy a new receiver AND amplifier. Is there just a great receiver available that could do both, I'm not married to the Onkyo brand but for the performance, specifications, options and price it's hard to beat Onkyo from what I've seen. I'll definitely check out the options that you guys have been so awesome to offer up. I've always felt like if I'm going to buy something I want to buy it once so I tend to spend the money on the best I can get. Still in this case I don't have $2000 just laying around, $600 I could swing so I may be building more slowly into this.

Thanks again everyone. I'll continue to keep you updated. Now to take a look at all those links.

[willland]

So if I'm understanding this correctly I don't NEED a pre-amp. I can get away with just a new receiver and amp?

Correct. A receiver with 7.1 preouts can be used as a preamp or in this case a pre/pro(preamp/processor). To do so, you would connect your outboard amp via RCA cables to each channel(preouts) of your receiver. Your receiver will only power(amplify) the channels that you do not want the amp to. Many members use a 3-channel amp to power the front soundstage(L-C-R) and let the receiver handle the surrounds, Some use 5-channel amps to power a 5.1 system, 7-channel for 7.1. Any of those configurations will work fine.

This high-midlevel receiver from Onkyo at this pricepoint is a good choice if you want to start out not using an outboard amp.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR807/Onkyo/TX-NR807-THX-Select2-Plus-135-watts-Channel-7.2-Network-Receiver/1.html

Bill

[Bohvey]

What's the magic word I'm looking for in a new receiver that will allow me to add an amp to the receiver? The NR807 looks like the nicest 7.2 receiver available. If that one pushes the most watts "per channel" I think I'll order it tonight once I get home from visiting family for the holidays.

Once again, great info here. I think I'll look into some 5 channel amps next. If the receiever can handle driving what the amp isn't driving then I'm not too worried about getting a 7 channel amp. The NAD one you posted looked good too so I may pick that one up.

[willland]

My current receiver is 7.1, why is it that I can't just add an amp to it? What's the magic word I'm looking for in new receiver that will allow me to add an amp to the receiver?

Read all of this again and find the magic word/words.[] Hint: preouts

Bohvey:

"Now it's sounding like I may be better off getting an amp. Can I just add an amp to my existing receiver or do I need a pre-amp too?

From a reply earlier:

Bohvey:

"Should I be looking into getting a seperate amp?"

"Unfortunately, your Onkyo TX-SR607 only has preouts for (2) subs so you can't ad an amp unless you upgrade your receiver to at least the 707/708 if you want to stick with Onkyo."

Sad to say if you do want to add an amp you must upgrade to a receiver with 7.1 preouts or just buy a pre/pro and add at least a 5-channel amp. If you like the features and functionality and sound of the Onkyo, step up to the 707 or 708 and add a 2, 3, or 5 channel amp. While the Emotivas get great reviews and many forum members are happy owners, on the used market there are tons of options."

Sorry to be blunt.[H]

Bill