How do you know if you need an amp?

[mharper3]

I recently purchased the rf 82 II package. 5.1. My current reciever is a yamaha rx-v463. I honestly don't know how good that receiver is. 525w 105 x 5.

So I want to get th most out of my speakers. I have been considering the denon 1911 but honestly I could careless about the 3d. I just want quality sound. But even with the denon 1911 it is only 105 watt per channel. Is that ging to be enough for these speakers? Do I spend the money on the upgraded receiver and not worry because that is enough power or do I get an amp? I have seen xpa amps that are that are $530 for a 3 channell and $700 for a 5 channel. After spending $3200 on a stereo system I am not really wanting to spend much more. My limit is right around $650 range.

So what are your suggestions? What is going to benefit me more? If I get the amp what is recommended? 3 or 5 channel. Any of brands or options you would suggest?

Please be honest. If my yamaha is crap tell me so. I just want to get the most out of this new set up.

[USNRET]

Answer to question: when you are using a receiver instead of separate amp(S).

Now seriously my input would be that if you are happy with your current receiver's performance, eh not performance but ability to switch HDMI inputs, any video upscaling you need, etc then the best bang for busk is to go with the amp(s). Remember that most, if not all, receivers have a single power supply to power all channels of amplification, on board decoding and everything else that goes on inside those fancy things and you have to be pretty careful about reading the "all channels powered at this freq. range and distortion" figures.

I just went from a Denon AVR-4306 ( RF-83s / RC-64) to the Denon doing it's preamp thing while adding an XPA-3 for the front and using the Denon to power the rears (RS-7s). It made a substantial improvement. So much so that that I bought an XPA-5 to do the whole 5. setup. Then I went out and bought a Onkyo PR-SC5507 pre/pro to use with the XPA-5.

The biggest difference, bar none, was the addition of the first amp using the original AVR. Now I have tried the 4306 with other amps before but I was using Belles at the time and in a much better room. With a crappy room and with the -83s the amp was what made them come alive. I sold the 4306 just to re-coup some bucks (should da/could da used it in the bedroom) and the XPA-3 is sitting idle.

Buy the XPA-5 or whatever brand multi-channel amp is available to you at a good price and get on with your bad self. Later on pick up 'last year's' model of pre/pro and then you can have options.......

[Youthman]

Here are my thoughts and a few questions:

1. Do you have the new RF-82 II system setup or have you just ordered it?

2. Give it some time, see how you like it. Enjoy it without worrying should I upgrade or not.

3. If then you feel that your receiver isn't performing to it's potenial, an amp would definitely wake them up. It will add depth to the bottom end, clarity to the top end, better separation of instruments, etc.

4. If you do decide to get an amp, look around for used. You can always use a 3 ch amp and let your Yamaha drive the surrounds.

Not sure how much the Denon 1911 is (I'm assuming that is a new model), there are great deals on used receivers. I picked mine up for $400, guy paid $1200 1 year prior to me buying it from him. 140 watts x 7 (well....on paper that is). After reading the actual test bench scores from a speaker magazine, I found out in 5 channel it drops to 100 watts/ch and with 7 channels driven, it drops to a whopping 55 watts/ch. Yamaha "claims" it is 140 x 7 but that is just not the case and it was a pretty high end receiver.

It has plenty of power to drive 5 speakers though. I used it to power my RF-83 system and it did it well. Now that I've added the Parasound 220 x 5 amp, the RF-83's arrive on the scene with authority.

[mharper3]

Yeah I just purchased the rf 82 II on Monday. They show up on Thursday. So yeah I hear your point and I knew someone was going to make that point. Haven't even got them and I am worrying about them under performing. I am aware of that the reson why I am asking is this is my first "real" system and honestly I probably wouldn't know if it was under performing or not. I'm new to all of this.

So I guess what my plan is... I will pick up the amp and then like USRNET said get a pre amp later on. Is there any suggestions on an amp? I have seen a lot of people with the emotiva's. I am open to suggestions. Is eBay the best option for picking something up used or is anyone else aware of any other sites. Clearance or scratch and dent?

Thanks for the help guys.

[jrod]

harper,

First of all, welcome to the madness!

craigslist... local and otherwise. Check them incessantly.

audiogon.com is a great site for used gear. It's like ebay, but for audio gear. People have ratings, and you can really pick and choose who you want to deal with. Emotiva is very highly regarded (especially with this group), but there are TONS of options when it comes to amps. Some other respectable brands would include: B&K, Parasound, Outlaw (obviously), Rotel, Arcam... Seriously, just the tip of the iceberg.

If you're looking to buy used, a couple of things:

1) have $$$ on hand, if a great deal pops up you wanna be ready to pounce! Great deals in this hobby rarely last long.

2) Do as much research as possible BEFORE you are ready to buy. That way you know exactly what you are looking for, it's easy to get overwhelmed.

