Corner-loaded bass horn designs other than Khorn?

[Lime Twig]

Hi everyone,

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me about other speaker designs using a corner-loaded bass horn other than the Khorn.

It seems like such an ingenious idea on PWK's part to use the corner of the room to extend the horn, I wonder why I haven't seen other examples of it (I suppose that corner-loading was always a tricky design to integrate into many folks' living rooms).

The reason I'm asking is because I want to build a sub for my La Scalas. I've got four of them that I'm using to DJ small parties and we need bass. I know some would suggest scrapping the LS and going Khorn to get more bass but I don't think that will do it. We want the slam of real nightclub bass and from what I hear, the Khorn, while impressive, won't quite do it.

So, I'm thinking La Scala plus a horn-loaded bass bin underneath it running as a 4 way system. Any suggestions for designs? They can be big, they can be ugly...

Thanks!

[Guest " "]

for DJing with LaScala's you can use KP-480's which are basically 2x2x2 in size. There are other klipsch bass boxes that would also work depending on the size you can tolerate.

Horn loaded subs are not practical for PA use unless you go with a scoop design.

In most cases the disadvantages provided by not having horn loaded subs can be mitigated by using drivers in traditional designs that have large excursions.

if you want to see other PA ideas for subs, take a look at the subwoofers renkus-heinz makes for PA use. attached

[Guest " "]

Here's a 3-way system using there design which can put out 131db's

[DrWho]

We want the slam of real nightclub bass and from what I hear, the Khorn, while impressive, won't quite do it.

It's been my experience that the slam you're referring to is only going to come from vented direct radiators....I've never heard a horn-loaded sub come close to approximating the nightclub bass sound.

If you want it to be very clean and tight, but still knock you in the chest, then I would highly recommend a dual-opposed design with 18" drivers, and I would probably lean towards a 35Hz to 40Hz tune. I wouldn't really recommend going much lower because that's part of the sound you're looking at.

What kind of budget are you looking at for this project?

[Lime Twig]

It's been my experience that the slam you're referring to is only going to come from vented direct radiators....I've never heard a horn-loaded sub come close to approximating the nightclub bass sound.

There are certainly differences of opinion amongst those who build club systems - and direct radiators are no doubt quite common these days - but there are many great horn-loaded subs out there. The original nightclubs such as the Paradise Garage in New York (designed by Richard Long) all had horn-loaded subs. The most famous one there being the "Bertha" sub with the "Levan" horn mouth extension. This design is still imitated in premier night clubs. Martin Audio's revamp of the Ministry of Sound is all horns, the Funktion 1 systems are all horn-loaded as well, ditto Gary Stewart Audio and SBS.

I should mention that these are all examples of that *very small* group of people/companies who care about quasi-audiophile nightclub sound, which is why so many people are unfamilar with them!

[boom3]

Actually, in its first 15 or so years, the Klipschorn had a bevy of corner horn competitors. Among them, the L.E.E. Catenoid, and the Jensen Imperial. The Imperials still have a large fan base, and the plans are available on the web. Then in the late 50s the acoustic suspension ("air suspension") boxes came out and all but the Klipschorn went extinct (in the US at least ). However, all of these designs (and the Klipschorn itself) were designed for the era of the LP when it was very rare to get any data below 50 Hz, so they are not suited to be subwoofers. If you google horn subwoofer you'll find a number of designs out there.

[seti]

If it is night club slam you want look at the Klipsch Pro subs or even Danley Labs. There are lots of interesting speakers in the Klipsch Pro line. The 884 or 418 may be what you are looking for http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/cinema-speaker/default.aspx?viewall=true .

[seti]

It's been my experience that the slam you're referring to is only going to come from vented direct radiators....I've never heard a horn-loaded sub come close to approximating the nightclub bass sound.

There are certainly differences of opinion amongst those who build club systems - and direct radiators are no doubt quite common these days - but there are many great horn-loaded subs out there. The original nightclubs such as the Paradise Garage in New York (designed by Richard Long) all had horn-loaded subs. The most famous one there being the "Bertha" sub with the "Levan" horn mouth extension. This design is still imitated in premier night clubs. Martin Audio's revamp of the Ministry of Sound is all horns, the Funktion 1 systems are all horn-loaded as well, ditto Gary Stewart Audio and SBS.

I should mention that these are all examples of that *very small* group of people/companies who care about quasi-audiophile nightclub sound, which is why so many people are unfamilar with them!

Have you thought about getting one of these horn systems custom made?

I went to a small club in austin and they had TAD drivers and horns in the walls in a custom setup. It was one of the best clubs I have heard. I think they had subs but I could not located. The way the club was designed this would have been very easy to hide.

[jason str]

Direct radiator woofers or subwoofers seem to have the upper hand with drum beats, the distortion from the cone(s) can be very convincing & loud.

Horn loading subs & woofers does something magical with strings and i just cant get enough.

If you really need slam and ugly & big are no concern check this out:

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T60.html

[Lime Twig]

Thanks for the tip on Fitzmaurice, he's a name I've come across a lot.
Have heard some mixed reviews of the subs which is why I've held off on
jumping in and building one. [fwiw, I should say though that the
negative reports I've heard were from someone who hadn't heard them. He
was however, someone who knows his stuff and someone whose opinion I
take seriously.]

I'm leaning towards building a design which would be an upsized version of a Khorn. A 15" or even 18" driver perhaps with an extended horn throat and mouth.

Does anyone know how long the horn path is the Khorn?

[Lime Twig]

Have you thought about getting one of these horn systems custom made?

I went to a small club in austin and they had TAD drivers and horns in the walls in a custom setup. It was one of the best clubs I have heard. I think they had subs but I could not located. The way the club was designed this would have been very easy to hide.

I have. I'd rather try my hand at building one myself since I'm a decent cabinet maker and I have access to knowledgable people here in town to help guide my design.

TAD drivers are legendary. Which club was it?

[seti]

Have you thought about getting one of these horn systems custom made?

I went to a small club in austin and they had TAD drivers and horns in the walls in a custom setup. It was one of the best clubs I have heard. I think they had subs but I could not located. The way the club was designed this would have been very easy to hide.

I have. I'd rather try my hand at building one myself since I'm a decent cabinet maker and I have access to knowledgable people here in town to help guide my design.

TAD drivers are legendary. Which club was it?

Very cool. I hope you post your build here. I don't usually hang out on 6th street but the club was on the main strip with all the wild ones. Next time I'm there I'll try to get a pic but it sounded wonderful. I was really surprised at how clean the system sounded and how much impact it had.

[Lime Twig]

Will keep you posted, Seti. I usually post on Wave Music's Tech Talk forum, that's where you'll find the few nightclub installers with an ear for quality and horn systems.It'll be a while before I start building though - I've got a lot of learning to do first.

Say hi to Sunny Ra from Saturn for me, won't you?

[seti]

Will keep you posted, Seti. I usually post on Wave Music's Tech Talk forum, that's where you'll find the few nightclub installers with an ear for quality and horn systems.It'll be a while before I start building though - I've got a lot of learning to do first.

Say hi to Sunny Ra from Saturn for me, won't you?

Will do. Space Is The Place

[WMcD]

My two cents.

You're taking on a tremendously difficult project in building K-Horns. If you want a corner horn, the Jubilee is much easier to build. You can scale up if you desire.

Even so, if I was in your situation and really wanted a bass horn. The MCM type would probably do a better job. I don't know of plans. There is something similar from EV. I'd think you'll not find a good corner in every nightclub.

Generally, corner horns have somewhat short length and small mouths. The corner and room gain makes up for some of this. The reason is to make them of an acceptable size in the living room.

OTOH, the MCM has a lower flare rate, longer length, and bigger mouth. You can't really get away from the physics.

Wm McD

[Lime Twig]

Excellent advice, William, exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to solicit. Let me clarify: I'm not going to try to build Khorns, I've looked at plans and decided I want nothing to do with that many compound angles. What I was thinking about building is a simpler but longer-throat corner horn.

Could you tell me more about the MCM or the version made by EV?

Thanks!

My two cents.

You're taking on a tremendously difficult project in building K-Horns. If you want a corner horn, the Jubilee is much easier to build. You can scale up if you desire.

Even so, if I was in your situation and really wanted a bass horn. The MCM type would probably do a better job. I don't know of plans. There is something similar from EV. I'd think you'll not find a good corner in every nightclub.

Generally, corner horns have somewhat short length and small mouths. The corner and room gain makes up for some of this. The reason is to make them of an acceptable size in the living room.

OTOH, the MCM has a lower flare rate, longer length, and bigger mouth. You can't really get away from the physics.

Wm McD

[Olorin]

The jbell tapped horn at diyaudio.com might be your cup of tea.

[Lime Twig]

I first heard about tapped horns just this week - not something I've ever been familiar with. From what I can make out they look like folded horns where the driver isn't in a compression chamber. I'm assuming that means you get the wave coming off the back of the cone too, but in phase with the wave coming from the horn? Almost like a scoop bin with a much longer horn and the driver firing the opposite direction. Am I right?

More importantly: what do they sound like compared to folded horns?

[WMcD]

You can look at the MCM here. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/50229/477515.aspx#477515

You shouldn't be discouraged by the freq curve shown. It is outdoors elevated above the ground. KHorns in those conditions can't do nearly as well. It will translate to much better performance in a room. You should look around the forum for posts by MCM owners who use them in rooms.

I think there are some home builders of MCM someplace here.

Wm McD

[WMcD]

FYI, http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Builders%20Plans/TL4050%20Builders%20Plans.pdf

Naturally I'm loyal to the Klipsch design.

WMcD