3) Set a price/amp and STAY FOCUSED!! It's easy to start looking at $400-500 3-channel amps....then by the end of the day you're looking at a $3000 7-channel monster.

Jrod's tips for used audio gear buying. Good luck, and have fun. That's what this hobby is about......and impressing your friends.

Jrod

[Youthman]

Jrod is spot on with all of his suggestions. Nicely said Jrod.

As far as brands, Emotiva, Acurus (these are older amps), B&K, Parasound (on the more expensive side) would all make great amps.

My personal preference is around 200 watts/ch for a separate amp but there are many that have lower 100 watt external amps and love them. It's not so much about the wattage as it is clean power and amps having separate power supplies.

As stated, have fun with this. Don't stress about it. Enjoy what you have and keep your eye out on a steal of a deal, then upgrade to an amp.

Keep us updated.

[mharper3]

Jrod and youthman you guys are a lot of help thanks. Price wise I think I have settled on an amp. Emotiva xpa - 5. I have heard great reviews on them and they are out of my price range. Now for the whole preamp. This is one area that just is overwhelming. Since I am new to this hobby I don't really understand the difference of all the options out there. Av receivers. Stereo receivers, preamp, pre/pro. Maybe a lot of it is I am just not familiar with the lingo yet. For now if I used mu av receiver as a preamp. O I loose certain functions of my receiver? How does the amp make up for the lose if any? Please explain in simple terms thanks. A lot to learn in my new found hobby but I love it!

[SuBXeRo]

Good choice on the XPA-5, i have one too and i love it. I had a denon 1707 pushing my rf-3's (older version of the rf-82's) and they had about 100 watts a channel as well. I will say that they sounded fantastic. I upgraded to externals because I like component style. Amps will last for years, good ones that it. The processors are what get outdated and need to be upgraded over the years. It can be very confusing to know exactly what you want in a processor. I am slowly learning as i go along and use the different options what everything does. Wikipedia will be your friend to figure out what all the different things means. Repetition will help as you will see it over and over again. As always, ask questions! Unfortunately, your receiver doesnt have multi channel pre amp outs. If you had that, you would be able to keep your current receiver and buy the xpa-5 to be your amp. That would in effect, leave your receiver to do the processing and the amp to do the powering. Emotiva's processor the UMC-1 is ok but still glitchy. Waiting for the XMC-1 may be a better idea but it will be more expensive especially if big dan over there decides to keep the video processing integrated and not sell it seperate. The UMC-1 is a great deal for what you get, it really is. I have it, i notice the glitches but i am confident that in due time, they will work out the software kinks. I bought the UMC-1 knowing all of this too, and i am rather happy with it so far. I find it quite simple and easy to use, you have to get used to the interface and how things are setup but its easy after that. Plus, if you buy it now, you get 100 emobux there to use on their products. Also, you get a 40% discount on a newer processor if you buy a processor from them and upgrade later on.

[mharper3]

Well it looks like I will need to be getting a receiver first then. I found an onkyo tx-sr875 on clearance or $650 and a onkyo Tx-nr808 for $620. I believe the "808 is newer but I think the the 865 was a higher end receiver they are the price range I am looking for. Are they good purchases? Or would something like the denon 1911 what I have previously been looking at be better?

[SuBXeRo]

from the looks of it from what i looked at, the denon seems a bit lack luster with options. the onkyo Tx-nr808 for $620 seems like a great deal from what i can tell. i think either of those onkyos would be ok. Having the multi channel preamp is great because like i said, in the future, you can always buy an external amp if you are finding that they are power hungry!

[mharper3]

Alright between subxero and the guy I talked to at vanns I am sold and the results go like this. I am getting the onkyo tx-rn808. For $620 I think that is a great deal. I will wait and see how it sounds the guy at vanns said at 135w per channel I would probably have enough power. Granted that 135 x 7 is only on paper but them again I will probably upgrade to the emotiva xpa5 later on next year when I the new system paid off. Maybe I won't need the amp but my guess is adding the xpa would be a noticeable upgrade. Do your guys agree with me?

[Zen Traveler]

double post

[Zen Traveler]

Well it looks like I will need to be getting a receiver first then. I found an onkyo tx-sr875 on clearance or $650 and a onkyo Tx-nr808 for $620. I believe the "808 is newer but I think the the 865 was a higher end receiver they are the price range I am looking for. Are they good purchases? Or would something like the denon 1911 what I have previously been looking at be better?

I have no opinion of the build quality of the onkyos and the SR-875 is an older unit but the THX Ultra II spec means it has beefier power supplies that could drive your speakers without needing an external amp, whereas the other AVRs weigh considerably less and aren't rated to drive speakers with impedance dips down to 3.2 Ohms in a multi-speaker configuration.

[mharper3]

I am planning on buying an external amp in the future anyway so I was looking at what would have better sound and it was recommended to me to get the newer of the amps where the 875 was way back in 2007. I thought the it was a good point. Maybe I am wrong. I would love is someone could correct me I am. Ether way I think they will both be good receivers.

[willland]

I am planning on buying an external amp in the future anyway so I was looking at what would have better sound and it was recommended to me to get the newer of the amps where the 875 was way back in 2007. I thought the it was a good point. Maybe I am wrong. I would love is someone could correct me I am. Ether way I think they will both be good receivers.

Sorry to complicate things more but here are (2) more options from a reputable authorized online merchant. These higher end Onkyo's have better power supplies, better DAC's, and a better preamp section than the low and mid level models.

Factory refurbished.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR876BLK/Onkyo/TX-SR876-THX-Ultra2-Plus-140-watts-channel-7.1-Receiver/1.html

New, old stock.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR876BLKA/Onkyo/TX-SR876-THX-Ultra2-Plus-140-watts-channel-7.1-Receiver-NEW/1.html

Another thing to point out, the Onkyo TX-NR808 weighs 40.3 pounds while the Onkyo TX-SR876 weighs 50.9 pounds. Usually that weight difference is in power supply. Just a thought.

Bill

[Timothydn]

IMHO...I would focus on getting an amp that could satisfiy your front soundstage...Seeing as how your rears don't work as hard (unless listening to SACDs) an XPA-3 would be a drastic improvement.

[mharper3]

Ok now you got my attention. My thing is I am not really worried about power supply because I will probably get an amp later on. A xpa3 or xpa 5 Timothy make a good point. So my main objective is to get a good receiver with the best sound quality. Then add an amp later for power. Does that make sense or am I going at this wrong. For the price on the refurbished that is very tempting but with processors and all how does it compare to the 808. Kowing that the 808 has a little less power I still went with the 808 over the 875 because of being newer and I think it would have a better end result when I throw the amp on. One with the option of the 876 in the mix..... Is that the better option knowing that I will be getting a amp shortly?

[Zen Traveler]

Fwiw, I have what's listed in my signature being driven by a Denon AVR 4806 THX Ultra II and don't need an external amp in my > 2,000 cu ft Home Theater. YMMV.

[Youthman]

Since I am new to this hobby I don't really understand the difference of all the options out there. Av receivers. Stereo receivers, preamp, pre/pro.

I'll try to make it simple...

Option 1: Receiver + Speakers

Receiver = Preamp/Processor/Amplifier all in one unit with one single power supply.

Stereo Receiver = 2 channels used for stereo listening (music), non - surround material

5.1 Receiver = 5 speakers (Left, Right, Center, Right Surround, Left Surround and subwoofer). The .1 is the sub. So a 5.1 is 5 speakers and 1 sub. A 5.2 system would be 5 speakers and two subs.

7.1 Receiver = Adds back surrounds, used for larger rooms. Most current market receivers are 7.1 but you don't have to have 7 speakers to use it. Your receiver will turn off any unused channels so there is nothing wrong with a 5.1 system on a 7.1 receiver

Pros:
Less expensive than separates
Can be used as a Pre/Pro (Preamp + Processor) with an external amp if your receiver has Preouts

Cons:
With an "All-in-One unit, you only have one power supply to provide power to the Processor and to each Channel of the Amp. Driven hard, the amp can "run out of gas" and begin clipping and distorting.

Option 2: Receiver as Pre/Pro + Separate Amp

To save money, you can get a 3 channel amp and drive your front soundstage and use the receiver to power your surrounds since they don't receive a ton of info.

Pros:
Cost effective and less expensive than separates.
Adding an amp relieves the receiver of providing power to speakers so it can more efficiently do the surround processing and video processing
Adds more bass, cleaner highs, lots of headroom, less likely of clipping, better separation of musical instruments

Cons:
Need extra space in your cabinet since you have two components and multichannel amps are quite large and heavy (mine is 80 lbs)

Option 3: Separates

Pros:
Since each component has a separate power supply and is "separated" from the other components (preamp, processor, amplifier), and each component is only responsible for that one thing, it can provide a cleaner sound.
Over time, you can still keep your amp (power doesn't really change) and upgrade your Preamp and Processor or Pre/Pro to the new sound formats.

Cons:
Lots more money to go this route. Correction....This can be a lot more money to go this route, depending on which brand you are considering. Emotiva offers one of the most affordable Pre/Pros with their UMC-1 but the last I read, they were still trying to work out a lot of bugs in it. You would have to check out the Emo forums or ask someone here if they have gotten the kinks worked out yet.

Well, that is Michael's Wikipedia version for ya. Hope that helps.

Ask all the questions you want. We were all where you were at one point and asked most of the same questions you are.

Take your time, look for great deals in the used market and save a ton of cash which allows you to make more upgrades sooner.

[Timothydn]

Couldn't say it better myself!